KTM to file for Bankruptcy/ Self Restructuring on Friday

soggy
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12/5/2024 9:34am
Team403 wrote:
Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over...

Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over time.   I am personally struggling with how I allocate my time between the 2… anyone else see this?

Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t I just buy from them?  I’m not so loyal to moto manufacturers I’d buy whatever product they made just because. 

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Spoonguy
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12/5/2024 9:42am

The world is on shakey ground right now, look at France and South Korea's problems.

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Team403
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12/5/2024 9:44am
Team403 wrote:
Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over...

Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over time.   I am personally struggling with how I allocate my time between the 2… anyone else see this?

soggy wrote:
Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t...

Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t I just buy from them?  I’m not so loyal to moto manufacturers I’d buy whatever product they made just because. 

Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a KTM and the dealer which I like carries both motorcycles and bicycles.   I could have easily just pulled that trigger - I assume I was there target market.  I however did some more research and went a different direction that suited me better.  Bottom line I do think there is some synergy there.  Plus think about the psychological effect of looking at $7K emtb - it kinda makes the $11k dirt bike seem not so bad if that makes sense…

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Ob917
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12/5/2024 9:45am
Team403 wrote:
Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over...

Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over time.   I am personally struggling with how I allocate my time between the 2… anyone else see this?

soggy wrote:
Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t...

Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t I just buy from them?  I’m not so loyal to moto manufacturers I’d buy whatever product they made just because. 

All these Moto companies that built E bikes like Yamaha KTM even intense. All those bikes suck big time compared to a real mountain bike companies bike.

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The Shop

soggy
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12/5/2024 9:47am
Team403 wrote:
Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over...

Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over time.   I am personally struggling with how I allocate my time between the 2… anyone else see this?

soggy wrote:
Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t...

Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t I just buy from them?  I’m not so loyal to moto manufacturers I’d buy whatever product they made just because. 

Team403 wrote:
Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a...

Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a KTM and the dealer which I like carries both motorcycles and bicycles.   I could have easily just pulled that trigger - I assume I was there target market.  I however did some more research and went a different direction that suited me better.  Bottom line I do think there is some synergy there.  Plus think about the psychological effect of looking at $7K emtb - it kinda makes the $11k dirt bike seem not so bad if that makes sense…

I see what your saying. To me all the moto brands making e bikes are pretty unimaginative.  Like you said when you do some research there are better options. 

1
12/5/2024 9:49am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 10:06am
Team403 wrote:
Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over...

Well on one hand I think the EMTB integration makes sense as I do believe that moto guys will be drawn or driven to emtbs over time.   I am personally struggling with how I allocate my time between the 2… anyone else see this?

soggy wrote:
Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t...

Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t I just buy from them?  I’m not so loyal to moto manufacturers I’d buy whatever product they made just because. 

Team403 wrote:
Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a...

Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a KTM and the dealer which I like carries both motorcycles and bicycles.   I could have easily just pulled that trigger - I assume I was there target market.  I however did some more research and went a different direction that suited me better.  Bottom line I do think there is some synergy there.  Plus think about the psychological effect of looking at $7K emtb - it kinda makes the $11k dirt bike seem not so bad if that makes sense…

Except the KTM bicycle brand doesn't belong to Pierer (it was split off decades ago), so they have to tie it in with their two niche sub brands - brands that they are putting a concerted effort to market as not KTM. So viewing the bicycle business as a branding loyalty exercise is a misplaced strategy from step 1.

1
Team403
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12/5/2024 10:06am
soggy wrote:
Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t...

Mountain bike industry has been over priced and over saturated for a decade now. There’s A bunch reputable brands that make Good bikes already. Why wouldn’t I just buy from them?  I’m not so loyal to moto manufacturers I’d buy whatever product they made just because. 

Team403 wrote:
Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a...

Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a KTM and the dealer which I like carries both motorcycles and bicycles.   I could have easily just pulled that trigger - I assume I was there target market.  I however did some more research and went a different direction that suited me better.  Bottom line I do think there is some synergy there.  Plus think about the psychological effect of looking at $7K emtb - it kinda makes the $11k dirt bike seem not so bad if that makes sense…

Except the KTM bicycle brand doesn't belong to Pierer (it was split off decades ago), so they have to tie it in with their two niche...

