Statement from Rich Taylor (LACR Lawsuit)

NSP139
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6/5/2024 12:29pm
AMetts wrote:
Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to...

Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to get seriously hurt on. If a precedent is set about the dangers of how a track either motocross or offroad is "routed" near dangers seems like opening a can of worms. 

Ya I'm worried about the presadence this sets! Insurance companies see this and rates go higher or just cancel! No wonder entry fees have been going up around here!

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AMetts
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6/5/2024 12:34pm
AMetts wrote:
Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to...

Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to get seriously hurt on. If a precedent is set about the dangers of how a track either motocross or offroad is "routed" near dangers seems like opening a can of worms. 

Tyler D wrote:
blind trees and stumps are a part of the sport and are reasonably foreseeable. if there is a mineshaft directly in the middle of a ribboned...

blind trees and stumps are a part of the sport and are reasonably foreseeable. if there is a mineshaft directly in the middle of a ribboned course, that would be an unforeseeable risk. 

More like if the mineshaft is outside of the ribboned area similar to this case the track was perfectly safe until something went wrong, just seems like it just sets a bad precedent like others have said. 

 

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Tyler D
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6/5/2024 12:48pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2024 12:51pm
AMetts wrote:
Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to...

Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to get seriously hurt on. If a precedent is set about the dangers of how a track either motocross or offroad is "routed" near dangers seems like opening a can of worms. 

Tyler D wrote:
blind trees and stumps are a part of the sport and are reasonably foreseeable. if there is a mineshaft directly in the middle of a ribboned...

blind trees and stumps are a part of the sport and are reasonably foreseeable. if there is a mineshaft directly in the middle of a ribboned course, that would be an unforeseeable risk. 

AMetts wrote:
More like if the mineshaft is outside of the ribboned area similar to this case the track was perfectly safe until something went wrong, just seems...

More like if the mineshaft is outside of the ribboned area similar to this case the track was perfectly safe until something went wrong, just seems like it just sets a bad precedent like others have said. 

 

i dont mean to sound pedantic and argumentative, but i feel there's a distinction there, because the XC race is inherently held on natural terrain, where the MX course is man-made, or at least the features are. i think a different standard of care applies. your example does raise an interesting question of fact where juries may reasonably disagree. that is, how far off the course (and at what trajectory) should the course designers be obligated to notify of and/or mitigate potentially critical hazards (in an XC race - here, this is still attached TO the course IMO). 

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6/5/2024 12:57pm

Something I was wondering; What is Taylors and Rick Ryan's relationship with the track owner? 

Sounds like they had a point to prove with someone they did not like.

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The Shop

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6/5/2024 12:58pm

Socal guys correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding there was an existing cliff/slope/wall/whatever and the man made berm was built on top of the existing wall. The backside grade that you can see on the gopro footage is the backside of the man made berm, not the cliff/slope/wall/whatever that dropped down to the flat below. Not trying to steer anyone's opinion one way or another just pointing out the backside of the berm is not the drop in question.

I think the problem with the layout is the high speed downhill section leading directly into the corner. If they slowed the entry to the corner I don't see an accident like this happening.

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whyZ
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6/5/2024 1:08pm
50dippin wrote:
If Rich saw the berm and was aware of the danger prior to the race would he have still let his kid race? My guess is...

If Rich saw the berm and was aware of the danger prior to the race would he have still let his kid race? My guess is yes.

Was the berm dangerous and should have been changed? I think so, but depending on what track worker was talked to I wouldn't expect any action.  It would be like telling a the guy at McDonalds taking orders that the meals should be healthier and suing if the menu isn't changed when I have a heart attack.   
 

I think a better look for rich would have been to use his platform to spread the message about making tracks as safe as possible.  Maybe if they used some of that money so good could come of it.  

Another question I don't think has been brought up yet.  What did Rich say to his boy about the berm before lining up at the gate?   

