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You state repeatedly the varg is a better mousetrap. Stark's goal is to beat the ICE bikes, period. There is no other competition.
At the same time out of the other side of your mouth your crying to let them race with no consideration for a competitive advantage.
Sounds like a sucker job to me.
Like I said before. If you want to go racing you build a bike to the rules Like Triumph, Beta and Ducati. I guess Anton is so smart he don't need to. How is building a bike and trying to change the rules working out of you? Where are all the E-tards that claimed the AMA would open the doors wide open? Looks like they are still here.
When e- Bikes, Like the Alta came on the scene. We didn’t allow them in the rulebook on purpose. We said that we would consider allowing on a limited basis under supplemental rules. I was not handling off-road at the time, but I can’t find anything where their supplemental rules were submitted and approved. I’m not saying they were not submitted and approved, I’m just saying that I can’t find a paper trail that says they were. When they submitted them this year and I saw it in there Consistent with our current policy we said no to the e bikes. Promoters, allowing bikes that are not approved in the AMA rules to race are opening themselves up to tremendous liability
Ok I am out of my depth here but basically you are saying that Endurocross organizer likely took a great risk authorizing electrics for years?
I am an optimist, hopefully when some national federations find a way to safely include electrics in their series, others can follow. Looks like Aussies, Brits and us French will be the guinea pigs for 2024. The Stark is already raced at amateur level in lots of other countries, but as far as pro competition goes I think that's it at the moment.
So is there any problem with a local AMA track offering a Varg only class? Or Full sized electric class? If not what is the issue? At that point the noise issues are not issues anymore than they would be at a bicycle race. Having them on the track on the same days as gas bikes would give real world data for lap times to compare them to Gas bikes.
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Maybe my predecessor approved it. The Endurocross promoter is a sharp guy. I cant see him doing it without approval.
That would most likely get approved. MX Sports is doing it at the Ricky Carmichael Amateur SX at Daytona this year.
If Electric motocross bikes are not safe to race on a track, some riders are not safe to race on a track, as shown by Vince Friese's recent takeout of Dean Wilson, Dean wasn't aware of Vince's 450f until it was too late...
It's hypocritical to ban a bike on safety grounds, but allow unsafe riding to be allowed.
I can understand the competitive balance issue.
I will give you credit. You're the best around this place when it comes to telling folks how to handle their business.
The AMA's mission is to "promote the motorcycle lifestyle and protect the future of motorcycling", not to maintain the existing OEM's status quo.
Thanks old guy
appreciate sharing your insight here.
You're a two faced clown. I have been saying the exact same thing for months and all you ever did was chop me down and run me through the combine.
But he is saying it as an AMA official/worker.
I think if You did not delete and edit stuff to change what You said and deny it. Along with just trying to argue for fun, maybe You would not get "chopped down".
How come no one ever thanks MX for his insight, his brilliantly argued points and civil conversations will remain one of the greatest mysteries of our time.
To him at least
Seriously MX, are you really surprised others don't take you seriously when so many of your prolific contributions are filled with ranting, being rude and insulting to those you disagree with?
That was great to have an adult conversation, I do appreciate people with actual knowledge and input in the situation sharing their insight with this tough crowd. Now we can go back to exchanging our insignificant opinions.
Sure I did...
Okay then, SlowOldGuy, I'm not trying to be obtuse here or pick a fight for the sake of fighting (like, ahem, some might), but if the reason the Varg shouldn't be allowed to race is because it doesn't emit a loud exhaust note, then I have a question or two.
1.) What if someone came out with a muffler that made a four-stroke ICE race bike so quiet you could barely hear it - would it be legal to race it in AMA races?
2.) Is there a minimum AMA legal noise level that no one knows about?
3.) Why is it legal for a racer to wear ear plugs?
4.) Why was Ashley Fiolek allowed to race? Wasn't she a danger to others?
Thanks for the reply, should you decide to make one.
1.) What if someone came out with a muffler that made a four-stroke ICE race bike so quiet you could barely hear it - would it be legal to race it in AMA races?
That is not a serious question. It is the same as asking if someone came out with a 450 that made 1000 horsepower would that be legal. Both have the same chance of happening. Both are hypotheticals that have no basis in reality. I guess the answer is that we would cross that bridge when we come to it. FYI, the current sound regulations in SX is 114 db. My understanding is that a Stark is around 60db or so.
