Posts
6
Joined
1/17/2024
Location
Marseilles, IL
US
Edited Date/Time
6/19/2024 4:35pm
Since the last one went so well.
https://open.substack.com/pub/sinbadtherider/p/davey-coombs-says-the-qu…
Poll
I don't have a substack account so I can't vote.....
But, yes, what he said seems true.
Also, those Trump v Biden questions won't go over well here...
You can't have a production based motorsport series, which relies on the OEM's participation, and then introduce a new type of bike that is instantly better.
If it was bleeding obvious that the best bike is a Stark. and they were allowed to compete against 450's, next year you would have everyone trying to get onto a Stark. Within 2-3 years no-one will want a 450 ride because they can't win.
If Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki and KTM/Husky/GasGas withdraw because they can't compete you won't have a series, full stop.
so, do you want a race series with 10 brands, or back the one brand that built a bike that isnt in the rules,
Electric bikes will have a place no doubt, but will it be in pro racing? This is the devil we do not know, and should tread lightly before hasty decisions are made. I still can't help but think the powers that be still regret the 2 stroke/4stroke formula decision.
The Shop
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Free shipping: VITALMX
Just paying attention here, but this article is also written by the OP of this post, all of which is purely opinion - no different than the post I am making here. This has the same feel as Stark kicking and screaming because they are not getting their way with the promoters and organizations doing what they want "I want it now" deal with bending rules for them. The same promoters that Stark didn't have the foresight to collaborate with before assuming rules would bend for them to compete professionally right off of the production line. All of it, short sighted.
I am all for an e-bike class, and I would be a fool to say there is no chance in time it could take over the main stage, but to assume you can just walk in and demand all of the promoters bow at your feet (not to mention, you are the new guy in the game), is even more foolish. These are dirt bikes, we are not saving the world here, there is no political pressure, it is nothing more than something different, and a new choice, not a mandate. When the majority is on board, including manufacturers, there could be a pivot, but we are obviously not even close to that yet.
Have a cup of patience, and relax..
If you’ve listened to the whole podcast DC also touches on what happened when 4-strokes were introduced and the impact that had. I think this also plays into why they’re treading very carefully about the introduction of E-Bikes. The loyalty to the brands that have pioneered the sport is admirable and in time E-Bikes will have their place in pro racing. I would imagine trying to phrase homologation ruling that is equally fair to both I.C.E bikes and E-Bikes would be a nightmare!
Noise will eventually kill this sport. They closed my track down, these municipalities have already made their mind up, I could have spent 100K...It doesn't matter.
tik tok
He actually said it well.....the class is for gas bikes, not just any bike that shows up and electric will have a place. You can't show up at the Indy 500 with a Tesla powered Indy Car and fit in the rules.
That said, I do think the vet classes at Loretta's and other AMA events should just change to open and guys can run whatever they want.
They cant last the distance of a 35min moto in hot weather yet.
At dinner one night some years ago (pre-stark) we got onto the subject of four strokes and he fully admitted the AMA got the displacement rules wrong and that they will not make that mistake again, so they are taking a soft launch approach with electric into sanctioned racing. He is absolutely not against electric, they just don't want to piss off the manufacturers that actually keep the lights on.
This isn't some evil conspiracy against Stark, the powers that be know that bike will absolutely destroy anything gas powered with a little more development time.
When Honda, Kawasaki, KTM, Suzuki & Yamaha show up with their electrics? You’ll see the rules change to allow them in to AMA Pro Racing.
Solid points made in that article.
Stark has delivered like 2000 bikes (I actually have no idea, I’m just guessing), total…they are a brand new company…the odds of them being around in 5 years aren’t in their favor (looking at start up statistics). Changing rules to suit what is still a novelty at this point would be silly.
The ama is right to take a “wait and see” approach to e bikes. If they are better they will naturally replace ICE bikes…if they aren’t, then they’ll go away….the market will decide.
I’m not too worried about the 250/450 class in Pro Supercross at this moment, in time it will become obvious that Pro Supercross is a vintage series and there will be a grassroots desire for the truly best bikes at the top. The advantages are undeniable; it’s not like a Formula 1 car vs a NASCAR where it’s faster but requires more $. But the FIM has had the E-Explorer cup for 2 years, where is the AMA’s version? Why can I still not race my bikes at the amateur level? Why do we insist on ignoring this whole generation of riders who are looking elsewhere to ride? There is a second whole community of dirt bike riders growing up out there, and we’re ignoring them because the OEMs are scared. As Kendrick says, “let’s speak on percentage.”
