Gypsy Tales/Glen Helen/ Bud Feldkamp Interview

LungButter
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7/18/2024 1:51pm
Just my opinion, but this little snippet from a post by Glen Helen themselves seems to give some insight into your wondering...."Some of the reasoning may...

Just my opinion, but this little snippet from a post by Glen Helen themselves seems to give some insight into your wondering....

"Some of the reasoning may be that GH has the ability to "hold out" for things that we think are critical for our long-term success, as well as the long-term success of MX in general."

Yeah, but what are those "things"?  

If they are for the long term success of MX in general they should tell us what they are.  MXSports taking too many tickets doesn't have fuck all to do with the long term success of MX in general so GH is either lying with the statement you posted or lying that the ticket numbers are the point of contention.

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7/18/2024 1:56pm
Just my opinion, but this little snippet from a post by Glen Helen themselves seems to give some insight into your wondering...."Some of the reasoning may...

Just my opinion, but this little snippet from a post by Glen Helen themselves seems to give some insight into your wondering....

"Some of the reasoning may be that GH has the ability to "hold out" for things that we think are critical for our long-term success, as well as the long-term success of MX in general."

LungButter wrote:
Yeah, but what are those "things"?  If they are for the long term success of MX in general they should tell us what they are.  MXSports...

Yeah, but what are those "things"?  

If they are for the long term success of MX in general they should tell us what they are.  MXSports taking too many tickets doesn't have fuck all to do with the long term success of MX in general so GH is either lying with the statement you posted or lying that the ticket numbers are the point of contention.

Exactly my point and thoughts as well. 

DC is far from perfect, and maybe he's just a good salesman, but after hearing both sides, I'm with DC on this one I think. 

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Johnny Ringo
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7/18/2024 2:00pm
KennyT wrote:
I love your analogy but to say GH is 10/10 is insane. It’s located in what is arguably the biggest shithole city in  the country. It’s...

I love your analogy but to say GH is 10/10 is insane. It’s located in what is arguably the biggest shithole city in  the country. It’s a hot, sandy, shadeless, ugly track located next to a crime ridden ghetto.  It has one nice up/downhill, other than that it is another Pala in a much worse neighborhood 

You never met a hot chick from a rough neighborhood? Some of the hottest babes are surrounded by chain link fence and “beware of dog” signs...

You never met a hot chick from a rough neighborhood? Some of the hottest babes are surrounded by chain link fence and “beware of dog” signs with their mom’s new boyfriend working on his Datsun pickup in the driveway. Kid Rock playing on the stereo. 

seth505 wrote:

That's not a 10.

Agree to disagree 

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GlenHelen
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7/18/2024 2:08pm
GlenHelen wrote:
If you are referring to the podium incident with Eli, of course it happened.  What I am disputing is the reasoning behind it.  There was no...

If you are referring to the podium incident with Eli, of course it happened.  What I am disputing is the reasoning behind it.  There was no VIP promise of handshakes.  The idea for the fence line ride was simply an attempt for some "good will" with fans and a great addition to the trip to the finish line.  The fact that people thought there was some "monetary" reasoning from the idea is comical.  Also, if you listen to the podcast and the story regarding the finish line, you can learn why it was another example of a broken promise by DC/MXS.  And yes, I was there and witnessed the handshake with DC on the day leading up to the race when he agreed to the podium path to include fan interaction in exchange for a track change he wanted.  Not sure what else to tell you on that. 

Of course, we would love to see an MX National at GH again, I'm just not sure we are anxious to do it with the current parties.  For now we will continue to focus on the local races and hosting our own events until something else arises. 👍

mxnick wrote:
MX Sports has two production meetings just ahead of the events. They have been happening for more then ten years and happen at every race, every...

MX Sports has two production meetings just ahead of the events. They have been happening for more then ten years and happen at every race, every weekend. The meetings are held to plan out all interaction between MX Sports and the local promoter.  The meetings cover things like local dignitaries, the national anthem signer, any special recognition for family staff members or local racers, or whatever the local promoter might want for the event. It is where the series promoter and local promoter meet to make things happen.  There are a TON of moving pieces at these events, and these meetings are in place to help manage all staff members. 

The 2018 event was no different - and multiple Glen Helen staffer attended not one, but both event production meetings (from memory, there were about 5 GH staffers, including Mr. Info and John Perry). The first one was held on Friday before the event at 5pm and then the "final" one, where all the last last minute details are worked out, was held on Saturday at 7am. I think (but could be wrong?) Lori only attended the Saturday meeting. 

During these meetings, not a single Glen Helen representative ever mentioned anything whatsoever about Bud's wish to direct riders at track exit to pass the VIP area. Doing so would have been possible, but it would have added some distance and time to the track exit, and with TV scripts calling for 1 minute to podium, the shows were already planned pretty carefully.  

