Stark Varg LL’s Vet Classes

endurox wrote:

harley and the ama controlled the flat track, half mile, mile rules and destroyed the sport for decades. Then Indian came along and built a bike...

harley and the ama controlled the flat track, half mile, mile rules and destroyed the sport for decades. Then Indian came along and built a bike around the rules. Smoked harley so bad that the ama  made Indian slow their bikes down so the harleys didn't  get lapped. the ama is just a road block unless you work for harley, ktm or honda.

Last2Stroke wrote:

Indian is not an AMA Business member, they don't get a say in AMA affairs!

Indian is not an AMA Business member, they don't get a say in AMA affairs!

The real Sasquatch wrote:

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that...

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that all of the current brands are working on one. So it would not only be a rule to let Stark race. It would be a set of rules that other other manufacturers could have in mind while they develop their EMX bikes. 

They could let Stark be a guinea pig and allow they to race, and share the data from the races to see what settings would make it similar to the 250 and 450 class bikes.Let them experiment with different levels of power and battery sizes, etc. And use Starks money and riders to help make rules that make sense. And maybe avoid another 2 stroke to 4 stroke like advantage. Maybe they make Stark sign a rider that has not finished above a certain position, or not award points that count towards a title, but would still count for payout and a national number. I'm sure they could work something out if both parties wanted to.  Unless they already have worked out a set of rules for when Honda and Kawasaki bring out their EMX bikes. But why not do what some other federations are doing with letting the Varg race with some restrictions. 

 

Last2Stroke wrote:

Indian is not an AMA Business member, they don't get a say in AMA affairs!

Indian is not an AMA Business member, they don't get a say in AMA affairs!

Dave v3.0 wrote:

You might want to rethink that.  Polaris acquired Indian in 2011.  They are a full AMA Business Member. Still doesn't mean they have Harley level influence...

You might want to rethink that.  Polaris acquired Indian in 2011.  They are a full AMA Business Member.

Still doesn't mean they have Harley level influence though...

The real Sasquatch wrote:

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that...

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that all of the current brands are working on one. So it would not only be a rule to let Stark race. It would be a set of rules that other other manufacturers could have in mind while they develop their EMX bikes. 

They could let Stark be a guinea pig and allow they to race, and share the data from the races to see what settings would make it similar to the 250 and 450 class bikes.Let them experiment with different levels of power and battery sizes, etc. And use Starks money and riders to help make rules that make sense. And maybe avoid another 2 stroke to 4 stroke like advantage. Maybe they make Stark sign a rider that has not finished above a certain position, or not award points that count towards a title, but would still count for payout and a national number. I'm sure they could work something out if both parties wanted to.  Unless they already have worked out a set of rules for when Honda and Kawasaki bring out their EMX bikes. But why not do what some other federations are doing with letting the Varg race with some restrictions. 

 

lostboy819 wrote:

Davy Coombs is just waiting for Honda to tell him what to do about the Electric bikes so I doubt Stark will be able to race...

Davy Coombs is just waiting for Honda to tell him what to do about the Electric bikes so I doubt Stark will be able to race until Honda has theirs built. 

JB 19 wrote:

Are you going to be trying to qualify for LL's this year?  

The real Sasquatch wrote:

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that...

Kawasaki has said they will be 100% electric by a certain date.  Honda has an electric MX bike they are working on. And I imagine that all of the current brands are working on one. So it would not only be a rule to let Stark race. It would be a set of rules that other other manufacturers could have in mind while they develop their EMX bikes. 

They could let Stark be a guinea pig and allow they to race, and share the data from the races to see what settings would make it similar to the 250 and 450 class bikes.Let them experiment with different levels of power and battery sizes, etc. And use Starks money and riders to help make rules that make sense. And maybe avoid another 2 stroke to 4 stroke like advantage. Maybe they make Stark sign a rider that has not finished above a certain position, or not award points that count towards a title, but would still count for payout and a national number. I'm sure they could work something out if both parties wanted to.  Unless they already have worked out a set of rules for when Honda and Kawasaki bring out their EMX bikes. But why not do what some other federations are doing with letting the Varg race with some restrictions. 

