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I pretty much read all 10 pages and doubt I learned much!
Woooooof geez.
If you go click the post linked above there are more details, TLDR "engine" maintenance cost plus "fuel", including battery replacement after 500 cycles, works out at $20/h run time.
I think its around 1500 cycles, which is probably around 100-150,000 km's.
What's equivalent engine related, gas, oil, servicing, rebuild, air filter, exhaust packing/replacement etc etc etc cost if the small stuff is done at home and the big stuff is done at a service centre for say yz450f to run 150,000km of pure motocross riding? I have no idea would love to know.
According to google minimum is a new piston every 100hrs, so that's 15 pistons.
https://www.btosports.com/dirt-bike-gear/wiseco-racer-elite-4-stroke-cr-series-piston-kit
$351 for just a piston (not sure is USD or AUD) multiplied by 15 is $5265 in just pistons in that same time.... so damn, add everything else and a few bottom ends and engine/gas running costs it feels like to travel150,000km on a 450 on a motocross track would have to be at least $15-20k compared to $7k Stark running the same distance - disregarding potential full engine failures, clutch failures, gearbox etc etc etc...
It really puts in perspective how much more cost efficient it truly is...
The Shop
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
That’s what I paid for my foutfiddy 6 years ago. All it has ever seen is tires, brakes, C&S and oil changes. How many years will these batteries last?
Sometimes the hypothetical and RW are at odds.
" it really puts in perspective how much more cost efficient it truly is"
If you are talking about a 2 stroke compared to a Varg, then yes you're right
PLUS , with a 2 stroke, there is no need to purchase a generator if you would like to do more than 1 race at an event
When doing these cost comparisons between ICE & E bikes , the price of a generator & it's maintenance + fuel needs to be factored in
Looks like Stark has some competition. Slow and steady wins the long game.
That Talaria Dragon can challenge a SurRon, not a Stark.
The generator cost can be similar to putting an aftermarket pipe on a bike. Something You will never have to do on an electric. Of course you can find examples of super expensive generators and cheap pipes. But Harbor Freight's inverter style are relatively inexpensive , and have a similar sound output to the more expensive Honda's and Yamaha's. The $1100 5KW version should be able to charge at the faster rate. They often have sales so You can get them cheaper. Sometimes they will have a 20-25% off sale on them. A full system, with Ti header is right around the same price.
And right now, what other dirt bikes out there can be made so a total beginner can safely ride it, and in less than 10 seconds it can be changed to be able to be ridden at Pro level speeds. and then back. How much would it cost for You to do that to a 450, or KLX110? And how would You do it?
38HP wanna bet? What is the HP of a YZ125? What's the chances of a Varg owner getting beat by one of those?
Never the less I expect the showroom war to be enlightening.
Why do you care about the Stark failing so much?
Did turtle neck bang your wife?
I think the Stark Varg is great, but I do think generators is the wrong way to go.
Either the Vargs should be charged from your EV as V2L or from power outlets at the track... I don't think Teslas do V2L today, few do, the Ford and Chevy pickup, KIA cars and some more...
So question is, maybe it's a bit too early yet for 100 Vargs at the same track? Nevertheless, it seems to be a fantastic bike and is the future.
I'd say close to zero.
I am just here to learn more about E-bikes and grow the sport bro.
This Talaria Dragon, released next year, is 38 hp, 100 kg, 5.4 kWh. That will be a step from Sur Ron Storm bee (30 hp, 118 kg, 5.7 kWh) but not yet in the same league than the Varg (80 hp, 118 kg, 6.5 kWh).
Competition is good for us customers, Chinese ebikes are getting there, in fact I would not be surprised if these brands (or other newcomers like Flux and their 85 hp, 7 kWh swappable battery) release the first real competition for the Varg before established OEMs.
Wether it's in 2, 3 or 5 years is anyone's guess.
Honda should obviously be the first among OEMs to release an E-bike but their plans for the CR-E are anything but clear. Give us some damned specs Honda
It looks like its still Downhill MTB suspension and in between a real dirtbike and MTB.
But that's another exciting thing about electric is the chassis design can be played with more. Will a lighter weight , lower HP bike be the way of the future, or HP monsters that are more like current MX bikes now? Will the 250 class be made up of bikes like that , and the 450 class be bikes like the Varg?
Downhill MTB's have come a long way. The drops and jumps they do are right there with the size stuff on MX tracks. Perhaps the instant torque and lower overall HP, along with lighter weight will end up being really good. The biggest downside I see is softer surfaces. With the tires being thinner, they will just dig in .
I would tend to agree that this is more of a Sur-ron competitor than Varg fighter. But I do not think this is the craziest thing You have said.
For the Varg in its current state and most tracks the way they are now. Generators are a good way of getting bikes out there and seeing how they really work for people in the real world. I personally see many reasons they should be amazing. But people ride for many different reasons so who knows .