However, it wasn't until 2.30pm and during the second 250 moto where Bud was somewhat frantically pacing around the finish line and moving cones and banners that it became known to any of the onsite staff (both MX Sports and GH staff) about this. There are tight times for TV interviews and podium stuff, and adding an extra 45 seconds to one minute to this would complicate the broadcast. Plus, and more importantly, it was also felt that this also posed a safety risk, coming at 2.30pm and long after riders have been on the track multiple times for practice and parade laps. Changing course direction (even if just an exit) is simply a bad idea halfway through the moto on high speed track like Glen Helen. Plus there was a MONSTER double after the finish line that weekend, and some riders would still hit it after the checkers, and some would just roll it, which can create risk of riders being landed on. Buds requested change would mean riders turn to the right after the jump and not the left. It was just a bad idea at that time of the day, and from a safety perspective.  

It was suggested to Bud that we "fix it for next year" and it was said that "it was a bad idea" by Jeff Canfield, who was in charge of course safety at that time. It was a very heated conversation between Bud, Davey and Jeff Canfield. But Bud insisted that he wanted it to happen, and so course workers did there best to change the course direction, and Davey reluctantly agreed in order to appease Bud. So, about 50% of the riders followed the new route, and the other group took the old route and just got off the track. The situation came to head with Bud trying to take Eli off the podium after going 1-1 at the end of the day, and telling him to go ride back past the fan zone, and taking him off the podium. Incidentally, by that point, roughly 4 minutes after the checkers, the fan zone was empty as the people were leaving the track. 

Simply put, the Glen Helen his staff was not informed properly of Buds wishes.  

When running a large event like this, communication and a calm demeanor is the key to success, and on that day. Bud displayed neither of those. 

 

So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should have done all the communication with MXS crew instead of their own boss?  I was standing feet away from Bud when he shook DC's hand and Davey said "We have a deal.  We will make it happen."  I guess we now know that "We will make that happen and a handshake" only means we will make it happen if your staff continues to bug me and then coordinates it with all of my MXS crew.  If DC had no intention of doing it, he should have made the deal.  Or better yet, if he later learned of some potential issues preventing him from fulfilling his side of the deal, he should have come back to Bud and tried to figure something out.  Instead, when Bud confronted him about it (again, I was a direct witness to this), he simply shined him on and said it could be done because of TV.  

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The Shop

DonM
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7/18/2024 2:08pm
ACBraap wrote:
Honestly this is the only thing where it seems like GH  has a reasonable argument, and the one place where it seems like DC fails to...

Honestly this is the only thing where it seems like GH  has a reasonable argument, and the one place where it seems like DC fails to explain convincingly. 

LungButter wrote:
If that was such a shitty deal that MXSports pulled....don't you think at least one of the other tracks that was part of NPG woulda had...

If that was such a shitty deal that MXSports pulled....don't you think at least one of the other tracks that was part of NPG woulda had a problem with it too?

GH is the only track that took their ball and went home.

For me, that is always the thing I come back to, all these other tracks continue to happily (from what we know) work with MXSports yet poor little Glen Helen can't seem to make it work.  Why are they a victim and nobody else is?

I know I'll never get an answer to that question obviously.

Just my opinion, but this little snippet from a post by Glen Helen themselves seems to give some insight into your wondering...."Some of the reasoning may...

Just my opinion, but this little snippet from a post by Glen Helen themselves seems to give some insight into your wondering....

"Some of the reasoning may be that GH has the ability to "hold out" for things that we think are critical for our long-term success, as well as the long-term success of MX in general."

Apparently what they feel is important  for their long term success and the long term success of MX in general does not align with MXS and the other 11 tracks and their vision for long term success...

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lappedrider
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7/18/2024 2:12pm
GlenHelen wrote:
If you are referring to the podium incident with Eli, of course it happened.  What I am disputing is the reasoning behind it.  There was no...

If you are referring to the podium incident with Eli, of course it happened.  What I am disputing is the reasoning behind it.  There was no VIP promise of handshakes.  The idea for the fence line ride was simply an attempt for some "good will" with fans and a great addition to the trip to the finish line.  The fact that people thought there was some "monetary" reasoning from the idea is comical.  Also, if you listen to the podcast and the story regarding the finish line, you can learn why it was another example of a broken promise by DC/MXS.  And yes, I was there and witnessed the handshake with DC on the day leading up to the race when he agreed to the podium path to include fan interaction in exchange for a track change he wanted.  Not sure what else to tell you on that. 

Of course, we would love to see an MX National at GH again, I'm just not sure we are anxious to do it with the current parties.  For now we will continue to focus on the local races and hosting our own events until something else arises. 👍

mxnick wrote:
MX Sports has two production meetings just ahead of the events. They have been happening for more then ten years and happen at every race, every...