SurRonster is a YouTube channel by a random dude who I believe had never ridden a dirt bike before he got his SurRon. He has never done anything of note in the wider world besides ride his electric dirt bike. You should already be familiar with The Deegans YouTube channel, whom I heard a lot of folks at High Point crediting with growing the sport. SurRonster has 1 million YouTube subscribers (plus other platforms), the Deegans have 1.3m. That’s where Deegan’s wins here end. SurRonster picked up 11 million views in the last month, the Deegans only 2.5m, despite an impressive and exciting pro MX season so far. The Deegans have the backing of Star Racing / Yamaha USA, Brian Deegan’s pile of money and business expertise, a whole family (including Hallie racing cars) making content, and a whole production team. SurRonster was doing it on his own for a while but I assume he now pays contractors to edit. SurRonster is popular because the kids want SurRons. Plus, the Deegans subscriber growth on SocialBlade looks a little artificial to me.
vs SurRonster’s
Better bump up to the premium organic growth package, Brian. SurRonster recently got 2m views on a bike review “This New E-Bike is CHEAPER and FASTER than Surron”. All of the 2023 gas bike shootouts I can find only totalled to about half a million, and it took 5+ videos, 20+ bikes, and almost 2 years to get there vs. SurRonster’s single bike, 6 months. SocialBlade estimates SurRonster makes a better living than any supercross privateer, raking in half a mil a year. It estimates the Deegans bring in $100k (remember this is just YouTube views). Do you think these views come from folks who wouldn’t buy a dirt bike if it were cheaper than their VR headset, and there were an organization advertising to their parents the virtues and discipline that riding dirt bikes gives?
There’s also Sam Pilgrim, an icon in the MTB world, who rode his SurRon to over a million views, demonstrating how dangerously close the MTB and the MX world are becoming when the only difference is whether you twist a throttle or spin your feet to activate the power.
Hell, while I was scrolling YouTube this morning I got an ad for a $350 kids bike. If I get ads for gas bikes, they are for $12,000 Yamahas, with typos and clearly aimed at established riders. Cool to drool over, but they don’t grow the sport.
Sadly, SurRonster has had to make his own community events because the established bike community is offering nothing enticing for ebike owners to come ride.
What’s happening here is the polar opposite of four strokes. Four strokes made the sport more expensive, louder, and harder to participate in. I live in a metro area with 100,000 people. The only independent mechanic (I don’t trust and won’t pay for dealership service) within one hour that I’ve found willing to take my dirt bikes is a car place, and he said not to bring him anything involving internal work. If I didn’t have a lifetime of experience fixing bikes, I wouldn’t be able to participate in this sport. I got my neighbor into it, he has three bikes now. A blown up 2-stroke 85 (it lasted the longest!), a 2020 KX250 whose valves I can hear from inside my house (he’s had it a year), and a 140 which exploded the drain plug out and leaks oil past the stator wires. I can see why we regret encouraging four strokes at the highest level. But the only problem ebikes bring is that the sport may change. The current OEMs may temporarily pull back their MX money because they’re being beaten. But if the sport becomes as relevant as it was in the 2-stroke days again, who needs ‘em? They'll be back, or replaced.
We could be doing urban races. Urban races are already happening, just at night because the participants think they’re illegally inventing a new sport (they’ve never heard of motocross, and when I tell show them it they don't feel welcome). We could be racing SurRons on BMX tracks. We could be doing sideshow races at football, baseball, basketball games, or NYC city parks on a busy weekend. We could be sending Stacycs to elementary school gym classes or after school programs. This is a once in a generation opportunity, and the AMA is intent on letting it fizzle because the AMA is a gas bike manufacturer’s union. Patience is what put Alta out of business and why KTM didn’t capitalize on the electric Freeride despite having a market for 100-1000x their peak import numbers, giving it up instead to SurRon modders who don't know they're welcome at motocross tracks. Let’s take some risk folks: at least let the kids race their SurRons when they find the moto track of their own accord. Once we let them ride, next we can encourage them to ride.
---
>They cant last the distance of a 35min moto in hot weather yet.
Can you? When was the last time you saw a 35 minute amateur motocross moto?
>so, do you want a race series with 10 brands, or back the one brand that built a bike that isnt in the rules,
I don't care about the rules, I care about the sport and the kids. Honda, Beta, KTM, and Yamaha (via Electro and Co, remember when Americans were pioneering faster bikes in this sport? The American Motorcyclist Association wasn't kicking them in the nuts then) can already field an electric bike. It's not my fault that someone developed a better bike while the bean counters were busy shipping KTM65 cylinder production to China.
>the market will decide.
The market is deciding, we are letting the market get away from us. But market incumbents defending their castle against better products is not a free market. Bring back the Open class, and you'll have a market. Let amateurs race what they want, and you'll have a market.
I have a feeling the timeline is going to follow the generation of youngsters that are racing E50's now. They will move on to E65's and E85's and eventually they will want full size E bikes. 6-7 years from now? Then after a couple of years on full size E bikes some of those kids are going to want to turn pro on with the only motor they've ever known. Given that timeline I think they have about 8-10 years to figure out how these things are going to fit in pro racing. By that point they should have a much better understanding of how they are going to control/limit the power output for different classes.