Except the KTM bicycle brand doesn't belong to Pierer (it was split off decades ago), so they have to tie it in with their two niche sub brands - brands that they are putting a concerted effort to market as not KTM. So viewing the bicycle business as a branding loyalty exercise is a misplaced strategy from step 1.

Yeah I hear what you are saying but by that time I saw no major diff between the brands GG , HUS, and KTM so just figured they were all the same - in other words I didn’t devalue them because they didn’t say KTM.  

12/5/2024 10:16am Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 10:21am
Team403 wrote:
Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a...

Using myself as an example - when I first considered an emtb - knowing nothing I was drawn to the PMG product as I race a KTM and the dealer which I like carries both motorcycles and bicycles.   I could have easily just pulled that trigger - I assume I was there target market.  I however did some more research and went a different direction that suited me better.  Bottom line I do think there is some synergy there.  Plus think about the psychological effect of looking at $7K emtb - it kinda makes the $11k dirt bike seem not so bad if that makes sense…

Except the KTM bicycle brand doesn't belong to Pierer (it was split off decades ago), so they have to tie it in with their two niche...

Except the KTM bicycle brand doesn't belong to Pierer (it was split off decades ago), so they have to tie it in with their two niche sub brands - brands that they are putting a concerted effort to market as not KTM. So viewing the bicycle business as a branding loyalty exercise is a misplaced strategy from step 1.

Team403 wrote:
Yeah I hear what you are saying but by that time I saw no major diff between the brands GG , HUS, and KTM so just...

Yeah I hear what you are saying but by that time I saw no major diff between the brands GG , HUS, and KTM so just figured they were all the same - in other words I didn’t devalue them because they didn’t say KTM.  

If it requires the consumer to ignore marquee brands but then tie the marketing back together at the product level to navigate, it probably isn't a successful branding strategy.

3
12/5/2024 12:26pm
Spoonguy wrote:

The world is on shakey ground right now, look at France and South Korea's problems.

Middle East and Ukraine say hi

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MxAddic
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12/5/2024 12:30pm
ac
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Mototech853
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12/5/2024 12:40pm
Ob917 wrote:
All these Moto companies that built E bikes like Yamaha KTM even intense. All those bikes suck big time compared to a real mountain bike companies...

All these Moto companies that built E bikes like Yamaha KTM even intense. All those bikes suck big time compared to a real mountain bike companies bike.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone refer to Intense as not being a real mountain bike company. I haven’t followed the MTB industry for the last 8 or so years. Did something change?

4
12/5/2024 12:49pm
MxAddic wrote:
ac

And also cut racing. CF Moto and Argo are rumored to be looking to purchase.

image 814
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Ob917
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12/5/2024 1:11pm
Ob917 wrote:
All these Moto companies that built E bikes like Yamaha KTM even intense. All those bikes suck big time compared to a real mountain bike companies...

All these Moto companies that built E bikes like Yamaha KTM even intense. All those bikes suck big time compared to a real mountain bike companies bike.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone refer to Intense as not being a real mountain bike company. I haven’t followed the MTB industry for the...

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone refer to Intense as not being a real mountain bike company. I haven’t followed the MTB industry for the last 8 or so years. Did something change?

They have not been what they were for a while now. Their E bike is not exactly awesome. Only reason they sell any is because they can be bought cheap. Old school stuff 

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BAREIN
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12/5/2024 1:32pm

Bummer to hear about Arctic Cat. For years they had Tucker Hibbert who was like a RC to snocross and now they are down to not even racing

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Snail
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12/5/2024 1:35pm

MtB stuff is funny though. 

It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. 

Our need to always have something new is driving prices up and companies  to suffer. 

I rode my 2014 bike last week and have a similar 2023 enduro/all mountain model. While on paper the 23 should be leaps and bounds ahead based on premium components, weight and geometry. 

They ride different, but it’s only marginally better. 

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Hammer 663s
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12/5/2024 1:54pm
BAREIN wrote:
Bummer to hear about Arctic Cat. For years they had Tucker Hibbert who was like a RC to snocross and now they are down to not...

Bummer to hear about Arctic Cat. For years they had Tucker Hibbert who was like a RC to snocross and now they are down to not even racing

Shit. We think WE are a niche sport! 