MX Sports has two production meetings just ahead of the events. They have been happening for more then ten years and happen at every race, every weekend. The meetings are held to plan out all interaction between MX Sports and the local promoter.  The meetings cover things like local dignitaries, the national anthem signer, any special recognition for family staff members or local racers, or whatever the local promoter might want for the event. It is where the series promoter and local promoter meet to make things happen.  There are a TON of moving pieces at these events, and these meetings are in place to help manage all staff members. 

The 2018 event was no different - and multiple Glen Helen staffer attended not one, but both event production meetings (from memory, there were about 5 GH staffers, including Mr. Info and John Perry). The first one was held on Friday before the event at 5pm and then the "final" one, where all the last last minute details are worked out, was held on Saturday at 7am. I think (but could be wrong?) Lori only attended the Saturday meeting. 

During these meetings, not a single Glen Helen representative ever mentioned anything whatsoever about Bud's wish to direct riders at track exit to pass the VIP area. Doing so would have been possible, but it would have added some distance and time to the track exit, and with TV scripts calling for 1 minute to podium, the shows were already planned pretty carefully.  

However, it wasn't until 2.30pm and during the second 250 moto where Bud was somewhat frantically pacing around the finish line and moving cones and banners that it became known to any of the onsite staff (both MX Sports and GH staff) about this. There are tight times for TV interviews and podium stuff, and adding an extra 45 seconds to one minute to this would complicate the broadcast. Plus, and more importantly, it was also felt that this also posed a safety risk, coming at 2.30pm and long after riders have been on the track multiple times for practice and parade laps. Changing course direction (even if just an exit) is simply a bad idea halfway through the moto on high speed track like Glen Helen. Plus there was a MONSTER double after the finish line that weekend, and some riders would still hit it after the checkers, and some would just roll it, which can create risk of riders being landed on. Buds requested change would mean riders turn to the right after the jump and not the left. It was just a bad idea at that time of the day, and from a safety perspective.  

It was suggested to Bud that we "fix it for next year" and it was said that "it was a bad idea" by Jeff Canfield, who was in charge of course safety at that time. It was a very heated conversation between Bud, Davey and Jeff Canfield. But Bud insisted that he wanted it to happen, and so course workers did there best to change the course direction, and Davey reluctantly agreed in order to appease Bud. So, about 50% of the riders followed the new route, and the other group took the old route and just got off the track. The situation came to head with Bud trying to take Eli off the podium after going 1-1 at the end of the day, and telling him to go ride back past the fan zone, and taking him off the podium. Incidentally, by that point, roughly 4 minutes after the checkers, the fan zone was empty as the people were leaving the track. 

Simply put, the Glen Helen his staff was not informed properly of Buds wishes.  

When running a large event like this, communication and a calm demeanor is the key to success, and on that day. Bud displayed neither of those. 

 

GlenHelen wrote:
So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should...

So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should have done all the communication with MXS crew instead of their own boss?  I was standing feet away from Bud when he shook DC's hand and Davey said "We have a deal.  We will make it happen."  I guess we now know that "We will make that happen and a handshake" only means we will make it happen if your staff continues to bug me and then coordinates it with all of my MXS crew.  If DC had no intention of doing it, he should have made the deal.  Or better yet, if he later learned of some potential issues preventing him from fulfilling his side of the deal, he should have come back to Bud and tried to figure something out.  Instead, when Bud confronted him about it (again, I was a direct witness to this), he simply shined him on and said it could be done because of TV.  

Whoever this poster is made it clear that MX Sports did infact try to make it happen.  It was just that some of the riders continued to use the original route.   

Seems like an honest effort was made.  And that TV prevented them from doing it after the fact.  

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early
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7/18/2024 2:13pm
GlenHelen wrote:
So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should...

So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should have done all the communication with MXS crew instead of their own boss?  I was standing feet away from Bud when he shook DC's hand and Davey said "We have a deal.  We will make it happen."  I guess we now know that "We will make that happen and a handshake" only means we will make it happen if your staff continues to bug me and then coordinates it with all of my MXS crew.  If DC had no intention of doing it, he should have made the deal.  Or better yet, if he later learned of some potential issues preventing him from fulfilling his side of the deal, he should have come back to Bud and tried to figure something out.  Instead, when Bud confronted him about it (again, I was a direct witness to this), he simply shined him on and said it could be done because of TV.  

When did that handshake happen? Months before, the day before, Saturday morning? 

GlenHelen
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7/18/2024 2:15pm
scott_nz wrote:

can you ask why do you guys keep complaining you don't have a national when you have cancelled it twice in the past,?

GlenHelen wrote:
First things first, we never "canceled" an MX National.  Just another example of MXS spinning the narrative their way.  Both events didn't happen due to both...