6/5/2024 1:15pm
So just to be clear... The Taylor's filed the suit, not the insurance company. And these statements are attempting to justify this because of a dangerous...

So just to be clear... The Taylor's filed the suit, not the insurance company. And these statements are attempting to justify this because of a dangerous condition on the track that was not fixed, but everybody raced on it anyways?

I don't know anything about this and have never been to LACR. My interpretation, from reading the statement, that you didn't know it was a cliff on the backside unless you were at the top of the berm. Is that correct? If so you have no idea of the danger? Or am I reading this wrong?

TM

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yak651
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6/5/2024 1:20pm
Something I was wondering; What is Taylors and Rick Ryan's relationship with the track owner?  Sounds like they had a point to prove with someone they...

Something I was wondering; What is Taylors and Rick Ryan's relationship with the track owner? 

Sounds like they had a point to prove with someone they did not like.

Is RR sponsored by EKS Brand?

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LungButter
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6/5/2024 1:22pm
yak651 wrote:

Is RR sponsored by EKS Brand?

I'm sure he was after he made that statement for them.

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50dippin
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6/5/2024 1:26pm
So just to be clear... The Taylor's filed the suit, not the insurance company. And these statements are attempting to justify this because of a dangerous...

So just to be clear... The Taylor's filed the suit, not the insurance company. And these statements are attempting to justify this because of a dangerous condition on the track that was not fixed, but everybody raced on it anyways?

ToolMaker wrote:
I don't know anything about this and have never been to LACR. My interpretation, from reading the statement, that you didn't know it was a cliff...

I don't know anything about this and have never been to LACR. My interpretation, from reading the statement, that you didn't know it was a cliff on the backside unless you were at the top of the berm. Is that correct? If so you have no idea of the danger? Or am I reading this wrong?

TM

There is no way you can miss it, it is clearly visible from the parking lot, entry to the track and other parts of the track when riding.  I rode there with that layout and never really thought much of it.  The biggest danger at that track is the wind hands down.

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race
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6/5/2024 1:26pm

The backside of that berm is just fill dirt. You could ride or even tumble down it and not expect much of a problem. Hitting the berm  straight on at speed is a different matter. The initial angle of the berm is now going to launch you up and out. From the shot of where he ended up he must have hit it fairly fast because he is all the way out on the flats almost to the Vet track. Whatever angle / degree the backside was is now irrelevant because he flew well beyond it. Had he simply collided with another rider during the turn and they both tumbled down the slope of fill dirt I doubt much would have happened.

As has been said several times earlier, he was out of control. Going way too fast because he missed the rear brake and the line shows no attempt to turn. Was he looping out after he launched .... was he endoing? Who knows but it was a consequence of being out of control. You could do the same thing on almost any obstacle on any track and expect a bad result. You can't expect a track owner to somehow calculate every possible scenario of an out of control rider. I think all of the mentioned experienced riders involved in this all knew that ... but for their own reasons have chosen to mis-characterize it.

BTW - this is why all riders need to have insurance coverage ... and make sure the policy does not contain any exclusions for whatever it is you are doing.

 

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Marty1028
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6/5/2024 1:30pm
AMetts wrote:
Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to...

Has anything like this ever happened at an off-road race? Most races are just ribboned and arrowed off lots of possible stumps and trees obviously to get seriously hurt on. If a precedent is set about the dangers of how a track either motocross or offroad is "routed" near dangers seems like opening a can of worms. 

this reminds me of cody barnes at ironman gncc two years ago, where he fell down an ACTUAL 30 foot cliff...ML posted this on the main page....but he didnt sue toms marine, or the landowners/family.......

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Rotaholic
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6/5/2024 1:31pm

There are no unsafe tracks, just poor decisions and unexpected consequences. Look at Jett on the weekend, I could ride that section 1000 times without issue, but he decided to try and jump it, the track wasn't unsafe.

In a race environment even the first turn becomes unsafe. 