2.) Is there a minimum AMA legal noise level that no one knows about?
There is not. Remember, Stark is asking us to change the rules to let them in. The current rules do not allow for electric bikes in gas bike classes. The lack of sound is just one of the reasons the AMA is not allowing it at this time. The second is making sure there is competitive balance. We are not going to just allow them and see what happens.
3.) Why is it legal for a racer to wear ear plugs?
A racer can choose to wear earplugs. A more relevant question would be should a racer be able to force everyone on the track to wear ear plugs. If the AMA allows a Stark to race with ICE bikes, we would be forcing all of the other riders on the track to accept that there are bikes on the track that they cant hear.
4.) Why was Ashley Fiolek allowed to race? Wasn't she a danger to others?
Again, the question you are asking is not relevant. No one forced Ashley to race while not being able to hear. That was her choice. Ashley didn't force all of the other riders to race while not being able to hear .
Hopefully this answers your questions.
It seems like the equivalent horse power question would be easy to figure out. As for safety and worries that it is too quiet. Just put a light weight speaker on the thing with throttle position modulating the volume of this sound.
problem solved.
Looks like AMA is being cautious in their approach, change takes time. Other championships and federations like AX UK, Motorcycle Australia or FFM are more proactive so the equivalent power issue will get sorted there.
Road racing championships like world superbikes have forever been playing with technical rules to allow fair competition between very different engines (for instance 4 cylinders 1000cc vs twin cylinders 1200cc), they even adjust technical requirements during the season, allowing more or less revs and so on based on race results...
Honestly it's quite complicated... but with electrics all it would take is literally just a slider to move to adjust the power of electrics to higher or lower level if required.
Just like the "buzzer" issue, this does not seem to be such a big hurdle, it will just take more time in some countries than others, that's all.
Although it's frustrating, it's quite logical for major championships (with major commercial interests) to let "lower profile" championships (no disrespect) sort things out before they make their move.
Hopefully AMA will find it easier to let electrics compete in various vet open categories so amateurs can "run what they brung". It could be a way for AMA to gather information and test waters without any industry pressure?
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I was thinking that allowing them into Vet and open classes in local AMA sanctioned racing ( after the sound issue is addressed). Would make sense and not risk giving a big advantage to the electric that would impact major races. With so many tracks running transponders now , it would give them lots of data to see as far as lap times go. I think the biggest advantage would be the start's .
And they could always have the rules that allow the Varg's or other electrics to race be adjusted. Even though they would be in open classes, make it so they limited the power on them so they could get data with lower power levels too. And have it in the rules that they may lower or raise the max allowable power or ad more requirements for them to be able to race against gas bikes.
Wanting to make sure they get the power limits or other limits at the proper levels so that there is not a giant advantage like 4 strokes have makes sense. The lack of sound , seems like it should be a pretty easy thing to fix for stark or anybody able to make a bike like the Varg.
As much as I want to see a Varg in an AMA SX , taking the time to get power levels right makes sense. Like if there was never a 250 and 450, it would be much easier for the AMA to set CC levels lower and all the manufacturer's to make 200 and 350cc bikes or whatever and sell them. But now that the general public has the bikes that are out , it would be a harder sell to get people to buy those bikes now. But if they had made them, perhaps a lower CC advantage for 4 strokes would have resulted in 2 strokes sticking around in Pro racing to a higher degree. Taking the time to get it right and seeing how the Varg is in the races it is allowed in should be a good thing for everybody.
Yup, it answers them all, and very well I might add. It's got to be good to have you in the role you're in, you certainly seem balanced and insightful, so thanks for committing to the position.
I appreciate the support. I don't want people to think the AMA is anti-Electric. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is being discussed and evaluated on a daily basis here, in fact we have a meeting regarding E bikes this morning. Remember what happened with the four strokes, my predecessors got that one wrong. Are we being cautious, absolutely. Think how bad it would be if we just opened the flood gates and it turned out it was the wrong thing to do. What do we tell all of the people who bought electrics. Just like the 250 in the 125 class debacle it would be too late at that point. Its hard to put the genie back in the bottle.
