Texas Thoughts and Idea

Edited Date/Time 1/27/2012 1:18pm
Just an observation from Texas. This is an instance when the AMA needs to take their rule book and insert it into their shredder. This is perfect example of where the riders should be allowed to receive an IV between motos. This in my opinion would do two things, first it would keep the riders much more safe and give the fans what they paid to see. It is not physically possible to keep hydrated properly in those conditions. The FIM allows for this yet the AMA does not and that is a flaw. I have always found this rule ridiculous and have never understood it, and I have seen other events where it is needed. In fact just go back one year ago to the Texas national. Back in the day it was often the Troy Ohio race at Kenworthy’s that needed the exception.

The other thing I find interesting is the idiots on here ripping on riders for their lack of fitness and cardio. Most of you are fools and truly do not understand the way a body works. You need to realize that some riders individual natural makeup limits their bodies to certain restrictions. The top guys are fit and train their asses off, however some have the natural ability to go further than others. This doesn’t mean they are out of shape or do not do their work, it means that their natural genetic makeup allows for only so much. In extreme circumstances most of you need to sit back and just applaud the riders for making it through an extremely difficult race, because most humans in this world could not operate at a high level in such extreme conditions.

Back to my point, the AMA needs to take a serious look at this rule and change it.
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Yaya
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6/6/2010 10:30am Edited Date/Time 6/6/2010 10:30am
Look at Ice Trey, boy fell out worst than an countrytime wedding. Ive never seen him that red before in that picture that Gibby shot of him, man Im surprised he survived till the end of the moto. Even Tyla from South Africa said on the podium that this was the hottest conditions he has ever raced in.
gt80rider
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6/6/2010 10:32am
"This doesn’t mean they are out of shape or do not do their work, it means that their natural genetic makeup allows for only so much."

my genetic makeup sticks me in the B class eternally...... should i be allowed a 3 lap head start and run pro class??
observer
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6/6/2010 10:41am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 11:20pm
You make some goods points/explanations here "oldschool", but as another oldschooler, I can't help but reflect on the days of old. How did they do it/deal with it? They just toughed it out(for 40 min + 2 laps, no less!)dealt with it.
I seem to remember the riders cutting holes on there jerseys, mechs spraying water on the riders as they raced by, etc. The riders with the ability to deal with the heat better, rose to the top in that particular race. Now, when the circus goes up to Mt Morris(is it next?)PA, the competition should be leveled. I expect with the temps relatively mild, the racing to be very competitve, with extreme temps taken out of the equation.
WhipMeister
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6/6/2010 10:48am
I think that rule came in the mid 90's after, I believe, someone cried foul after I think it was Doug Henry getting some IV fluids. Seems to ring a bell. Dumb, knee jerk rule IMO.

The Shop

6/6/2010 10:52am
I did the 40+2 motos and yes we did swiss cheese our jerseys up. I also know that we were not going as fast as the guys are now, and our 125's didn't have the power and suspension that they do now so these current riders are at a higher level than we were. I felt it is a rule that should have changed before and should still be changed now.
6/6/2010 10:53am
No, the rule was always there. DH had an exemption for a medical condition.
6/6/2010 11:18am
They could just use a Camel Back with a spike jammed into their arm that would drip throughout the moto.
WhKnuckle
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6/6/2010 11:31am
A body's heat reaction is almost a crap shoot. I routinely run 5 miles in the mornings, usually out the door around 5 AM. This morning, I ran a little later when it was a little hotter and did only 3 and thought I was going to die (this is in Houston). Two days ago my son and I did 5 miles late in the evening and it was no problem. I remember one hot Hangtown race that just about did Tim Ferry in, and there's no way it was hotter at Hangtown as it is routinely in Florida. It's just ridiculous to have a rule that a rider can't get an IV to rehydrate between motos on a hot day. Why? What's the point of that rule?
englishman
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6/6/2010 11:59am
Make more sense to not have a national in Texas when it's 100 degrees ?
SteveS
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6/6/2010 12:12pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2010 12:13pm
The simplest reason for the no IV rule is a medical liability one. If you are so dehydrated that the only way to rehydrate you is an IV, you are too sick to be allowed to race another moto after only a couple of hours.