First things first, we never "canceled" an MX National.  Just another example of MXS spinning the narrative their way.  Both events didn't happen due to both parties not being able to come to terms on a contract.  As additional context, GH was expressing concerns regarding the contract for months prior to the schedule release that MXS sent out PRIOR to a renewed contract.  Was GH supposed to just accpet whatever contract MXS sent over since they had already gone ahead and released a schedule?

As for complaining, the only reason GH participated in the podcast was in defense of the production that DC decided to produce with Gypsy.  

Appreciate your coming on here to tell your side, but who are you? Bud, Lori, Bud Jr?You said that MX Sports "canceled" a national but it...

Appreciate your coming on here to tell your side, but who are you? Bud, Lori, Bud Jr?

You said that MX Sports "canceled" a national but it really didn't - my recollection is that an ad with the nationals schedule (with GH listed) ran in the printed SX program before MX Sports had formally announced the schedule and before GH and MX Sports had actually agreed terms. While I would have resisted publishing the schedule without a signed contract in place with each track, this is clearly distinguishable from MX Sports canceling a national.

While there's some back and forth here about whether GH has more bargaining power because it doesn't need a national as much as some of the other tracks on the schedule, it smells fishy when GH is the only other track that can't agree terms with MX Sports. If they were truly that egregious then by now some of the other tracks would presumably have left? MX Sports is a business and I find it hard to believe that they're trying to push more onerous terms on GH than other tracks.  As an ex-girlfriend once told me, "It's not me, so it must be you".

Finally, I'm all for a bit of banter, but it's not a good look bad-mouthing a potential business partner on a public forum. But sadly this is where we are today.

Cheers

Simon

Bud Jr. 

If I said that MXS "canceled" a national in a post, then that was my mistake.  In the past, everyone has made it seem like GH "canceled" the national when in fact there wasn't even a signed deal to have a national.  A better term would be that MXS "removed the national from the schedule" after it became apparent both parties weren't going to be able to reach a deal.

Yes, you are correct. GH doesn't NEED a national, but we also want to give the fans a national because we know they want it.  Of course, we are racers and fans too, so we would love to see a national.  But I think we have gotten to the point that we are just done giving up more and more.  Perhaps other tracks aren't in the same position as we are and can't afford to lose the event, which is why they accept the terms that are given from MXS as "take it or leave it."   

As for the badmouthing?  What potential business partner?  Are you talking about MXS?  

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GlenHelen
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7/18/2024 2:17pm
GlenHelen wrote:
So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should...

So to clarify, it's the responsibility of GH staff to make sure that DC follows through on his promises regarding his own company?  GH staff should have done all the communication with MXS crew instead of their own boss?  I was standing feet away from Bud when he shook DC's hand and Davey said "We have a deal.  We will make it happen."  I guess we now know that "We will make that happen and a handshake" only means we will make it happen if your staff continues to bug me and then coordinates it with all of my MXS crew.  If DC had no intention of doing it, he should have made the deal.  Or better yet, if he later learned of some potential issues preventing him from fulfilling his side of the deal, he should have come back to Bud and tried to figure something out.  Instead, when Bud confronted him about it (again, I was a direct witness to this), he simply shined him on and said it could be done because of TV.  

early wrote:

When did that handshake happen? Months before, the day before, Saturday morning? 

It was like the Wed or Thursday before the race.  

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LungButter
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7/18/2024 2:19pm
GlenHelen wrote:
Bud Jr. If I said that MXS "canceled" a national in a post, then that was my mistake.  In the past, everyone has made it seem like...

Bud Jr. 

If I said that MXS "canceled" a national in a post, then that was my mistake.  In the past, everyone has made it seem like GH "canceled" the national when in fact there wasn't even a signed deal to have a national.  A better term would be that MXS "removed the national from the schedule" after it became apparent both parties weren't going to be able to reach a deal.

Yes, you are correct. GH doesn't NEED a national, but we also want to give the fans a national because we know they want it.  Of course, we are racers and fans too, so we would love to see a national.  But I think we have gotten to the point that we are just done giving up more and more.  Perhaps other tracks aren't in the same position as we are and can't afford to lose the event, which is why they accept the terms that are given from MXS as "take it or leave it."   

As for the badmouthing?  What potential business partner?  Are you talking about MXS?  

"Giving up more and more"

The only thing ya'll have said you gave up was a few tickets...even that story seems a little suspect as you tried to act like MXSports was selling these tickets to the public at Industry Services, which isn't happening.

So what else have you given up?

 

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aees
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7/18/2024 2:51pm
LungButter wrote:
Has anybody been to any National and seen MXSports staff standing out front selling their own tickets?Sorry @GlenHelen, but that seems quite the stretch.What about the...

Has anybody been to any National and seen MXSports staff standing out front selling their own tickets?

Sorry @GlenHelen, but that seems quite the stretch.

What about the time Bud/you guys sold tickets to fans promising them a high five or whatever from the riders instead of allowing the riders to proceed directly to the Podium as they need to?

