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If they sold this gear cheap and did not copy the design and logos I would have no problem with it.
What they are doing is stealing the branding to leverage the marketing they spent no money on.
This should be self evident to most without having to get into the details of how much work and associated cost goes into bringing a product to market.
What business do you own? Because I’m gonna go do the same thing, slap your business logo on it, do it for 1/2 the price you do with less quality. It’s no problem right?
What you are replying to isn’t in response to the gear thing. We’re talking about general track expenses. Completely different topic.
For the gear, I said I absolutely do not support it. That stuff is back door’d. I won’t shame someone that buys it, because I don’t know peoples finances. But I’m not a fan. The solution would be brands made their gear in the USA.
I wasn’t quoting you for the expenses. in one of your responses you stated
“FXR’s owner Milt is a few hundred-millionaire. I think the brand will be just fine, even with these back door deals. As mentioned, I don’t personally support it. But I couldn’t care less if people do.”
It’s not about if the brand will be fine or not. You should care if people support this type of knock off stuff. If you can’t afford a real set of gear then you probably should look at getting rid of the bike because this isn’t the hobby for you. But like I said in my other response, if you couldn’t care less if people support knock off stuff, then let me pretend to be your business and see if you still have the same mentality. Counterfeit products tarnish the real brand, and allow these people to keep doing it. The more you allow someone to support this, the more they will do it.
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In the quote you just posted I literally said I don’t support it.
You’d rather have someone not involved in the sport than buy some gear off Temu? That’s a crazy fucking sense of entitlement.
You can absolutely give you best shot at trying to run a spin-off business of mine. We are service based. A members only boxing academy. One of the largest in the world, with the lowest fee’s in the world. You absolutely would not affect my business. This year we are trending at 50,000 members per month at $200 a month. If someone wanted to try running a spin off I would not lose sleep. Why? Because I know the service we provide, at the value we provide it at is unmatched. I know we aren’t scamming out clientele. So why worry?
Similar to Milt, who when he gets the valuation of half a billion for FXR, does not lose sleep over maybe $100k in lost business per year.
Successful business owners do not lose sleep over shittier spin-off products being offered because they believe in the value their product provides.
Is there anything studworx is not an expert in or wrong about? 😂🤦♂️
As for Milt, he built a great brand and deserves every million he makes.
Your last comment is pure BS. Tons of consumers are trading down due to cost and that poaches sales and market share.
The problem is that the knock offs hurt the legit brands branding. Lets say Renner starts up a copy of your biz. And he provides shitty service . That customer is telling everybody he is using Your service and people see the things that he has learned and have no way of knowing that You did not teach him those bad habits. Now that may only get around to a handful of people per customer that he signs up. But since You have a large customer base already, the chances of him pulling in a large amount of customers is pretty good . And it would hurt Your reputation.
BIG brands spend tons of money stopping knock offs. Because of the many ways they can reflect badly along with the lost income. Mostly to protect the branding they have worked hard to build. Most of what makes a big brand popular costs money . Write off or not, You are still paying for those things with the money You take in from customers. Unless You are a money launderer or operating at a loss.
If the branding has $0 value to somebody, Buy the gear that is not branded or has one of their own brands . If its just about the cheap gear. Buy the no name stuff that is sold on the same sites. Or buy some legit close out gear from a local shop or online.
Making the gear in the US would not stop knock offs. Anytime you have something that is based off branding and design, You will have people steal it.
Making product in the US won't eliminate counterfeit product. It's very easy to take someone's product and replicate it at a lower cost factory. Not just apparel but hardgoods as well.
The only way to get rid of knockoff product is to not support the companies that are producing it.
Great point. I buy the real stuff. But I also do not buy anything that a rider I don’t care for uses and gets paid for. There are so many choices. I support the little guys like X brand goggles Rich Taylor an old privateer and test rider got them going. Support who you want to support. I will never spend 150$. On goggles period. Don’t care if Jett wears them.
Agree, my point is creating the product in the USA is it should give it a clear advantage in the quality department. Making the difference in quality justify the price.
Or you continue making products in China, Vietnam, etc to cut costs and increase margins and live with the fact that the product won’t be levels above what these factories can replicate at a quarter of the cost to consumer. What you lose in sales to the spin-offs, is still far less than what it would cost to shift production to the USA or Europe. It’s a decision they factor in.
It’s only an issue when the spin-off is so similar you can’t tell a difference, or so similar that even the very minor changes make it worth the reduction in quality for a 200% discount.
Is there a clear difference in quality and durability from an SG12 (European made) to a Fox Instinct (Asian made)? Manufacturing in first world nations does lead to a better product.
It’s a fun discussion to have. End of the day, nothing will change
Although I agree with you that manufacturing in the US won't eliminate counterfeit product, there are copyright and intellectual property laws in the USA that allow a firm to sue for financial restitution.
Companies producing in Asia (minus Japan) are well aware of these risks, or at least they should be.
It could be possible that FXR or whoever, is fine with knockoffs.
Varying quality of goods makes it a gamble for US consumers as to whether they get the real goods at a discount or get fake goods and waste their money.