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Roger@Arroyo
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6/5/2024 1:39pm

Rich Taylor, from respected rider and industry person to scum. Sorry his kid had a nasty crash, don't wish that on anyone. But, kid made his own mistake, the track certainly didn't mess up and hit that berm straight on at high speed. 

 

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Richy
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6/5/2024 1:40pm
Marty1028 wrote:
this reminds me of cody barnes at ironman gncc two years ago, where he fell down an ACTUAL 30 foot cliff...ML posted this on the main...

this reminds me of cody barnes at ironman gncc two years ago, where he fell down an ACTUAL 30 foot cliff...ML posted this on the main page....but he didnt sue toms marine, or the landowners/family.......

Sounds like Cody is a good dude.

Good on Cody for not lashing out at the sport we all love with a cash grab 👍

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aees
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6/5/2024 1:42pm
aees wrote:
If you own a track, and you charge people for riding there, it will come with obligations. You can't just rake in the cash when its...

If you own a track, and you charge people for riding there, it will come with obligations. You can't just rake in the cash when its convenient and not take responsibility when shit goes south. That's also why you have insurance.

Clearly this was something that could be fixed. 

So all in all, don't run a track if you can't make it reasonably safe. This part was not reasonably safe since it was also pointed out as unsafe by people with experience. Nothing else as far I know, was pointed out.

 

joshd wrote:

I’ve always said the sports has some of the most stupid, ignorant fans, this post solidifies that. 

Fan is an understatement, I run a track and part of the board of directors in motor based communities. So I know just slightly more than most here how that works.... 😄

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6/5/2024 1:42pm
So just to be clear... The Taylor's filed the suit, not the insurance company. And these statements are attempting to justify this because of a dangerous...

So just to be clear... The Taylor's filed the suit, not the insurance company. And these statements are attempting to justify this because of a dangerous condition on the track that was not fixed, but everybody raced on it anyways?

ToolMaker wrote:
I don't know anything about this and have never been to LACR. My interpretation, from reading the statement, that you didn't know it was a cliff...

I don't know anything about this and have never been to LACR. My interpretation, from reading the statement, that you didn't know it was a cliff on the backside unless you were at the top of the berm. Is that correct? If so you have no idea of the danger? Or am I reading this wrong?

TM

50dippin wrote:
There is no way you can miss it, it is clearly visible from the parking lot, entry to the track and other parts of the track...

There is no way you can miss it, it is clearly visible from the parking lot, entry to the track and other parts of the track when riding.  I rode there with that layout and never really thought much of it.  The biggest danger at that track is the wind hands down.

Thank you. From the statement, when he said after he walked back to the pits he could no longer see it, again going only from the statement, it sounded like you'd only know if you got to the top of the berm.

byke
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6/5/2024 1:53pm
All of you arguing about whether it was a cliff or different than other berms etc were not there, but Rick Ryan was and testified under...

All of you arguing about whether it was a cliff or different than other berms etc were not there, but Rick Ryan was and testified under oath.  I trust a prior pro that was there in person more than any Go Pro footage or pictures....which absolutely does not show grade accurately.   

So, the berm was dangerous and built poorly.  Regardless, in my opinion it is up to the riders and their parents (if minors) to be sure they know the track and try to be as safe as possible.  I honesty cannot believe RT sued the track even with the terrible injuries.  Asking the industry for support, using the scenario to make other tracks better, or really anything else.  It's like suing a family member.  Maybe the owners wronged him in the past or something.  Who knows, but it smells like shit, so therefore......it is.

Can you explain what was uniquely dangerous about it and what about made you think it was poorly built? It looks like a big berm on an incline, which comes with its own set of concerns like any obstacle does. Like you obviously don't want to go full send off of a berm, So what was different from the normal way riders are supposed to handle big berms? I honestly can't see it in the video. It just looks like another big berm that you don't want to go shooting off of. What's different? 