What about the claims that you want to sell your own VIP areas aside from the standard ones MXSports has?

What about the claims that you want to sell your own sponsorship areas aside from the standard ones MXSports has?

Why can 11 other tracks keep working with MXSports year after year after year after year yet ya'll can't seem to work it out?

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

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LungButter
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7/18/2024 2:55pm
aees wrote:
Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a...

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

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7/18/2024 3:02pm

GlenHelen says they're not interested in working a deal with the current owner (DC). My question: what would change that situation? IE - when does the license for the series come up again? or is GH simply going to wait till DC retires before having talks again? 

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7/18/2024 3:11pm
brocster wrote:
How many tickets are “un reasonable” to Bud?  Let’s say Davey wanted 500 tickets and face value is $100 that’s $50k he asking Bud to give...

How many tickets are “un reasonable” to Bud?  Let’s say Davey wanted 500 tickets and face value is $100 that’s $50k he asking Bud to give up.  Bud says if Davey gives in on that he’d throw $100K in the purse. That’s not good math as he’d be giving away an additional $50k.  Can’t believe this whole debacle is over free tickets/passes. Weird! from both sides to me, especially Bud.  I don’t want to give away 50k but I’ll give away 100k. Again, weird!

Insaner708 wrote:
My families land borders a former national track. The Coombs gave my family, and as far as I'm aware all of the neighbors who wanted to...

My families land borders a former national track. The Coombs gave my family, and as far as I'm aware all of the neighbors who wanted to attend free tickets, and not just a couple, they took care of us. We also got free pit passes until the AMA took control of them, from what I understand. This is where a significant portion of the "Free Tickets" likely still goes. I believe it was mainly to keep the locals happy. These are mainly tiny towns. Traffic and the roadways are a nightmare for the weekend, as well as many other inconveniences (noise, drunks, fireworks, etc.). Things like these are often overlooked. You keep the neighbors happy and they aren't at the city council meeting trying to get rid of the race. 

GlenHelen wrote:
Yes, 100% agreed.  GH has to maintain great relationships with local businesses, neighbors, etc...which is why GH would always take them into account with tickets.  But...

Yes, 100% agreed.  GH has to maintain great relationships with local businesses, neighbors, etc...which is why GH would always take them into account with tickets.  But these were not comps coming from the MXS allotment, these are tickets that GH would provide since we are the local track.  MXS doesn't care about the neighbors when they are in town for only 72hrs.  Again, the thousands of tickets going to MXS were NOT being used for locals/neighbors.

Fair point and I can only speak from my personal experience and at one particular national. But I have had several members of the Coombs family over the years personally hand my father and later myself tickets and/or wristbands. I'm not talking 2 or 3 here I'm talking in the 10-20 range. Grandparents through grandkids, all were accounted for and maybe a friend or two. The neighbors who wanted to attend also had the same setup, some of course were not moto fans and didn't attend. 

No hate coms though just sharing my own experience, the nationals gone any maybe things would be different today who knows.

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aees
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7/18/2024 3:12pm
aees wrote:
Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a...

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

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lappedrider
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7/18/2024 3:18pm
aees wrote:
Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a...

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

No other National Tracknis going out of business if they stopped running a National.  Thats just silly.  

Thats not what AMart said.  You should go back and re-listen.  He said they take full advantage of the National and make it even more profitable.  This also this also makes no sense with your first argument.  

If holding a National is not profitable, no one would do it.  

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2
aees
Posts
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7/18/2024 3:18pm
scott_nz wrote:

can you ask why do you guys keep complaining you don't have a national when you have cancelled it twice in the past,?

GlenHelen wrote:
First things first, we never "canceled" an MX National.  Just another example of MXS spinning the narrative their way.  Both events didn't happen due to both...

First things first, we never "canceled" an MX National.  Just another example of MXS spinning the narrative their way.  Both events didn't happen due to both parties not being able to come to terms on a contract.  As additional context, GH was expressing concerns regarding the contract for months prior to the schedule release that MXS sent out PRIOR to a renewed contract.  Was GH supposed to just accpet whatever contract MXS sent over since they had already gone ahead and released a schedule?

As for complaining, the only reason GH participated in the podcast was in defense of the production that DC decided to produce with Gypsy.  

Appreciate your coming on here to tell your side, but who are you? Bud, Lori, Bud Jr?You said that MX Sports "canceled" a national but it...

Appreciate your coming on here to tell your side, but who are you? Bud, Lori, Bud Jr?

You said that MX Sports "canceled" a national but it really didn't - my recollection is that an ad with the nationals schedule (with GH listed) ran in the printed SX program before MX Sports had formally announced the schedule and before GH and MX Sports had actually agreed terms. While I would have resisted publishing the schedule without a signed contract in place with each track, this is clearly distinguishable from MX Sports canceling a national.