You must be new to the sport??
Your comparing the automotive industry and its global investment in “electrics” by major OEMs FOR DECADES to motorcycles and an industry that’s still in “niche” mode when it comes to this new power platform. Note: my company made parts for GM Electric Vehicles in the 1990s.
I’d humbly suggest some of us calm down and actually listen to what was said in your own post/sub stack and take note of the simple fact that the 1st “electric MX bike” company to survive for a few years as a stand alone company and deliver product…& let’s be honest…Stark is just getting started. Hell…this whole segment is just getting started. Also, from Alta to HD…there’s been a bit of “Fail” in this segment and that hasn’t helped (as mentioned in your stack vid).
When the major OEM’s show their cards…that’s when there will be an E-Moto class at the AMA Pro Level and it’ll grow from there.
You’ve seen the Honda. Yamaha has been sitting on one. KTM dipped their toe in the water years ago and has already produced some specialized products while they sit on their big bikes. Kawasaki is working aggressively on their electric products. Suzuki says they’re doing the same.
Don’t worry…It’s going to happen soon enough.
I agree but....you probably won't get much more involvement or capital investment from anyone unless the rules are modified to accept them. We need some visionaries at the top of our sport who does not resist change.
IMHO we are already late to the game.
Pit Row
Federations where there's big money and OEM involved (AMA) are much more cautious than federations where OEM don't have much say as in France or Australia...
That I understand, for the pro championships.
What I don't get is why it seems difficult for some federations opening up to electrics for amateur racing when a dozen of countries have already done so? Allowing electric for amateurs could only grow the sport, why not let people ride their bikes in an open class or electric class?
Yes I can see not opening up pro displacement-based classes until we really know how they shake out. But amateur open class seems like they should be actual open classes.
Davey care to explain why Tim cotter was taking a fans phone at high point.
I wanna know why a fan would allow it.
As Pro electric as I am, I think that starting out with letting them race at the am level instead of the pro level , makes more sense. Like others keep saying, let them in the Vet and Open classes. In New England they allow Starks in the Vet and Open classes in NESC, and I think the other orgs too.
Even if Pro racing stays gas at the highest levels, Am racing could benefit from electrics on so many levels . Tracks having less issues with sound. Even if everybody charged with a generator . You could restrict the sound level of generators to 65 to 70 DB and drop the sound levels from the track in almost half. Easier for new riders to ride, easier for single moms to maintain . And who doesn't want more hot single mini moms at the track??
Say what?
The market hasn't decided, yet...they haven't been around long enough...for all we know at this point e-bikes, surons, etc. are a fad...five years from now we will know if they have real staying power or if they are a fun "toy" (which is what most of the people buying surons consider them) that people get bored with (my neighbors bought two of them...and when they first bought them they were riding them all day every day it seemed like...I can't remember the last time they left their garage, their teenagers got board with them)...
I'm an electric bike owner (husky ee-5)...I love it (more than anything the lack of maintenance), but the power delivery is almost like cheating compared to the no-bottom-end-50sx. Range sucks...my son can't get 30 minutes out of the battery on anything above level 3.
I love that electric bikes are so easy to own, and so easy to ride...but I actually see that as one of the things that will contribute to them being a fad where people get board of them, rather than creating life long invested riders. Dirt bikes are more than just their power source, they are hard to ride and hard to maintain, the amount of effort it takes to own, and ride, them creates a ton of personal investment, which then translates into a lifestyle and almost creates an identity which equals life long participants. Sure, the there will be less life long participants, and the churn rate is there (people who buy a bike and can't figure out how to ride it or how to maintain it and bail). But I see an even higher churn rate on e-bikes-like my neighbors-especially for low price point, low performance bikes like the suron (which most people are buying to ride around their neighborhood).
Anyway...this is way to long...point being, its too early to tell if ebikes are a fad, or if they will have true staying power...the market will decide. I personally think electric is the blueRay of power sources...great, in some ways better than DVD's, but quickly replaced by something even better (digital streaming)...So I think there will be another power source that will quickly replace electric as the next phase of dirt bikes.
The promoters can’t force the manufacturers to make the bikes they want so his answer is just a fact.
Honestly all this discussion about electric at the pro level misses the point. If you care about the sport and want a stronger local racing scene, or would like to ride mx without driving a couple hours, electric is what will allow that to happen. If Stark (or any brand) wants to see results, try to get an electric only mx trak near a big city. That is what will drive buying by amateurs, and buying and racing by amateurs is what will drive the other brands and ultimately the AMA.
Local to me there is a FB group ready to tar and feather some Surron riders for daring to set foot in the local bike park.
What's the story on this?
Cooksey made a video about it.
Also, this is in the Dumbgeon. I assume people are coming back because of their notifications
Anybody know how we landed here in the Dumbgeon? I sent an email last week but haven't heard anything.
Post a reply to: Davey Coombs said the quiet part out loud