That and IV rehydration is itself not without peril in an unmonitored layman's situation.
flarider
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6/6/2010 12:15pm
Just curious, does anyone think it isn't or hasn't been happening anyway?
indy_maico
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6/6/2010 12:42pm
If you watch the 'One Chance to Win' dvd on the famous Battle of New Orleans you'll see how they did it old school in the heat and humidity with 40 min motos.

Hannah had to leave to go to the hospital with heat masturbation after the first moto, and said that all that told him was that he had to get in shape to run with the big dogs.

That's the way it was, and the way it should be.

On another front regarding Texas, is that the best they can do for an outdoor mx track?

People rip on Kenworthy's as being a poor excuse for an outdoor track, but that Texas track looks the same to me (without the standing water, of course Tongue )



6/6/2010 1:32pm
I think they should be allowed to take out blood from their body at certain times of high white blood cell counts, store it, then replace it between motos.


That would be a good idea right? I'm the first one to think of this right? RIGHT?
DDub8
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6/6/2010 1:38pm
Would all racers have the option to get an IV between motos or would it be limited to the factory guys that can afford it?

Indy: start a new thread to talk about the track issue. This certainly isn't the best we have to offer in TX but it's the one that was willing to jump through the hoops (tentacles?) necessary to host a national.
6/6/2010 1:40pm
The other guys on 2 wheels do it too, so motocross riders should be able to.

and flarider: most likely yes.
6/6/2010 1:41pm
DDub8 wrote:
Would all racers have the option to get an IV between motos or would it be limited to the factory guys that can afford it? Indy...
Would all racers have the option to get an IV between motos or would it be limited to the factory guys that can afford it?

Indy: start a new thread to talk about the track issue. This certainly isn't the best we have to offer in TX but it's the one that was willing to jump through the hoops (tentacles?) necessary to host a national.
It's a big health risk as well, unless everyone shares a needle.
6/6/2010 1:48pm
Old school..I had totally forgot the ama banned IVs. Now that you mention it I remember in San Fransisco 2009(I think it was SF?) JLaw went to the hospital after practice for a check up because he wasn't feeling well and the Dr's gave him an IV so the ama wouldn't let him race that night. Just another stupid rule that protects and helps nobody. I actually posted yesterday that most guys were probably getting fluid IVs between moto's not even thinking about that rule. It just doesn't make sense that they would allow racers to race when with humidity the heat index is pushing 120 but they won't allow the riders a great way to re-hydrate between motos. Seems to me the fluid IVs would protect their riders. Especially when heat exhaustion and dehydration can easily kill.
6/6/2010 2:01pm
Old school..I had totally forgot the ama banned IVs. Now that you mention it I remember in San Fransisco 2009(I think it was SF?) JLaw went...
Old school..I had totally forgot the ama banned IVs. Now that you mention it I remember in San Fransisco 2009(I think it was SF?) JLaw went to the hospital after practice for a check up because he wasn't feeling well and the Dr's gave him an IV so the ama wouldn't let him race that night. Just another stupid rule that protects and helps nobody. I actually posted yesterday that most guys were probably getting fluid IVs between moto's not even thinking about that rule. It just doesn't make sense that they would allow racers to race when with humidity the heat index is pushing 120 but they won't allow the riders a great way to re-hydrate between motos. Seems to me the fluid IVs would protect their riders. Especially when heat exhaustion and dehydration can easily kill.
I don't think any of the riders know that there are advantages to adding certain substances intravenously.
Jabjr222
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6/6/2010 2:25pm
IMO, the riders should be allowed IV's between motos and I assumed it was the norm. We are in the 21st century and re hydrating the body isn't really that complicated. Besides, football players get IV's all the time at half time, even college.

But you can't compare a 40 minute moto back then to what they run now. I don't think it can be argued that the guys are in much better shape now than they used to be. Training technology and supplementation has come too far.