While there's some back and forth here about whether GH has more bargaining power because it doesn't need a national as much as some of the other tracks on the schedule, it smells fishy when GH is the only other track that can't agree terms with MX Sports. If they were truly that egregious then by now some of the other tracks would presumably have left? MX Sports is a business and I find it hard to believe that they're trying to push more onerous terms on GH than other tracks.  As an ex-girlfriend once told me, "It's not me, so it must be you".

Finally, I'm all for a bit of banter, but it's not a good look bad-mouthing a potential business partner on a public forum. But sadly this is where we are today.

Cheers

Simon

I wouldn't run a national event that was depending on amature racing to make some money, as to what A-mart said. We draw the line at every event needs to stand on its own, and generate a considerable contribution. You take a huge risk if the weather is shit, could be half the revenue. So it needs to have a good upside on paper at least which from what I have heard and seen, it doesn't have. 

Unfortunately most tracks look at the bottom line and if that is contributing a healthy amount of money compared to all year earninngs, they'll just take it. Even if the effort is not motivated and margins are low. 

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5
7/18/2024 3:23pm
aees wrote:
Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a...

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other track owners. Not a hint of unfair asks or splits. 

I am NOT saying they are all over the moon happy, but at the end of the day they see the value and choose to keep working with MXS. 

Glen Helen has the right to refuse, clearly they have their reasons, but like @LungButter keeps asking, why are they the only ones??

2
2
yak651
Posts
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Appleton, WI, USA
Fantasy
7/18/2024 3:29pm
DonM wrote:
Is that different for the other tracks or are they all the same? I also noticed that you value those tickets at $80 while MXS was...

Is that different for the other tracks or are they all the same? I also noticed that you value those tickets at $80 while MXS was selling them in advance for $50 and at will call for $60. So did you want to sell them to Crew Members, Rider Guests, and Industry Personnel at a higher rate than MXS?

The bottom line is that you are unwilling to agree to the same terms and conditions that the other 11 do agree to. That doesn't mean that anybody is right or wrong it just means that GH doesn't want to agree to those terms and that is 100% on GH. As a fan I would love to see GH back on the schedule but as I see it with the unwillingness to agree to the same terms as the other tracks we are not going to see that happen.

GlenHelen wrote:
MXS can do whatever they want with the tickets that are allotted to them.  The market will decide how much they want to sell them for...

MXS can do whatever they want with the tickets that are allotted to them.  The market will decide how much they want to sell them for, not us.  Our position is that ~1500-2000 tickets should be plenty for a series promoter to take care of riders/mechanics/sponsors etc.  If they are fighting so hard for more, then you have to start asking yourself "Why".  GH is in the bullseye of the MX community, so almost everyone is "in the industry" (you should know that well, right?) and capable of purchasing passes from MX sports.  By the way, MXS is selling an ALL-DAY pit access ticket at a gate and to an event where GH was only allowed to have 1,000 of those "special" tickets.  At the end of the day, we just aren't willing to give up 20% of our admission gate so that MXS can participate financially at both the series level (TV, sponsors, etc...) AND participate at the track level.  

Ok now you just sound purely arrogant and greedy. Sorry. 

So how else is GH supposed to make money off the event if they aren’t collecting entries, aren’t allowed to sell merch, not sure on food/beverage. Why is it greedy for them to want to limit tickets they themselves can’t sell if that is the only way they make money off the event. GH guy can you share the fee MXS gets from the facilities to have the event at their track?

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6
aees
Posts
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7/18/2024 3:30pm
LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

No other National Tracknis going out of business if they stopped running a National.  Thats just silly.  Thats not what AMart said.  You should go back...

No other National Tracknis going out of business if they stopped running a National.  Thats just silly.  

Thats not what AMart said.  You should go back and re-listen.  He said they take full advantage of the National and make it even more profitable.  This also this also makes no sense with your first argument.  

If holding a National is not profitable, no one would do it.  

Yea to make it work, and corrected to make it even more profitable. 

Tracks don't go out of business, but they can't invest without it. Some really need it. Do you need that new tractor? Need nationals. Fix up houses? Need nationals. Had some low attanded seasons? Need nationals. 

Take it from someone that has ran nationals and been running sport clubs for the last 10 years. Ain't no one getting rich on it unless you are very lucky with attendance and good at selling sponsorship. 

Don't forget the risk. Shitty weather and you will barely break even depending on how much sponsorship and vip package you have been able to pre-sale (which you are not allowed to?). 

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AZ35
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Peoria, AZ, USA
Fantasy
7/18/2024 3:32pm
LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other...

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other track owners. Not a hint of unfair asks or splits. 

I am NOT saying they are all over the moon happy, but at the end of the day they see the value and choose to keep working with MXS. 

Glen Helen has the right to refuse, clearly they have their reasons, but like @LungButter keeps asking, why are they the only ones??