 

lostboy819 wrote:

Davy Coombs is just waiting for Honda to tell him what to do about the Electric bikes so I doubt Stark will be able to race...

Davy Coombs is just waiting for Honda to tell him what to do about the Electric bikes so I doubt Stark will be able to race until Honda has theirs built. 

Titan1 wrote:

How did Hondas four stroke 150 affect the rules at LL’s?  Did they change them so it could race 85’s?

Titan1 wrote:

How did Hondas four stroke 150 affect the rules at LL’s?  Did they change them so it could race 85’s?

Titan1 wrote:

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a...

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

Titan1 wrote:

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a...

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

Titan1 wrote:

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a...

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

djr wrote:

Exactly PLUS, with Triumph & Ducati spending millions developing new ICE powered bikes, I would have expected both Triumph & Ducati have done some due diligence...

Exactly

PLUS, with Triumph & Ducati spending millions developing new ICE powered bikes, I would have expected both Triumph & Ducati have done some due diligence before spending that money, so that they don't have bikes that are obsolete overnight -

I would have thought they would have asked the FIM, AMA etc. -

" in the near future are you going to allow unrestricted electric bikes to race ? or will there be rules to equalise performance ?"

I would have thought both manufacturers asked those questions and got the answers they wanted before going ahead with new bikes.

 

Beagle wrote:

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago. When Ducati and Triumph started...

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago.

When Ducati and Triumph started their project, no one knew about the Stark Varg project and no electric full size dirtbike had been available since the end of Alta in 2018.

Beagle wrote:

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago. When Ducati and Triumph started...

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago.

When Ducati and Triumph started their project, no one knew about the Stark Varg project and no electric full size dirtbike had been available since the end of Alta in 2018.

Beagle wrote:

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago. When Ducati and Triumph started...

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago.

When Ducati and Triumph started their project, no one knew about the Stark Varg project and no electric full size dirtbike had been available since the end of Alta in 2018.

djr wrote:

Really ? A couple of years ago no one would have seen what was happening with electric cars etc., and not thought the same could happen...

Really ?

A couple of years ago no one would have seen what was happening with electric cars etc., and not thought the same could happen with bikes ?

 

Beagle wrote:

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago. When Ducati and Triumph started...

I do not think anybody would have been remotely concerned with the eventual performance of electric dirtbikes a couple years ago.

When Ducati and Triumph started their project, no one knew about the Stark Varg project and no electric full size dirtbike had been available since the end of Alta in 2018.

djr wrote:

Really ? A couple of years ago no one would have seen what was happening with electric cars etc., and not thought the same could happen...

Really ?

A couple of years ago no one would have seen what was happening with electric cars etc., and not thought the same could happen with bikes ?

 

Beagle wrote:

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric...

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric dirt bike available at that time, sorry I forgot it). I don't think they foresaw that an unknown company would soon release another electric dirtbike with 3 times more power for 7 more kilos.

It appears to me that the Stark Varg podiums are the first time that an EV is truly competitive against ICE at pro national championship level (be it on two wheels or twice too many). And on a vehicle available to anyone for barely more money than comparable ICE. Ok, except that one Endurocross Alta podium in 2018 immediately followed up by the company unfortunate demise. Honestly if you feel we've been here before I'll be glad to know more about it.

Titan1 wrote:

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their...

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their own production lines and what their competition might be doing) for their products?

No part of me thinks they went full steam ahead on the R&D of an ICE bike with their heads completely in the sand about the future of ICE engines, and possible-better-replacements.   They either believe that electric isn't the long term solution for dirt bikes (that it will be something else entirely), or that the actual full acceptance of electric dirt bikes is so far down the road, that it was worth it to develop an ICE bike rather than an electric one (they can get their ROI on the ICE bike, and develop an electric one before electric tech and consumer sentiment make e-bikes widely accepted and viable).  And they may be right, or wrong about that...but I'd bet on them before I'd bet on "know nothing" (relative to them) Stark Varg owners/fans... 

Titan1 wrote:

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their...

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their own production lines and what their competition might be doing) for their products?

