Holeshot Devices

Soul Indigo
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6/25/2024 5:37pm
LungButter wrote:
I'm thinking the sport as a whole, Amateur races at Chicken Licks all the way to Supercross. I say get rid of them.  They make it...

I'm thinking the sport as a whole, Amateur races at Chicken Licks all the way to Supercross.

I say get rid of them.  They make it even easier to get a good start but everyone pretty much has one so who cares.

They also add some more danger, everyone is closer going into the first turn and you always have the chance of it not releasing and then you're along for the ride at some point.

soggy wrote:
You said it exactly. ‘Everyone uses them so who cares’ can anyone actually show data that starts are more dangerous then before? Or is it all...

You said it exactly. ‘Everyone uses them so who cares’

can anyone actually show data that starts are more dangerous then before? Or is it all recency bias? Without devices riders are more likely to wheelie, which could cause an accident just as easily. 

At the local race level I think it matters even less, a good starter without it will hole shot a poor starter with one everytime. 

Looping out off the start and bouncing off each other in the first turn are not the same thing. I don’t need science to tell me that. 

MKMX
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6/25/2024 7:45pm

Holeshot devices, scoop tyres and start grates are only advantageous if you’re the only bloke out there who has all 3. When everyone is on the same set-up it still comes down to reaction time, start technique and who can hold it wedged the longest.

Are we talking about the sport as a whole or “the sport” being 40 of the most skilled riders in the world? Because the skill gap at the very top is vastly smaller than the skill gap at a local show.

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inflammable
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6/25/2024 8:12pm

Thanks to those who mentioned MotoGP using a similar approach. 

However, wouldn't any problems with it getting stuck be much less severe in MotoGP than in MX/SX?

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Justthefacts
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6/25/2024 8:59pm

A couple notes here:  First, the speed at end of straight away absolutely has to be faster than without a device.  Why, anyone who has drag raced, knows the takeoff makes a difference down the track.  The faster you leave the line, the faster the speed you reach by turn one.  

Second, it may be better for some riders and worse for others.  Meaning, some riders who couldn't start for crap without one, may get good starts now, while others who always got good starts, may or may not still get good starts.  If you originally had only 10 guys who could holeshot, but now you have 40, chances are you may have a harder time getting 1st to the first turn like you originally could.  

Lastly, the device if not released before turn one, can be more dangerous, because the turning changes and you may push the front end.  

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The Shop

chasetwo79
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6/25/2024 11:51pm
LungButter wrote:
I don't have data, but I do have common sense. Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make...

I don't have data, but I do have common sense.

Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make it easier to get out of the gate they are going to be closer together at the first turn?

Just think about it for 5 seconds and get back to me.

 

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate...

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate first turn pileups, go to a staggered start. But who wants to see that??

No riders actually want this. 

Not hillbilly
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6/26/2024 5:16am
LungButter wrote:
I don't have data, but I do have common sense. Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make...

I don't have data, but I do have common sense.

Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make it easier to get out of the gate they are going to be closer together at the first turn?

Just think about it for 5 seconds and get back to me.

 

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate...

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate first turn pileups, go to a staggered start. But who wants to see that??

chasetwo79 wrote:

No riders actually want this. 

NOBODY wants this, but if we’re honestly trying to solve for first turn pileups, it’s an obvious solution.

SEEMEFIRST
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6/26/2024 5:45am
Thanks to those who mentioned MotoGP using a similar approach.  However, wouldn't any problems with it getting stuck be much less severe in MotoGP than in...

Thanks to those who mentioned MotoGP using a similar approach. 

However, wouldn't any problems with it getting stuck be much less severe in MotoGP than in MX/SX?

Is this a serious question?

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Moto98
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6/26/2024 7:48am
Thanks to those who mentioned MotoGP using a similar approach.  However, wouldn't any problems with it getting stuck be much less severe in MotoGP than in...

Thanks to those who mentioned MotoGP using a similar approach. 

However, wouldn't any problems with it getting stuck be much less severe in MotoGP than in MX/SX?

Although that may be true. The right starting device with the right install should never get stuck.

chasetwo79
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Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate...

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate first turn pileups, go to a staggered start. But who wants to see that??

chasetwo79 wrote:

No riders actually want this. 

NOBODY wants this, but if we’re honestly trying to solve for first turn pileups, it’s an obvious solution.

But you can’t solve for first turn pileups in our sport. It’s going to happen sometimes. We can certainly reduce damage through smart track design, top equipment, and things of that nature, but the rush to the first turn is one of things that tie every skill level of rider together. 

inflammable
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6/26/2024 10:07am
SEEMEFIRST wrote:

Is this a serious question?

Of course. I don't watch a lot of MotoGP but wasn't aware they had uphill triples or fast downhill jumps or 11+ inches of suspension front and rear. 

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6/26/2024 10:10am
Moto98 wrote:

Although that may be true. The right starting device with the right install should never get stuck.