I don't first hand know anything about the specific details of Glen Helen and Bud, but from what little I have read he is very wealthy from other business interests.

Like "fuck you" money wealthy.

Maybe that is the difference, Bud has enough money and wants things his way or no way. He doesn't need a National. Doesn't "need" the money unless it is on his terms or at least terms he finds agreeable. Stubborn? Probably. But when you don't "need" someone else your mindset can change.

The other promoter's maybe are not as fortunate, and need their National as their main $$ event each year so they are more open to agreeing to the terms required for a National?

Right or wrong, that is a business decision he is obviously willing to make. Just like DC not bending for Bud, business decision.

Us fans are the ones having a hard time with that, because as fans we want a Glen Helen National. 

5
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LungButter
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Yellow Pine, ID, USA
7/18/2024 3:33pm
aees wrote:
I wouldn't run a national event that was depending on amature racing to make some money, as to what A-mart said. We draw the line at...

I wouldn't run a national event that was depending on amature racing to make some money, as to what A-mart said. We draw the line at every event needs to stand on its own, and generate a considerable contribution. You take a huge risk if the weather is shit, could be half the revenue. So it needs to have a good upside on paper at least which from what I have heard and seen, it doesn't have. 

Unfortunately most tracks look at the bottom line and if that is contributing a healthy amount of money compared to all year earninngs, they'll just take it. Even if the effort is not motivated and margins are low. 

That's not what AMart said.

6
brocster
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Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
7/18/2024 3:33pm
LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other...

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other track owners. Not a hint of unfair asks or splits. 

I am NOT saying they are all over the moon happy, but at the end of the day they see the value and choose to keep working with MXS. 

Glen Helen has the right to refuse, clearly they have their reasons, but like @LungButter keeps asking, why are they the only ones??

Because “he who has the gold makes the rules” 

One party has the “gold” series and the other believes to have the “gold” track therefore they each believe they can make the rules and here we are…

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LungButter
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7/18/2024 3:36pm
AZ35 wrote:
I don't first hand know anything about the specific details of Glen Helen and Bud, but from what little I have read he is very wealthy...

I don't first hand know anything about the specific details of Glen Helen and Bud, but from what little I have read he is very wealthy from other business interests.

Like "fuck you" money wealthy.

Maybe that is the difference, Bud has enough money and wants things his way or no way. He doesn't need a National. Doesn't "need" the money unless it is on his terms or at least terms he finds agreeable. Stubborn? Probably. But when you don't "need" someone else your mindset can change.

The other promoter's maybe are not as fortunate, and need their National as their main $$ event each year so they are more open to agreeing to the terms required for a National?

Right or wrong, that is a business decision he is obviously willing to make. Just like DC not bending for Bud, business decision.

Us fans are the ones having a hard time with that, because as fans we want a Glen Helen National. 

You are probably right, but GH should just own that instead of putting out statements like this one that has already been posted here:

"Some of the reasoning may be that GH has the ability to "hold out" for things that we think are critical for our long-term success, as well as the long-term success of MX in general."

That doesn't line up with Bud just not needing the money so he won't bend, that makes it seem like they are martyrs for the good of the sport.....which they clearly aren't.

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lappedrider
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Tooele, UT, USA
7/18/2024 3:38pm

The attempt to make DC and MX Sports to look like the bad guy has failed.   If you’ve been on this board for any amount of time, there is plenty of hate for DC here.  This story just isn’t adding up.  

 

13
4
yak651
Posts
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Location
Appleton, WI, USA
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7/18/2024 3:39pm
LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other...

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other track owners. Not a hint of unfair asks or splits. 

I am NOT saying they are all over the moon happy, but at the end of the day they see the value and choose to keep working with MXS. 

Glen Helen has the right to refuse, clearly they have their reasons, but like @LungButter keeps asking, why are they the only ones??

Who knows if the others are afraid to speak up or not? Mentioned already Millville and Red Bud have a great draw so they are happy. Is Southwick a non-profi? The VFW puts the race on so they are happy to get a donation, are they looking at it as a business?. Pala is just happy to get people at their track in 100 degree heat so they aren’t going to say anything, + MXS probably gives them a discount on fees as they need a race in CA. Washougal is happy to have racers even show up as they have to drive all the way across the country before and after the event so they aren’t going to say anything. Hangtown is put on by a club so they really aren’t in it as a business. Thunder Valley have no clue how that is ran or what they are like rest of the year so can’t venture a guess on them. Iron Man has a MXS connection, the reason they got the race and they have the GNCC so they aren’t going to complain. Budds Creek is still trying to stay out of the red after their tax snafu over the MXDN. Unadilla would have the same reaction from fans if they got booted due to history so they probably get a little better deal…too much typing, let the down voting begin

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5
7/18/2024 3:40pm
aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other...

