Changing From '23 GG MC350F To '22 CRF250R?

wrc777
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2/16/2024 5:26am
Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. I have definitely NOT made up my mind or convinced myself one way or another otherwise I would not have...

Thanks for the thoughts and opinions. I have definitely NOT made up my mind or convinced myself one way or another otherwise I would not have posted this. Smile

The question is genuine and is a dilemma because on the one hand I feel that with a 250F I have the potential to push it harder and get more out of the bike while continuing to improve my riding and get back into shape. Whereas with my current 350 I have that extra power available, but I do not find myself riding it high enough in the RPM range to actually use it all. That is why I feel a 250f with good bottom-end power that can be rode lower in the rpm range would be a good option. I am not a screamer. That said I also do not think I am really a 450 guy either as although I like the idea of riding around in 3rd gear, I am not sure I want that the extra weight feeling and that immediate on-tap power delivery that can easily get me into trouble. The new KX450 sounds like it could be worth some consideration but I am not in a position to spend what a brand new KX costs. I can wait a year and purchase one used for a few thousand less. Maybe get an opportunity to ride one this year. Not sure if I would regret that heavier 450 feeling. 

But back to the original topic. I have read about the "harshness" of the new Honda chassis. What options exist to address that? Would split triple clamps and bar mounts with elastomers reduce that rigid feel? Do engine mounts make any difference? In terms of stability, for a guy at my skill, am I really riding fast enough for that to be a huge concern once the suspension is dialed in for me? 

Just trying to make an informed decision without the ability to ride one. I know people who own every bike BUT the newer CRF250r. Go figure. 

Your 350 probably makes as much power in the rpm range you are riding that a 250 will near redline. You added an ECU to a 350 to get more bottom end. A 250 will never has as much bottom end as a stock 350.

 

I know what you want. You want all the power you need without revving the bike out. You also don't want the bike to be too fast when you rev it out so it is easy to ride. These things don't exist in the same bike (maybe an RMZ-450?) A 23+ KTM 250/300 2 stroke will give you lots of snap off the bottom without revving to the moon but being a 2 stroke the back end will dance around a lot. The power comes on quick but it doesn't keep pulling like a four stroke so a whiskey throttle doesn't feel as dangerous.  Anything with enough bottom end to make you happy is going to be just as fast or faster on top than the bike you have now.

 

Make sure you get a good test ride on any 250 before you buy it. You may hate it. You could talk to tuners and ask them if they can turn down the top end power on your 350 while leaving the bottom end alone. They should be able to lower the rev limiter at least. That is basically how the 350 enduro models (XCF-w not the XCF) are set up.

2
2/16/2024 6:32am

If you have a tunable ECM, Why don't you just get a custom map that dials the 350 power to where you want it and like said above, Suspension is by far the most important thing I find with the guys I help that just there sag can be off by millimeters and it throws them completely off the 350 I rode wasn't sprung even remotely close for me so I'm going to test a different one and get back to you, The 350 can be made to do about anything.

2
RaceFan
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2/16/2024 7:24am Edited Date/Time 2/16/2024 7:24am

I’m on a CRF250R(3rd one since) and came from a 350SXF. If you can get the 350 suspension working, the motor is absolutely superb and worlds better for a vet than a 250. For me it was just a case of not being able to get anyone that could sort out the suspension.

1
2/16/2024 7:34am

An ECU my someone like XPR is also going to settle the chassis. 

That did the trick for me. Obviously its not as stable as my 21' YZ but its pretty damn close and ill take the handling in corners over a loss of a little high sped stability any day. 

2

The Shop

wr74
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2/17/2024 2:24am

I made the same switch you’re contemplating, went from a 22 350sxf to a 23 crf250r.

plusses and minuses, and no perfect answer as to the perfect bike, I’ve found out.

for reference, I’ve owned an 18 fc350, 20 450 sxf, 21 crf450r, 22 350 sxf and now the 23 250r, over the last five years or so.  Medium speed 49 yo vet, about 190 pounds.