No part of me thinks they went full steam ahead on the R&D of an ICE bike with their heads completely in the sand about the future of ICE engines, and possible-better-replacements.   They either believe that electric isn't the long term solution for dirt bikes (that it will be something else entirely), or that the actual full acceptance of electric dirt bikes is so far down the road, that it was worth it to develop an ICE bike rather than an electric one (they can get their ROI on the ICE bike, and develop an electric one before electric tech and consumer sentiment make e-bikes widely accepted and viable).  And they may be right, or wrong about that...but I'd bet on them before I'd bet on "know nothing" (relative to them) Stark Varg owners/fans... 

MxAddic wrote:

djr wrote:

Really ? A couple of years ago no one would have seen what was happening with electric cars etc., and not thought the same could happen...

Really ?

A couple of years ago no one would have seen what was happening with electric cars etc., and not thought the same could happen with bikes ?

 

Beagle wrote:

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric...

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric dirt bike available at that time, sorry I forgot it). I don't think they foresaw that an unknown company would soon release another electric dirtbike with 3 times more power for 7 more kilos.

It appears to me that the Stark Varg podiums are the first time that an EV is truly competitive against ICE at pro national championship level (be it on two wheels or twice too many). And on a vehicle available to anyone for barely more money than comparable ICE. Ok, except that one Endurocross Alta podium in 2018 immediately followed up by the company unfortunate demise. Honestly if you feel we've been here before I'll be glad to know more about it.

Titan1 wrote:

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their...

You don't think companies like Ducati and Triumph (not to mention the Japanese manufacturers) have their finger on the pulse of future technological steps (for their own production lines and what their competition might be doing) for their products?

No part of me thinks they went full steam ahead on the R&D of an ICE bike with their heads completely in the sand about the future of ICE engines, and possible-better-replacements.   They either believe that electric isn't the long term solution for dirt bikes (that it will be something else entirely), or that the actual full acceptance of electric dirt bikes is so far down the road, that it was worth it to develop an ICE bike rather than an electric one (they can get their ROI on the ICE bike, and develop an electric one before electric tech and consumer sentiment make e-bikes widely accepted and viable).  And they may be right, or wrong about that...but I'd bet on them before I'd bet on "know nothing" (relative to them) Stark Varg owners/fans... 

Beagle wrote:

Yeah that's exactly how I imagine Honda guys seeing Stark releasing a 80 hp electric dirt bike while they have been working on their CR-E prototype...

Yeah that's exactly how I imagine Honda guys seeing Stark releasing a 80 hp electric dirt bike while they have been working on their CR-E prototype for well over 6 years 

7eleven wrote:

Last2Stroke wrote:

7eleven wrote:

Thank you for posting official docs/rules. This should adjust a few perspectives. 

Last2Stroke wrote:

LOL, some people will never change their minds!

Titan1 wrote:

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a...

How many bikes has stark actually sold?  A few thousand, total?   KTM sells like 500k per year….why would sanctioning bodies start making rules for a bike that may or may not even be around in 5 years?  Stark is far more likely to follow the path of Alta than KTM….I see no issue with FIM, AMA, MX Sports waiting to see what happens with the bike before they start moving classes around for what is, at this point, a novelty.  

MxAddic wrote:

To retail customers not even close. I would be surprised if there are more than 500. Most of the first thousand went to influencers and Demo...

To retail customers not even close. I would be surprised if there are more than 500. Most of the first thousand went to influencers and Demo bikes. 

Beagle wrote:

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric...

Well yes I doubt Ducati and Triumph production teams have lost any sleep thinking about KTM freeride 24 hp (that was the only full size electric dirt bike available at that time, sorry I forgot it). I don't think they foresaw that an unknown company would soon release another electric dirtbike with 3 times more power for 7 more kilos.

It appears to me that the Stark Varg podiums are the first time that an EV is truly competitive against ICE at pro national championship level (be it on two wheels or twice too many). And on a vehicle available to anyone for barely more money than comparable ICE. Ok, except that one Endurocross Alta podium in 2018 immediately followed up by the company unfortunate demise. Honestly if you feel we've been here before I'll be glad to know more about it.

soggy wrote:

lol. You have absolutely no proof of this. Just cause you saw some posted on IG doesn’t mean anything.