So you think Glen Helen is the only track that doesn't need a national? It just doesn't add up. We haven't heard ANYTHING from the other track owners. Not a hint of unfair asks or splits. 

I am NOT saying they are all over the moon happy, but at the end of the day they see the value and choose to keep working with MXS. 

Glen Helen has the right to refuse, clearly they have their reasons, but like @LungButter keeps asking, why are they the only ones??

AZ35 wrote:
I don't first hand know anything about the specific details of Glen Helen and Bud, but from what little I have read he is very wealthy...

I don't first hand know anything about the specific details of Glen Helen and Bud, but from what little I have read he is very wealthy from other business interests.

Like "fuck you" money wealthy.

Maybe that is the difference, Bud has enough money and wants things his way or no way. He doesn't need a National. Doesn't "need" the money unless it is on his terms or at least terms he finds agreeable. Stubborn? Probably. But when you don't "need" someone else your mindset can change.

The other promoter's maybe are not as fortunate, and need their National as their main $$ event each year so they are more open to agreeing to the terms required for a National?

Right or wrong, that is a business decision he is obviously willing to make. Just like DC not bending for Bud, business decision.

Us fans are the ones having a hard time with that, because as fans we want a Glen Helen National. 

If that's the case, then own it and it's all good. If he's made it to that level, then yeah I can respect it a little more, but you have to own it and not say you're doing it for the good of the sport. If true, he's earned the right to say "I don't need your national or your money" so just say that.

2
1
DonM
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Location
USA
Fantasy
7/18/2024 3:41pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2024 3:42pm
aees wrote:
Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a...

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

That’s not what AMart said he said when you put all the pieces together the national, amateur racing and camping it is very profitable he never said they needed amateur racing to make a profit. Nothing against either side but there are 11 other tracks that are good with their contracts with MXS if they had any issues or weren’t making money you would think that after 15 years they would be gone. 

5
2
lappedrider
Posts
1555
Joined
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Location
Tooele, UT, USA
7/18/2024 4:15pm
aees wrote:
Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a...

Be able to have its own VIP areas and sponsorship areas would probably be a hard requirement for me to have, being part of running a track that has nationals on it. 

You can't bring in sponsors for 364 days a year to an arena or event area as big as GH, and shut them out for the one major event that you co-arrange. No sponsors or partners would be happy with that.

If MX-sport rented the facility it would be a different thing (much like Feld do for SX), but they are not. 

 

LungButter wrote:
Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play...

Ok then, back to my age old question...how do the other tracks make it work then?

I've said it a million times, Glen Helen wants to play the victim in this deal but ALL these other tracks make it work.  If MXSports/DC were such scum bags and hard to work with you'd think another track woulda backed out by now.

aees wrote:
Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. In this event I actually feel like...

Because most tracks need some additional revenue and margin, and would take it/anything as long as they make some money. 

In this event I actually feel like GH has set the the bar to normal level for accepting and doing a national, but the others has set it pretty low.

You can take a job for 15 an hour, but if it's worth 20 you should get 20. Most will settle for 15 even if it is not fair. 

You heard A-mart, they need amature racing to make it work. Doesn't that sound like a good deal? 

GH doesn't need that zero to low margin events where you need to do additional events to make it go around. Unfortunately most tracks do. 

You are speculating.  Are you really trying to say that the only tracks in the country, that are profitable enough to improve facilities, are the current 11 tracks with Nationals?   

1
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KurtJ99
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USA
7/18/2024 4:20pm
yak651 wrote:
Who knows if the others are afraid to speak up or not? Mentioned already Millville and Red Bud have a great draw so they are happy...

Who knows if the others are afraid to speak up or not? Mentioned already Millville and Red Bud have a great draw so they are happy. Is Southwick a non-profi? The VFW puts the race on so they are happy to get a donation, are they looking at it as a business?. Pala is just happy to get people at their track in 100 degree heat so they aren’t going to say anything, + MXS probably gives them a discount on fees as they need a race in CA. Washougal is happy to have racers even show up as they have to drive all the way across the country before and after the event so they aren’t going to say anything. Hangtown is put on by a club so they really aren’t in it as a business. Thunder Valley have no clue how that is ran or what they are like rest of the year so can’t venture a guess on them. Iron Man has a MXS connection, the reason they got the race and they have the GNCC so they aren’t going to complain. Budds Creek is still trying to stay out of the red after their tax snafu over the MXDN. Unadilla would have the same reaction from fans if they got booted due to history so they probably get a little better deal…too much typing, let the down voting begin

Glen Helen (and Ironman, Millville), there may already be enough business where running a National doesn't really contribute to the overall draw, but like Amart said to make it profitable means more than just Pro day. My local track Hangtown track wouldn't be in the shape it's in or have the draw if it wasn't connected to the National, perhaps Pala is the same way. As you said, lot's of different tracks holding Nationals for different reasons. 

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