Very well said. It must be hard to try to look beyond the crazy fog of technological upheaval to what should be. I'd guess this is especially true regarding electric bikes, in part due to their almost unlimited potential, and in part due to their polarizing nature. One quick scroll through any of the Varg threads will tell you that there's a whole lot of passion both for and against. But for the first time, I feel like it's just a matter of waiting until whatever should happen does happen, and that's largely because of what I've seen you write here.
Are there any auxiliary outputs on the Varg ECU to plug in a sound source, or lights, or USB charge port, etc?
Great answers to a question I don’t understand… noise? Why is less bad? Or a danger worth legislating against?
To me this reeks of ‘we need to find a reasoning that doesn’t implicate honda et al who told us NO FUCKING WAY CAN STARK RACE’
Literally the only worry with less sound is that passes might be more unexpected, but if you are so worried about people making passes why not ‘force’ everyone to have mirrors?
‘Forcing someone’ to race against a bike they can’t hear while not questioning Fiolek shows that the actually hearing sound is not a safety issue… or else fiolek would have been banned?? Or are you arguing that she put herself and those around here at an elevated risk? Do you FORCE the other email racers to race against someone who couldn’t hear them behind her? Did you force the other WMX riders to ride in an ‘unsafe’ environment due them not being heard on the track?
It is so transparently clear that the industry pushed AMA to drag their heels and brainstorm excuses.
Replies like this are the reason no one in my position with the AMA has ever come on here.
I can’t speak to the pro side, because it’s not my world. I can tell you I have had zero pushback from any of the OEMs regarding whether E bikes should race against gas bikes.
as far as Honda calling the shots, must I once again remind you of the Honda 150 which didn’t get to go where Honda wanted it to go.
have a conversation with any of the providers who raced against the Varg in Europe, and you will understand.
Maybe I’ll just sit this one out and let the rest of you argue amongst yourselves
This isn't a gotcha question.
What happened in between this guy winning an amateur arenacross championship on an Alta and now, with electrics being banned from all AMA competition except sprint enduros and the E5 class?
https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/electric-bikes/first-full-sized-electric…
You boys serious? 450’s against 250’s? 250’s against 125’s? That competitive balance?
And it is still that way in AMA Pro.......jeez.
If it was just the sound parts of the reasoning, I would agree that it sounds like there is more to the story than they are saying. And maybe there is more going.
But if they truly are trying to figure out what to set the power levels at for each class,I think that may be worth the extra time it takes. I love dirtbikes of all kinds. I think that the Varg and future electric MX bikes will do some amazing things and I'm all in on electric MX bikes, EMTB and I have looked into convetring my SXS to electric. But I would like to see limits on power set that could make it safer . And perhaps avoid a giant leap up in power for the average guys. Of course people will still be able to set their power levels to whatever they want when not racing. But they are more likely to practice in the power range they are going to race in.
I feel like we should give Old Slow Guy the benefit of the doubt , and take him at his word. And be happy that he has been willing to come on here and comment on a very polarizing subject. While he may not be giving us the answers we want to hear, being able to ask the questions' and get an answer at all is a positive. And I think that being respectful while communicating with him will give you the best shot at being listened to and getting questions answered. As long as he is also being respectful .
He has said that is something they are trying to avoid repeating with electric. And I agree that its hard to put the genie back in the bottle after its out.
Lets say they revisited the rule on 4 stroke displacement. And made it so it was say 185cc and 330CC instead of the 250 and 450's we have now. All of a sudden everybody HAS to buy a new bike because their bikes no longer are legal, or they have to race in open classes only. Maybe you could get a big bore kit on a 250F or sleeve either bike down. But since its already out there, it would be a very unpopular rule that would cost racers tons of money. Sure serious guys might get a couple bikes a year. So those guys would be less impacted. But a lot of local racers will buy a new bike every 2 years, or whenever they update a chassis.
I realize that electric is very different in that You would only need to download a software update to change the power . But the an other side of the argument is that if You give electric too big of an advantage You kill off the gas bikes. Like how 4 strokes are the popular bike for racers now and 2 strokes are sold in much lower numbers.
Maybe that is just an excuse , maybe we will find out in a few years. But don't you feel like it is a valid reason that they do not want to make a mistake like that again?
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