But any added device such as this adds more element of risk. Never is rarely true. 

1
6/26/2024 1:04pm

They should change the name… how can it be a holeshot device when everyone has one but only one person gets the holeshot!Wink

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Zycki11
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6/26/2024 1:07pm

My .02 we are at a point where tech on bikes is outweighing the real factors of the sport. Bikes are so good they need to eliminate certain things. No more hs devices, metal grates, and rpm gauges on the front fender. 

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LungButter
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6/26/2024 1:27pm
Zycki11 wrote:
My .02 we are at a point where tech on bikes is outweighing the real factors of the sport. Bikes are so good they need to...

My .02 we are at a point where tech on bikes is outweighing the real factors of the sport. Bikes are so good they need to eliminate certain things. No more hs devices, metal grates, and rpm gauges on the front fender. 

Same.  Safety aside, it's pretty lame how much shit you can have to help you keep from looping out off the start.

Won't be long and we're gonna start seeing the grates show up at Chicken Licks raceway too, probably already out there I just haven't seen one in person yet.

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6/26/2024 1:56pm
soggy wrote:
Everyone uses them it’s fine. I don’t believe we’d see drastically different results if we got rid of them.    I do think the electronics packages...

Everyone uses them it’s fine. I don’t believe we’d see drastically different results if we got rid of them. 
 

I do think the electronics packages factory teams have the use of is a competitive advantage, but I would doubt we see any limitations on this like only allowing the use of one map in the race for example. 

LungButter wrote:
I'm thinking the sport as a whole, Amateur races at Chicken Licks all the way to Supercross. I say get rid of them.  They make it...

I'm thinking the sport as a whole, Amateur races at Chicken Licks all the way to Supercross.

I say get rid of them.  They make it even easier to get a good start but everyone pretty much has one so who cares.

They also add some more danger, everyone is closer going into the first turn and you always have the chance of it not releasing and then you're along for the ride at some point.

I'll bet you aren't a 5' 110 lb. girl, are you?  Well, my Daughter is. If you don't want to use one than don't!

LungButter
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6/26/2024 2:13pm
MX Dad #27 wrote:

I'll bet you aren't a 5' 110 lb. girl, are you?  Well, my Daughter is. If you don't want to use one than don't!

Oh I hadn't thought of that, we definitely need them around to cater to .01% of racers.

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aees
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6/26/2024 2:18pm
soggy wrote:
Do you have any data that riders are closer going into the first turn?  You’re the one that’s arguing to get rid of them. You have...

Do you have any data that riders are closer going into the first turn?  You’re the one that’s arguing to get rid of them. You have to prove they are more dangerous. Which is impossible to do because there is no control group to many varaiables have changed along with the addition of start hooks.

as far as the analogy I was just pointing out how easy it is to argue the other side and that it doesn’t prove anything without data. 

LungButter wrote:
I don't have data, but I do have common sense. Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make...

I don't have data, but I do have common sense.

Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make it easier to get out of the gate they are going to be closer together at the first turn?

Just think about it for 5 seconds and get back to me.

 

It's not that difficult. Go to youtube, watch some 90s starts and compare with today.

They are the same as today.

One of the pros I know (top 3-5 in nationals here) did run without holeshot device until he went up to 450. He was pretty much never outside top 3 in a start with a 125 or 250, most of the time came out as number 1 or 2. He was the only one on 40 gates not running a holeshot device.

On 450 he said it was impossible to start without it against others. 

6/26/2024 2:18pm
MX Dad #27 wrote:

I'll bet you aren't a 5' 110 lb. girl, are you?  Well, my Daughter is. If you don't want to use one than don't!

LungButter wrote:

Oh I hadn't thought of that, we definitely need them around to cater to .01% of racers.

I think that's fair, as you are using .01% of your brain (What's really scary is you are probably using it all).

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LungButter
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6/26/2024 2:25pm
MX Dad #27 wrote:

I think that's fair, as you are using .01% of your brain (What's really scary is you are probably using it all).

So I'm not using my brain because I wanted to have a discussion about whether or not hole shot devices make the sport better or worse and my opinion just happens to be they make it worse?

Not using your brain would seem to be more like thinking the entire sport needs them just to make it easier for your daughter. 

 

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ILoveMoto
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6/26/2024 2:32pm

I want what Mike had! 

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LungButter
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6/26/2024 2:35pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2024 2:35pm
ILoveMoto wrote:
I want what Mike had! 

I want what Mike had! 

I sometimes think he had "5....4....3...2....1...GO!!!"

But, probably not cause I don't really remember him slamming the gate a bunch either.

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ILoveMoto
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ILoveMoto wrote:
I want what Mike had! 

I want what Mike had! 

LungButter wrote:

I sometimes think he had "5....4....3...2....1...GO!!!"

But, probably not cause I don't really remember him slamming the gate a bunch either.