4
Ob917
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12/5/2024 1:54pm
Snail wrote:
MtB stuff is funny though. It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. Our need to always have something...

MtB stuff is funny though. 

It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. 

Our need to always have something new is driving prices up and companies  to suffer. 

I rode my 2014 bike last week and have a similar 2023 enduro/all mountain model. While on paper the 23 should be leaps and bounds ahead based on premium components, weight and geometry. 

They ride different, but it’s only marginally better. 

Getting off topic. 
Some people think their 2015 ktm is not better than a 2025. I don’t agree. 

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soggy
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12/5/2024 2:05pm
Snail wrote:
MtB stuff is funny though. It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. Our need to always have something...

MtB stuff is funny though. 

It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. 

Our need to always have something new is driving prices up and companies  to suffer. 

I rode my 2014 bike last week and have a similar 2023 enduro/all mountain model. While on paper the 23 should be leaps and bounds ahead based on premium components, weight and geometry. 

They ride different, but it’s only marginally better. 

the same could be said for moto bikes.. kind of exemplified by Keefer's re-test of the 08 crf450 compared to todays.  changes aren't always advancements.

2
MxAddic
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12/5/2024 2:15pm
And also cut racing. CF Moto and Argo are rumored to be looking to purchase.

And also cut racing. CF Moto and Argo are rumored to be looking to purchase.

image 814

Not good news they won't be going racing. That is what you do to save a company.

1
BAREIN
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12/5/2024 2:35pm
BAREIN wrote:
Bummer to hear about Arctic Cat. For years they had Tucker Hibbert who was like a RC to snocross and now they are down to not...

Bummer to hear about Arctic Cat. For years they had Tucker Hibbert who was like a RC to snocross and now they are down to not even racing

Shit. We think WE are a niche sport! 

Yes, way more niche than MOTO. It's pretty cool to watch the pros in person though and how good they can handle a sled. There was a ton of money going into snocross  when it was at it's peak. Now it seems to be dying

1
12/5/2024 3:26pm
Snail wrote:
MtB stuff is funny though. It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. Our need to always have something...

MtB stuff is funny though. 

It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. 

Our need to always have something new is driving prices up and companies  to suffer. 

I rode my 2014 bike last week and have a similar 2023 enduro/all mountain model. While on paper the 23 should be leaps and bounds ahead based on premium components, weight and geometry. 

They ride different, but it’s only marginally better. 

soggy wrote:

the same could be said for moto bikes.. kind of exemplified by Keefer's re-test of the 08 crf450 compared to todays.  changes aren't always advancements.

When was the last significant advance in suspension, KYB SSS?

soggy
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12/5/2024 5:05pm
Snail wrote:
MtB stuff is funny though. It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. Our need to always have something...

MtB stuff is funny though. 

It’s mostly the same stuff over and over again. Tweak geometry one way. The. Tweak it back. 

Our need to always have something new is driving prices up and companies  to suffer. 

I rode my 2014 bike last week and have a similar 2023 enduro/all mountain model. While on paper the 23 should be leaps and bounds ahead based on premium components, weight and geometry. 

They ride different, but it’s only marginally better. 

soggy wrote:

the same could be said for moto bikes.. kind of exemplified by Keefer's re-test of the 08 crf450 compared to todays.  changes aren't always advancements.

When was the last significant advance in suspension, KYB SSS?

I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has changed on mtn bikes some since then. But both are constantly tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc. 

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Ob917
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12/5/2024 5:08pm Edited Date/Time 12/5/2024 5:13pm

There is this stuff called live valve. It’s kind of cool. Some of the newer technology is the high and low speed rebound and high and low speed compression adjustment plus  A  separate  bottom out circuit it’s adjustable on some shocks. The stuff always changing. But the big changes lately are active electronic circuits. On a fly changing of the valving 


 sorry this stuff is way off-topic

1
12/5/2024 5:14pm
soggy wrote:

the same could be said for moto bikes.. kind of exemplified by Keefer's re-test of the 08 crf450 compared to todays.  changes aren't always advancements.

When was the last significant advance in suspension, KYB SSS?

soggy wrote:
I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has...

I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has changed on mtn bikes some since then. But both are constantly tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc. 