But comparing a 40 minute moto on the tracks back then to what they do now, not a fair comparison at all.

But bottom line is, a guy has to want it. They have to be able to continue pushing their body beyond the point where it wants to shut down. All the training in the world can go out the window if everything else isn't working right.
hartebreak
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6/6/2010 2:40pm
I think allowing and encouraging IV's is going to be very detramental to not only the riders health but the sport. When a body starts shutting down or hurting/ cramping up it is an automatic trigger that tells the body to slow down because it is hurt or needs rest. Look at all the pro football players who's bodies are completely shot because they got a cortizone shot in their knee because the pain was too much and they couldnt miss the big game. Sure it makes the pain go away and then the player goes out and tears up his knee and is a gimp for the rest of his life. Getting dehydrated is a natural result of heavy exercise and the body starts shutting things down in an effort to force the person to stop doing whatever it is they are doing. Once we allow doctors to start messing with these guys for the sake of better performance I really see career/life ending injuries sky-rocketing. I think if a rider exerts himself to the point where a doc must put in an IV then that rider should be medically DQed.
Xavier
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6/6/2010 2:40pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2010 3:07pm
It was the pre-semi trucks area.

Everybody was working out of box-vans and there was close to no privacy.

I remember seing a photo of Doug with his mobile IV or something.

Some people argued to the AMA that such scene was giving a questionnable image of the sport.

Mitch - Doug was competing against his guys - Ryno I guess?- was going : "if it's an advantage, then how about every rider hanging in the pits between motos with a needle planted in the arm... Pretty cool vision, eh ??"

The AMA thought he was right and nobody, even Doug, was gonna be allowed to use IV's.

On a case like Texas, conditions were extreme and if it was another sport, athletes would have been getting IV's in the privacy of the semi's or RV's (and some probably did get IV's at Freestone, how do you control that ?).

It would probably be wise to seek medical opinions about it and go with what doctors say rather than having concerns about the "image" of the sport.

If IV's are legal in Olympic sports medical rules and beneficial to the athlete's health, it should be OK for MX.

The specific effort of MX in an extreme heat may require it for those guys' bodies to stay safe.

Doctors should know.

If they say it's preferable, just rule it can't be done in a public. Seems like it should be supervised by a doctor or nurse, right ? Would have a definite impact on the paddock's routine operations and still sounds kind of weird...
6/6/2010 2:48pm
Isn't it illegal to have non qualified individuals give IVs?

Could be completely wrong though.
observer
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6/6/2010 3:09pm
I suppose the sanctioning body(AMA in this case), could issue A bag(1 ea rider), same amount of fluid, same mftr, same everything...for ever racer at the outset of the event.
Of course, then you get into who administers it? Qualified to be sticking needles in peoples arms? etc, etc. I dunno...a lot to think about there. Probably could be done though with reaonable people involved. But therein lies the problem...Dry
WhKnuckle
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6/6/2010 3:12pm
TripleFive wrote:
Isn't it illegal to have non qualified individuals give IVs?

Could be completely wrong though.
I think you can actually give the IV barely under the skin - I don't think you have to actually get it in a vein. When they do it in a hospital, they put it in a vein because there's an assumption that other meds or possibly whole blood may have to be administered.
f4ctry
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6/6/2010 3:15pm
Administer it as a precatuion rather than as a reaction....you think if Canard had had an IV before the first moto as a top up then he would have been that bad at the end...well maybe but you cant tell....
DougEFresh
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6/6/2010 3:22pm
hartebreak wrote:
I think allowing and encouraging IV's is going to be very detramental to not only the riders health but the sport. When a body starts shutting...
I think allowing and encouraging IV's is going to be very detramental to not only the riders health but the sport. When a body starts shutting down or hurting/ cramping up it is an automatic trigger that tells the body to slow down because it is hurt or needs rest. Look at all the pro football players who's bodies are completely shot because they got a cortizone shot in their knee because the pain was too much and they couldnt miss the big game. Sure it makes the pain go away and then the player goes out and tears up his knee and is a gimp for the rest of his life. Getting dehydrated is a natural result of heavy exercise and the body starts shutting things down in an effort to force the person to stop doing whatever it is they are doing. Once we allow doctors to start messing with these guys for the sake of better performance I really see career/life ending injuries sky-rocketing. I think if a rider exerts himself to the point where a doc must put in an IV then that rider should be medically DQed.
I agree with you that the body starts shutting down to protect itself, but I disagree with your comparison to Football. We are talking about fluid IV's not cortizone shots. I feel the rule should be changed not removed completly, basically under extreme conditions only, not every race.
Outsider
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6/6/2010 3:34pm
TripleFive wrote:
Isn't it illegal to have non qualified individuals give IVs?