I suspect it was Tony's tutoring 🙂

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Moto98
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6/26/2024 3:20pm
Moto98 wrote:

Although that may be true. The right starting device with the right install should never get stuck.

But any added device such as this adds more element of risk. Never is rarely true. 

That's true; "never" is a rare word in motocross. However, some devices pose a lot more risk than others, and that can be controlled. For example, a mod motor could be a lot faster than it is, but the risks of it blowing up after 15 minutes are a lot higher.

mikelawlor
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6/26/2024 3:22pm
ILoveMoto wrote:
I want what Mike had! 

I want what Mike had! 

LungButter wrote:

I sometimes think he had "5....4....3...2....1...GO!!!"

But, probably not cause I don't really remember him slamming the gate a bunch either.

ILoveMoto wrote:
I suspect it was Tony's tutoring 🙂

I suspect it was Tony's tutoring 🙂

I’ve noticed the last couple years they have been getting lower and lower but so much so on Vince Freeze’s bike the damn fender was almost touching the front wheel. There was about 3” of travel left in the forks. I run mine pretty low and I’m worried about the fork guard ripping out even with the supports on it but I can’t imagine how much pressure is on those things. 

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Not hillbilly
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6/26/2024 3:29pm
chasetwo79 wrote:

No riders actually want this. 

NOBODY wants this, but if we’re honestly trying to solve for first turn pileups, it’s an obvious solution.

chasetwo79 wrote:
But you can’t solve for first turn pileups in our sport. It’s going to happen sometimes. We can certainly reduce damage through smart track design, top...

But you can’t solve for first turn pileups in our sport. It’s going to happen sometimes. We can certainly reduce damage through smart track design, top equipment, and things of that nature, but the rush to the first turn is one of things that tie every skill level of rider together. 

Wait. What was the point of this thread again? I thought the OP was concerned that holeshot devices make it so more people arrive at the first turn at the same time and at a higher speed than they would without them. Is that not his safety concern or am I missing the point?

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inflammable
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6/26/2024 4:03pm
Moto98 wrote:
That's true; "never" is a rare word in motocross. However, some devices pose a lot more risk than others, and that can be controlled. For example...

That's true; "never" is a rare word in motocross. However, some devices pose a lot more risk than others, and that can be controlled. For example, a mod motor could be a lot faster than it is, but the risks of it blowing up after 15 minutes are a lot higher.

Yes, but a motor doesn't become useless after the first turn. A motor is essential for the entire race, just like tires and functioning suspension. 

Holeshot devices are really only necessary because everyone else on the gate seems to have one, especially at higher levels of racing. 

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inflammable
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6/26/2024 4:13pm Edited Date/Time 6/26/2024 4:14pm
LungButter wrote:
I don't have data, but I do have common sense. Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make...

I don't have data, but I do have common sense.

Do you have enough common sense to understand that if everyone has a device to make it easier to get out of the gate they are going to be closer together at the first turn?

Just think about it for 5 seconds and get back to me.

 

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate...

Common sense? Common sense says it’s dumb af to have race start that funnels 40 riders into a single turn. If you really want to eliminate first turn pileups, go to a staggered start. But who wants to see that??

Moto 1 of each national class: 20 riders, top 10 to the main - full 30 minutes plus 2 laps moto. Award points. 

Moto 2 of each national class: 20 riders, top 10 to the main - full 30 minutes plus 2 laps moto. Award points. 

Both on Peacock. 

2 hour break and then both mains of 20 riders per class live on NBC and Peacock. Open with highlights of the prior motos. Mains are also 30 minutes plus 2 laps. Casual fan knows who won the main races, dedicated fan knows who got the most points that day. Less crowded first turn. Fewer lappers. Smaller gate (no doghouse though - 20 continuous spots). 

I know, going off on a tangent here, but staggered starts for MX/SX are such a lame idea I had to. 

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chasetwo79
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6/26/2024 8:08pm

NOBODY wants this, but if we’re honestly trying to solve for first turn pileups, it’s an obvious solution.

chasetwo79 wrote:
But you can’t solve for first turn pileups in our sport. It’s going to happen sometimes. We can certainly reduce damage through smart track design, top...

But you can’t solve for first turn pileups in our sport. It’s going to happen sometimes. We can certainly reduce damage through smart track design, top equipment, and things of that nature, but the rush to the first turn is one of things that tie every skill level of rider together. 

Wait. What was the point of this thread again? I thought the OP was concerned that holeshot devices make it so more people arrive at the...

Wait. What was the point of this thread again? I thought the OP was concerned that holeshot devices make it so more people arrive at the first turn at the same time and at a higher speed than they would without them. Is that not his safety concern or am I missing the point?

The OP question was “do they make the sport better or worse?”. 
 

 

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JMX82
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6/27/2024 12:42am

I think holeshot devices should be banned. It's just added source for mechanical failures and cost. It doesn't make really difference because everyone is running it ads nothing to the racing itself      

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