I loved many things about the Austrian 350’s (and 450), but the big turn off for me was the vibration.  My hands were numb after 5 laps on all my Austrian bikes I listed.  And for whatever reason (I blame poor assembly in the covid madness era) the 22 350 vibrated the worst of all of them.  When I got the 21 crf450r I couldn’t believe how refined and solid it felt compared to the Austrian bikes.  
 

prople will say the Hondas are twitchy, but it’s not really an accurate description.  The front end on the Hondas actually feels very planted.  But occasionally it reacts very unexpectedly (the twitch) which seems to come out of nowhere.  My 450 did this, but have not felt the same on the 250r.  The 22 350sxf is not twitchy, but I would describe it as feeling loose at speed.  You can feel the lack of frame stiffness and it not always a positive.  This is exacerbated by the air fork, which in my opinion is a joke compared to a real fork with a spring in each side.  
 

Both bikes corner well, but the Honda 250r is next level.  I can take inside ruts on this bike like no other I’ve ever owned. 
 

power is where it gets down to business.  The 250r simply has nowhere near the output of the 350.  You have to shift a lot more.  The Honda has good low end and responsiveness for a 250f, but it isn’t in the same postcode as a 350f.

overall, I still like the 250r, as it’s a very well built bike, great to work on in the garage, looks amazing, and built with high quality components. 

But to be honest, my next bike will be either a 350 or even 450.

5
sandtrack315
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2/17/2024 11:14am
mgifracing wrote:
If you have a tunable ECM, Why don't you just get a custom map that dials the 350 power to where you want it and like...

If you have a tunable ECM, Why don't you just get a custom map that dials the 350 power to where you want it and like said above, Suspension is by far the most important thing I find with the guys I help that just there sag can be off by millimeters and it throws them completely off the 350 I rode wasn't sprung even remotely close for me so I'm going to test a different one and get back to you, The 350 can be made to do about anything.

You can’t tune rotating mass.

1
1
2/17/2024 1:21pm
Forty wrote:
Current 250f are IMO the perfect bike NOW, with the programable mapping, they offer what I believe to be the best of all worlds for MX. ...

Current 250f are IMO the perfect bike NOW, with the programable mapping, they offer what I believe to be the best of all worlds for MX.  Lighter total weight, very good to excellent torque achievability, HP numbers that work for the vast majority of amateur riders, excellent, tunable suspension, quality OEM parts, and aftermarket parts availability is endless.  

The 350cc motocross bike was a gap filler that at the time of introduction in the early 2010's was deemed "the perfect size" and I don't think that applies anymore, at least not like it used to.  

 

Yes, I've ridden and raced them all, and again this is my opinion.  

If I were shopping for a new bike now, it would be a 250f.  

hit the nail on the head with this post. 

183Matt wrote:
Agreed.  I’ve riden all the Austrian bikes, 2 stroke and 4 stroke in the last few years.  Riden with every combination of suspension from A kit...

Agreed.  I’ve riden all the Austrian bikes, 2 stroke and 4 stroke in the last few years.  Riden with every combination of suspension from A kit cone valves and Traxx, Ohlins, KYB, MX Tech, etc…. I was last racing a 450 KTM, both a SXF in vet/senior moto and a XCF off-road, I then switched to a new Yamaha 250f.  Immediately with stock suspension I was able to hang with my group on the MX track who were still on 450’s.  Same thing off-road.  The biggest difference is I don’t get tired near as soon now.  For reference, I’m 230 lbs dressed to ride.  If you’re on the fence about a 250, don’t be. The modern 250f’s are so good! Also, some people just jell better with the aluminum framed bikes.  Once the Austrians switched from the 18’ frame, they have just been going down hill IMO, but not everyone will agree with that thought.

100% agreed on your comfort comment. I put 40 hrs. on a 19 350SFX WITH JBI modded suspension. 
I rode my friends 18 and knew it was more comfortable than my 19. I sold the 350 (took a short break after a digger) and now have 10 hrs. on a 22 YZ250F. I can actually be functional after a day at the track! No couching it the rest of the weekend. I have a spicy map I got from a local pro with stock suspension and feel just as fast on this bike. Whoda’ thunk? 

2
Moto520
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2/19/2024 11:55am

Adjust the ergos of the KTM and keep it.  They are reliable and you will miss that power.  Get a taller seat and taller handlebar holders.  Adjust to it.....