Could be completely wrong though.
WhKnuckle wrote:
I think you can actually give the IV barely under the skin - I don't think you have to actually get it in a vein. When...
I think you can actually give the IV barely under the skin - I don't think you have to actually get it in a vein. When they do it in a hospital, they put it in a vein because there's an assumption that other meds or possibly whole blood may have to be administered.
It needs to hit a vein, otherwise I believe it would end up as bubble under the skin.

I'm not sure how to feel about this, seems to me, if all the riders are on gurneys with an IV drip between motos, something went horribly wrong.

Some of the guys admitted they had to back it down a notch as the heat got to them, isn't that really the sensible thing to do? Yeah, you wanna win, but there are always limitations to what you can and cannot do, in a race.

jmar
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6/6/2010 3:44pm
It's a rule because not everyone can afford to have a professional purchase and administer an IV.

And yes those who can afford it, or don't have a problem with breaking the rules are re-hydrating between motos.
hartebreak
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6/6/2010 3:46pm Edited Date/Time 6/6/2010 3:48pm
hartebreak wrote:
I think allowing and encouraging IV's is going to be very detramental to not only the riders health but the sport. When a body starts shutting...
I think allowing and encouraging IV's is going to be very detramental to not only the riders health but the sport. When a body starts shutting down or hurting/ cramping up it is an automatic trigger that tells the body to slow down because it is hurt or needs rest. Look at all the pro football players who's bodies are completely shot because they got a cortizone shot in their knee because the pain was too much and they couldnt miss the big game. Sure it makes the pain go away and then the player goes out and tears up his knee and is a gimp for the rest of his life. Getting dehydrated is a natural result of heavy exercise and the body starts shutting things down in an effort to force the person to stop doing whatever it is they are doing. Once we allow doctors to start messing with these guys for the sake of better performance I really see career/life ending injuries sky-rocketing. I think if a rider exerts himself to the point where a doc must put in an IV then that rider should be medically DQed.
DougEFresh wrote:
I agree with you that the body starts shutting down to protect itself, but I disagree with your comparison to Football. We are talking about fluid...
I agree with you that the body starts shutting down to protect itself, but I disagree with your comparison to Football. We are talking about fluid IV's not cortizone shots. I feel the rule should be changed not removed completly, basically under extreme conditions only, not every race.
I know the IV is different than Cortizone, but the point I was making is where do we draw the line for perfomance? Who's to say a rider doesnt ask "hey doc, how about a little something extra in the IV for this 2nd moto". I just dont think its good for these kids to hit their physical limits, push thru them and then get assistance to push even further, I just dont see this as a positive thing. I think we should be satisfied as fans when they train hard, put in 100% effort. Thats all we can expect from these guys, if it happens to result that in extreme conditions that they turn in a few bad moto's here and there then so be it. I will stand with my opinion that IV's should be used for medical needs to keep a rider safe, not make it where he can trick the body to perform harder later in the day. If you must get an IV then you are DQed from riding any more that day.
6/6/2010 3:57pm
To me adding fluids through an IV seems too unnatural for motocross. The heat is something that affects everyone, part of being a smart racer is knowing how to pace yourself and prepare properly to endure the elements. Relying on unnatural methods to help the body cope leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth for some reason and I believe it reflects poorly on the sport.

If riders are comfortable sticking themselves between motos for hydration who knows what they could be shooting up during the week. It's a slippery slope in my opinion.

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