Humans are risk averse, and would feel more comfortable paying more for the real product from a US seller, so having the fakes in circulation allows the company the advantage of low wage overseas manufacturing coupled with a free/low cost public image campaign telling consumers to "Be certain you get the good stuff, Buy our stuff from us, not from the people who make it".
I can’t imagine any business owner operating in smaller niche markets like ours would welcome knockoffs of their products. I know in the gun accessory business it’s a huge problem with high end scope mounts and bipods. Sometimes the business will allow a cheaper version to be marketed as “airsoft” and not for real weapon use. Leupold’s scope reputation has been pretty tarnished over the flood of Chinese copies that are sold at pretty high prices and are thought to be legit by the consumer.
How quickly would Renthal/ProTaper be thrown under the bus if a few thousand Chinese copies were passed off as legit and were snapping and getting racers hurt or killed? Now if you’re the guy who buys a $40 pair of off color purple Twinwalls knowing they’re not legit and they fail, well you took the risk and lost.
The easiest way for smaller companies to throw money away is trying to go after these knockoffs on these Chinese marketplace websites. The amount of time and resources it would take to even find out where these things are actually coming from then trying to sue a foreign company, good luck.
You only buy one bike this lifetime?
Overwhelming argument. I concede
You want to see a company go after counterfeit goods or using their logo without permission, try reproducing something with the red bull logo on it. They hunt people down and stop them regardless of size.
Andy White from FXR has made several posts on social media identifying fake FXR E Commerce sites. They care. Bootlegged product, especially lower quality ones hurt the brand. Brand equity is kind of a thing.
Pit Row
Hmmm, I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know. However the claim you're making isn't well fleshed out, that if Andy White says
"Be certain you get the good stuff, Buy our stuff from us, not from the people who make it" that means he doesn't benefit from the counterfeits.
I'm saying the more the company makes those claims, the more it benefits their situation of using low cost labor while also discouraging direct sales from the manufacturer.
They own the IP, it’s their brand. Everyone uses offshore labour, if they didn’t it would not be a profitable business model. Not all knock offs come out of the factory producing them. Most of them don’t.
No idea what you’re saying doesn’t flesh out. I said brands care, because they do. Go try to or be part of building a successful brand. It takes a ton of resources and investment.
"Everyone uses offshore labor, if they didn’t it would not be a profitable business model."
Actually no, several riding gear companies manufacture in the US, there are suggestions listed on this thread.
"They own the IP, it’s their brand."
Once the stuff gets made in China and some other countries (I'm not well versed in international property law), then the government owns it the IP.
"No idea what you’re saying doesn’t flesh out. I said brands care, because they do."
You comment that didn't flesh out was when you provided evidence that counterfeits hurt brands but it's exactly what I thought brands could do to benefit from counterfeiters. ex. Scare consumers into not buying direct.
"Go try to or be part of building a successful brand. It takes a ton of resources and investment."
Thanks for the insight! Youtube told me it would be cheap and easy, so I'm glad I know the truth now!
It just comes down to stealing. And people justifying theft . It is that basic.
Retail stores adjust prices to cover loss from people stealing stuff. So when people steal from that giant store, they are really just making stuff cost more for everybody else who pays for their candy bar, power tool, or whatever popular to steal item. Cost of all items not just the ones that get stolen, are impacted.
Could Big brands be doing something similar? And pricing counterfeits into the prices? Possible Lawsuits for failed knock offs priced in? Could Sticking it to the big brands by buying knock offs really just be sticking it to Yourself by raising the cost of items overall?
Theft of any kind is still theft.
Do you buy one bike a week and only ride once in your lifetime?
$30,000 + 80 x 52 x $7,000 + $1,000 + $1,000 + $50 = $29,152,050
or do you buy one bike in your lifetime and ride once per week?
$30,000 + $7,000 + $1,000 + $1,000 + 80 x 52 x $50 = $247,000
Me, I'm somewhere in between, but I spend more on gear, tools, fluids and parts in a lifetime!
The government does not own the IP when stuff is made in China, there is no IP on stuff made in China or any other country, unless a company has registered the trademark and patented the stuff in that country.
If you have a US trademark and have it manufactured in Germany, the manufacturer or anybody else can sell it in Germany if it hasn't been trademarked in Germany.
You sure about that? There is a ton of fake Redbull stuff available online here too..
the bottom one isn’t Real Redbull, shit it isn’t even a real Shoei
Yes I’m sure about it
Point well taken, and I think mine stands as well. For *most* riders, money spent on track time is probably a small minority of the total spend required
Thats what it is. Usually fakes are awful and easy to tell.
I was browsing some of the gear . And they have Renen stuff, they have just about every brands design with Fox logos on them inplace of the FXR , Thor, Leatt, etc. And Some Thor branded Leatt and other brands designs with Thor on them.
Arai and Shoei street helmets. Both those brands along with Renen are NOT made in China to begin with.
There may be some legit backdoor stuff, I have seen some in person that looked spot on. But there is also a TON of fake stuff.
Yeah this stuff didn’t come from China, not saying it wasnt made there, but it was shipped from Vietnam..
Does anyone know where most of this stuff is Originally made?
Post a reply to: I bought a set of Fake Riding Gear..