Xracer
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2/25/2024 10:30am

The KTM 350 ruined my life.  Allow me to explain:  I was an early-adopter of 4-strokes after being spat off 250 2-strokes for years.  I was about quit and take up golf in 2002, then I rode a friend's new 03' YZ250F and I was hooked. I rode blue 250F's from 03'-17', when I got a too-good-to-pass-up deal on a 5-hour KTM350.  At first it felt a bit cumbersome and "darty", but omg that engine!  The perfect amount of bottom & mid smoothness and a top-end rush that had me nipping the heels of 450's on long straights.  So amazing, I was getting around the track and through the woods faster than I had in years. But...I started crashing again. Big ones. Something that I thought I had put behind me 15 years prior. It was happening in rough, fast corners mainly...I just wasn't feeling the front tire or something. I assumed it was the dumb air fork so I did the smart thing and put a small fortune into suspension work. And kept crashing. And the bike now felt weird and foreign and I was questioning the direction I was going with spring rates and settings and life choices in general.  So I cut losses and went back to a blue 250f in 21'.  I no longer crash, but damn I really miss the 350 engine. You forget how much frantic shifting and clutching comes with a 250.  Long straights that I would cover in 3rd gear from corner to corner on the 350 are now a lot of drama. But...no limping. No handfuls of ibuprofen throughout the summer.  I'm content. But it's like marrying the librarian after dating a stripper. I keep looking at 350's on marketplace. I sometimes visit the local Austrian store just to stand and gaze...feel that fantastic Brembo clutch and reminisce about simple air filter maintenance and durable plastics. It sucks in a way. I was perfectly happy with 250F's for almost 15 years and wish I had never tried the 350...I'd still be blissfully happy today. Yamaha...build it and they will come. 

TDC
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2/25/2024 1:28pm

A YZ250 smoker is the answer. It always has been the ideal power level. Unlike a 250F. Their torque allows you to ride at a lower RPM, i.e. short-shift, but still roll power on for a fast pace. It turns, it's stable and KYB baby.

FYI. there's a new after-market upper power-valve spring kit, as to get a more modern linear powerband. By HITLIS, they have YT videos with POV rides and product install details. 

I'm an average Vet rider I suppose. I don't do the biggest jumps, but I get aggressive everywhere else. I didn't like ringing out my '22 YZ250F, so I replaced it with a '24 300SX. Best decision ever. Shoot, even my mod'd and upgraded old 200SX parked my 250F. 

Xracer
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2/25/2024 4:41pm
TDC wrote:
A YZ250 smoker is the answer. It always has been the ideal power level. Unlike a 250F. Their torque allows you to ride at a lower...

A YZ250 smoker is the answer. It always has been the ideal power level. Unlike a 250F. Their torque allows you to ride at a lower RPM, i.e. short-shift, but still roll power on for a fast pace. It turns, it's stable and KYB baby.

FYI. there's a new after-market upper power-valve spring kit, as to get a more modern linear powerband. By HITLIS, they have YT videos with POV rides and product install details. 

I'm an average Vet rider I suppose. I don't do the biggest jumps, but I get aggressive everywhere else. I didn't like ringing out my '22 YZ250F, so I replaced it with a '24 300SX. Best decision ever. Shoot, even my mod'd and upgraded old 200SX parked my 250F. 

I'd like to try a 300SX, but it's the KTM chassis I don't agree with.  I sorta feel like the last thing it needs is a 2-stroke engine with a steep power curve.  I could be wrong. 

wrc777
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2/26/2024 5:12am
TDC wrote:
A YZ250 smoker is the answer. It always has been the ideal power level. Unlike a 250F. Their torque allows you to ride at a lower...

A YZ250 smoker is the answer. It always has been the ideal power level. Unlike a 250F. Their torque allows you to ride at a lower RPM, i.e. short-shift, but still roll power on for a fast pace. It turns, it's stable and KYB baby.

FYI. there's a new after-market upper power-valve spring kit, as to get a more modern linear powerband. By HITLIS, they have YT videos with POV rides and product install details. 

I'm an average Vet rider I suppose. I don't do the biggest jumps, but I get aggressive everywhere else. I didn't like ringing out my '22 YZ250F, so I replaced it with a '24 300SX. Best decision ever. Shoot, even my mod'd and upgraded old 200SX parked my 250F. 

Xracer wrote:
I'd like to try a 300SX, but it's the KTM chassis I don't agree with.  I sorta feel like the last thing it needs is a...

I'd like to try a 300SX, but it's the KTM chassis I don't agree with.  I sorta feel like the last thing it needs is a 2-stroke engine with a steep power curve.  I could be wrong. 

The chassis actually works better with the 2 stroke engine than the 4 stroke. It doesn't feel as harsh. The steering/traction is still pretty similar though and ergos are obviously identical.

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