It would be great to not have generators at the track. Around here and all of the national races I've gone to, even SX races. The pits are already full of generators. I am guessing that the people with the RV's and generators , more $$ will be more of the early Varg owners. So I really do not see some giant increase in generators. With the size of the bigger RV's and trailers, Solar panels on a sunny day could charge a single bike at a time.
So do I now have to listen to your genset blowing in my ear all night, I get to listen to it all day as well?
Progress! Don't stand in the way.
BTW I hate dealing with these things at the races. Yes, I am anti-generator.
Maybe I am trying to save the planet? We already know I am against child slavery.
Pit Row
Or battery bank style power packs for charging similar to the Kress tools system. Its a bigger bank of batteries that fast charges the tool in 8 minutes. And they say it can keep the tool charged for an entire work day.I think that VP or one of the race gas brands should work on something for Emx bikes.I just think the cost would be up there. Maybe they could lease it so the payments would feel more like buying gas ,and less like buying a second bike. But a full charge in 8 minutes , if it could do that 2 or 3 times, that would be enough for most people that will ride MX style stuff. https://www.kress.com/en-us/
I've had a generator since 2003 that I ran at every race I took my 5th wheel to. The first one I had was loud, and I used it 1 weekend before getting a Honda. The first one I had burt in a garage fire. But I've had the current one since 2004. It has run for multiple weeks at a time when I lost power at my house. I got a Honda Eu3000 and it can run and it makes less sound than my AC fan. My electric pressure washer makes more noise than either of my Honda's.
Even at races out in the middle of noplace, in the middle of the night, its not enough noise that a fan wouldn't drown out the sound even if parked on top of it. At local races I would shut it off around 10 or 11 . But at national's everybody ran them the entire time. I have not brought anybody to a National in a while though, so maybe its not like that anymore. Local races the pits seem to be full of generators. So much so that I'm going to offer graphic kits for some models.
I'm just here to say that my 5 hour ride Sunday was uninterrupted by gas station stops or charging stations....
...and the sound of that Scorpion exhaust singing the Triumph Triple tune. Pure heaven .
The Talaria Dragon is meant to compete with the Sur Ron Ultra Bee, which is kind of in its own category. Not quite full-size. Call it a mid-size maybe. Wheel base is around the same as the KTM Freeride E.
If the Dragon comes spec'ed as it was at EICMA, it will be far more rip ready stock than the Ultra Bee. 88v vs 72v and will also come stock with 21/18 wheelset as opposed to the Ultra's weirdo 19/19 stock combo that everyone changes anyways.
I think it's pretty cool how eMotos have created a few new categories of sizes. Another one coming down the line is Dust Moto, but that's a couple years out from production, most likely.
Put these bikes in the hands of a fast Mini or Super Mini, and you have a serious race machine.
Current full-size eMotos that you can buy:
Stark Future Varg:
Arctic Leopard EXC 880
In Development:
CFMOTO
Kove E-MX (already listed on the Kove website)
(obviously) Honda CR Electric Proto
Add in the conversion kits available from Electro & Co., Lizcat, ELMOFO, and Might E and there is no shortage of electric moto options out there right now and in the very near future.
When it comes to AMA and FIM racing, that's a whole different story. Maybe it's time to start a separate racing organization if the established OEMs don't want to play nice.
You forgot the Flux.
https://www.vitalmx.com/forums/moto-related/flux-performance-announces-…
Damn! You're right. Yet another one in the works.
Flux Primo
Also in final stages of development the EMX XF30 based on YZF chassis (40 hp, 4.5 kWh, 115 kg, 14 500€).
https://www.emx-powertrain.com/
It looks like a very sweet bike, unfortunately the Varg made life much harder for this project.
The Flux Primo looks very interesting but I've never seen its weight mentioned anywhere.
I'm so childish with this comment... but why does e-dirt bike riders wear sneakers but when they jump on a 4-2-stroke they need proper riding gear, is e-moto more safe? Not totally sure, but sounds a guy is complaining about the foot hurt after a jump in the video.
https://youtu.be/3BTwfPsbA00?feature=shared
Send somehow a more Sur-rony signal over the Varg than I would like to see.. .but I'm just old
Click the link I posted. There's an Instagram clip that shows the weight of the Flux.
That’s professional mountain bike rider Max Fredrickson. He even says in the beginning of that video that him and his buddy are not moto riders. They’re joined by a “professional rider” (their words not mine) who isn’t a professional at all. He is a supermoto guy who has a decent social media following and does wheelies on public roads…in sneakers 😂
I can almost guarantee the mountain bike riders in that video don’t even own moto gear. They’re wearing MTB full face helmets which aren’t rated for crashes at the speeds a moto bike can hit.
Usually, if they’re on ICE bikes they’re riding on a track where gear is required.
Woah, didn’t know arctic leopard was making a full sized. Had a chance to ride their e-trials bike (just up the street a few times) and it was quick. There was a separate brake lever on the left side handlebar that is specifically for regen braking. Looked a bit weird staring down at two levers but cool idea. They also give you the option of a steel or aluminum frame at different price points.
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