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6/5/2024 1:56pm Edited Date/Time 6/5/2024 9:39pm

It’s at least good to see ML has stopped dropping in to defend and minimize what RT did. It’s hard to defend the indefensible but I appreciate a solid effort.

 

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aees
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6/5/2024 2:05pm
Meister wrote:
Whats the difference between whiskey throttling off this berm or a big faced double on a track and completely overshooting the landing? I think its BS...

Whats the difference between whiskey throttling off this berm or a big faced double on a track and completely overshooting the landing? I think its BS they moved on with the lawsuit.

 

Without starting another thread.... IS there ANY acceptable circumstances where you may entertain the idea if you received life altering injuries at a track? I can only come up with 1 in my head. 

Track is the track. Whats around it, or in this case not, is a different thing. Same reason you can't park track equipment a feet from the track, things can go bad.

That would never have passed a serious track saftey review. Result would have been to put up a fence at the top of the berm, or cut it down.

I would never have built It like that in the first place. As mentioned, if you run a track professionally, you got to take responsibility.

​​​​​

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yak651
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6/5/2024 2:10pm
All of you arguing about whether it was a cliff or different than other berms etc were not there, but Rick Ryan was and testified under...

All of you arguing about whether it was a cliff or different than other berms etc were not there, but Rick Ryan was and testified under oath.  I trust a prior pro that was there in person more than any Go Pro footage or pictures....which absolutely does not show grade accurately.   

So, the berm was dangerous and built poorly.  Regardless, in my opinion it is up to the riders and their parents (if minors) to be sure they know the track and try to be as safe as possible.  I honesty cannot believe RT sued the track even with the terrible injuries.  Asking the industry for support, using the scenario to make other tracks better, or really anything else.  It's like suing a family member.  Maybe the owners wronged him in the past or something.  Who knows, but it smells like shit, so therefore......it is.

byke wrote:
Can you explain what was uniquely dangerous about it and what about made you think it was poorly built? It looks like a big berm on...

Can you explain what was uniquely dangerous about it and what about made you think it was poorly built? It looks like a big berm on an incline, which comes with its own set of concerns like any obstacle does. Like you obviously don't want to go full send off of a berm, So what was different from the normal way riders are supposed to handle big berms? I honestly can't see it in the video. It just looks like another big berm that you don't want to go shooting off of. What's different? 

Exactly, I wouldn’t give a second thought to racing a track with a berm like that. I raced in the early 90s when every jump was peaked, and the landing was more so. I would consider living through that way more sketchy than the berm shown. Can those that ride it that claim it was a cliff provide a pic that shows something different than what we’ve been provided so far? Surely there has to be more to this cliff berm than we are being shown??!

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Meister
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6/5/2024 2:16pm

It scares me for our sport that more than a few think this is justified. Disgusting. 

You can feel bad for the injuries of the accident for sure but man i can't believe people support the suit. 

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I just remembered a very similar incident at the Oatfield, probably 12 years ago. Vet rider got out of shape going into a big berm at the end of a flat, fast straight. Whiskey throttled off the berm, over a chain link fence, and into the open back of a toy hauler parked next to the fence. I recall I was on the gate, and they held us there for a looooong time until they cleared the area. A helicopter came in and flew him out. It can happen on any track at any turn with a berm, well designed or not. This one was flat ground and the outcome was bad.

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McG194
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6/5/2024 2:17pm

If I don't recall correctly didn't Haiden Deegan crash jumping into the Gator Pit at the Mini O's a couple years ago? I thought it was a crash at the top of the big downhill and he tumbled all the way down. 

How is a crash on a track at the top of a gnarly downhill any different than blowing over a berm and landing at the bottom? A lot of tracks have drops that are much greater than that berm and could result in severe injuries. Is a precedent now set that a 20-30 steep downhill is an unacceptable risk? I know if I was an ambulance chaser I'd be using that on every case I could find. 