Motocross bikes have also been tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc, all small changes but no significant improvement.

1
soggy
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12/5/2024 5:21pm

When was the last significant advance in suspension, KYB SSS?

soggy wrote:
I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has...

I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has changed on mtn bikes some since then. But both are constantly tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc. 

Motocross bikes have also been tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc, all small changes but no significant improvement.

Yea reread my last sentence. 

12/5/2024 5:31pm
soggy wrote:
I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has...

I guess?  I don’t think mtn bike forks and shocks have had any crazy advancements since the SSS came out (as far as technology). Travel has changed on mtn bikes some since then. But both are constantly tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc. 

Motocross bikes have also been tweaking geometry linkage, angles etc, all small changes but no significant improvement.

soggy wrote:

Yea reread my last sentence. 

I'm getting lazy!

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early
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12/5/2024 5:39pm

Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and introducing e-assist is like going from 2 stroke to high tech 4 strokes. Things have leveled off a bit, but the moto company's e-bikes are about a design cycle behind the bike companies, if they came out 5 years earlier they may have had something to offer folks to jump brands. 

Having said that there may be a bicycle company the equivalent of KTM find themselves in a similar predicament in the near future. We are in the middle of a market correction, bikes and motorcycles are 1 thing if the general public finds itself upside down on bigger ticket items like car and house loans this will seem quaint.

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Team403
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12/5/2024 6:24pm
early wrote:
Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and...

Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and introducing e-assist is like going from 2 stroke to high tech 4 strokes. Things have leveled off a bit, but the moto company's e-bikes are about a design cycle behind the bike companies, if they came out 5 years earlier they may have had something to offer folks to jump brands. 

Having said that there may be a bicycle company the equivalent of KTM find themselves in a similar predicament in the near future. We are in the middle of a market correction, bikes and motorcycles are 1 thing if the general public finds itself upside down on bigger ticket items like car and house loans this will seem quaint.

I don’t know but it sure seems like the margins on a high end MTB would be exponentially higher than a dirtbike.  The development and complexity of a DB seems way more costly.  

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soggy
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12/5/2024 6:31pm Edited Date/Time 12/6/2024 7:36am
early wrote:
Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and...

Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and introducing e-assist is like going from 2 stroke to high tech 4 strokes. Things have leveled off a bit, but the moto company's e-bikes are about a design cycle behind the bike companies, if they came out 5 years earlier they may have had something to offer folks to jump brands. 

Having said that there may be a bicycle company the equivalent of KTM find themselves in a similar predicament in the near future. We are in the middle of a market correction, bikes and motorcycles are 1 thing if the general public finds itself upside down on bigger ticket items like car and house loans this will seem quaint.

Team403 wrote:
I don’t know but it sure seems like the margins on a high end MTB would be exponentially higher than a dirtbike.  The development and complexity...

I don’t know but it sure seems like the margins on a high end MTB would be exponentially higher than a dirtbike.  The development and complexity of a DB seems way more costly.  

They are. Retail Markup is around 50%(thanks @8tensolutions for the correction), from what I remember when I was working at a place that sold them. 

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Team403
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12/5/2024 6:37pm
early wrote:
Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and...

Mountain bikes from 2005-2025 is like moto from 1975 to 2005. Bigger wheels, longer travel and much better suspension, 1X drives with wide range cassettes, and introducing e-assist is like going from 2 stroke to high tech 4 strokes. Things have leveled off a bit, but the moto company's e-bikes are about a design cycle behind the bike companies, if they came out 5 years earlier they may have had something to offer folks to jump brands. 

Having said that there may be a bicycle company the equivalent of KTM find themselves in a similar predicament in the near future. We are in the middle of a market correction, bikes and motorcycles are 1 thing if the general public finds itself upside down on bigger ticket items like car and house loans this will seem quaint.

Team403 wrote:
I don’t know but it sure seems like the margins on a high end MTB would be exponentially higher than a dirtbike.  The development and complexity...

I don’t know but it sure seems like the margins on a high end MTB would be exponentially higher than a dirtbike.  The development and complexity of a DB seems way more costly.  

soggy wrote:

They are. Retail Markup is around 50%(thanks @8tensolutions for the correction), from what I remember when I was working at a place that sold them. 

So how do go an F up margins like that 😂

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