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overdrive09
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6/5/2024 2:18pm

RT is and has always been a douche. Just took a few people longer to figure that out. He was always out for himself no matter what.

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byke
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6/5/2024 2:47pm
I just remembered a very similar incident at the Oatfield, probably 12 years ago. Vet rider got out of shape going into a big berm at...

I just remembered a very similar incident at the Oatfield, probably 12 years ago. Vet rider got out of shape going into a big berm at the end of a flat, fast straight. Whiskey throttled off the berm, over a chain link fence, and into the open back of a toy hauler parked next to the fence. I recall I was on the gate, and they held us there for a looooong time until they cleared the area. A helicopter came in and flew him out. It can happen on any track at any turn with a berm, well designed or not. This one was flat ground and the outcome was bad.

Didn't that spot have some jumps and dips coming into the corner? If it's the spot I'm thinking of, I could see messing up those jumps, a hand popping off, then you're coming hot into a 90 left and you're really going for a ride.

Not to imply anything needed to be done about it, because that's kind of true for nearly every portion of every track. 

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6/5/2024 2:55pm
NSP139 wrote:
Ya I'm worried about the presadence this sets! Insurance companies see this and rates go higher or just cancel! No wonder entry fees have been going...

Ya I'm worried about the presadence this sets! Insurance companies see this and rates go higher or just cancel! No wonder entry fees have been going up around here!

Or they may ban anyone under the age of 18 from riding or racing. Surprised the government hasn't stepped in yet. Bottom line is that Taylor wasn't looking out for his kid, he's just another mini dad in my book.

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6/5/2024 3:05pm
I just remembered a very similar incident at the Oatfield, probably 12 years ago. Vet rider got out of shape going into a big berm at...

I just remembered a very similar incident at the Oatfield, probably 12 years ago. Vet rider got out of shape going into a big berm at the end of a flat, fast straight. Whiskey throttled off the berm, over a chain link fence, and into the open back of a toy hauler parked next to the fence. I recall I was on the gate, and they held us there for a looooong time until they cleared the area. A helicopter came in and flew him out. It can happen on any track at any turn with a berm, well designed or not. This one was flat ground and the outcome was bad.

byke wrote:
Didn't that spot have some jumps and dips coming into the corner? If it's the spot I'm thinking of, I could see messing up those jumps...

Didn't that spot have some jumps and dips coming into the corner? If it's the spot I'm thinking of, I could see messing up those jumps, a hand popping off, then you're coming hot into a 90 left and you're really going for a ride.

Not to imply anything needed to be done about it, because that's kind of true for nearly every portion of every track. 

This was on the 120 degree right in the far NE corner of the track. It was just a fast straight but it usually got really rough by moto 10 or so. Real easy to lose your grip there and get in trouble. I remember quite a few big crashes there over the years with bad consequences and helicopter rides out. Still, some of the best dirt anywhere and Jack was a master of prep. Always loved racing it.

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byke
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6/5/2024 3:09pm
Rich Taylor, from respected rider and industry person to scum. Sorry his kid had a nasty crash, don't wish that on anyone. But, kid made his...

Rich Taylor, from respected rider and industry person to scum. Sorry his kid had a nasty crash, don't wish that on anyone. But, kid made his own mistake, the track certainly didn't mess up and hit that berm straight on at high speed. 

 

I think this is too much, imo. Most likely his decision to sue was based on some sort of rational fear, either fear of his family's finances, or fear of his kid's future, or something roughly along those lines. It makes no sense for any of it to be malicious, which is what would warrant "scum".

Dude I knew used to say, "morals are a wonderful thing, if you can afford them" and it's something to chew on for a minute, because there's some layers to it beyond the obvious monetary, like what sort of kindnesses are you in a position to spare, and how cruel would you be to protect what you have? Shit's always more complex than they seem. 

Without seeing more info, this did not look like it was a well substantiated case and was likely only settled because the two insurance companies involved are bunch of nerds. 

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