Buell MX450f revealed.......a little

stillwelding
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stillwelding 1/20/2010 11:42pm
1/20/2010 11:42pm
stillwelding wrote:
In the auction of all Buell assets you can see a few boxes of parts for the MX bike. The code name was "Griffin" with the...
In the auction of all Buell assets you can see a few boxes of parts for the MX bike. The code name was "Griffin" with the use of a Can-Am/Bombardier DS450 engine. Looks like some Ohlins shocks, YZ muffler, and Cycra plastics too. All auction details at

http://www.liquidassetpartners.com/currentliquidations/liquidation341.html







Found this link with these images
http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/newsandupdates/122_0905_buell_motocrosser_off_road_concept/index.html





DrSweden
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DrSweden 1/21/2010 1:59am
1/21/2010 1:59am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:13pm
stillwelding wrote:
In the auction of all Buell assets you can see a few boxes of parts for the MX bike. The code name was "Griffin" with the...
In the auction of all Buell assets you can see a few boxes of parts for the MX bike. The code name was "Griffin" with the use of a Can-Am/Bombardier DS450 engine. Looks like some Ohlins shocks, YZ muffler, and Cycra plastics too. All auction details at

http://www.liquidassetpartners.com/currentliquidations/liquidation341.html







Of course it's a subjective thing, but that design makes me tic.

But it does look a bit heavy? I mean there's a lot/unnessesary metal in that frame desing?
Muezh
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Muezh 1/21/2010 3:01am
1/21/2010 3:01am
wow.. I always wondered what happened and how far it went.
this does need to be in print... DC????
like c3011... best I've read in a long long time.. great thread.
Ozzy and Freeh.. you guys are great. you know how many people are dying for an mx bike made in the good ol' USA.. would have been cool.
tuz371
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tuz371 1/21/2010 5:34am
1/21/2010 5:34am
VERY Interesting posts. Agree this is the best thread in a while.

So what is up with the split seat? There is a CRF and RMZ split seat visible in the auction photos.

The Shop

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ehr400
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ehr400 1/21/2010 5:41am
1/21/2010 5:41am
I really like this thread alot! I had a interview with Cannondale for a Weld Engineer position back in 2000 to work with the automation side of welding and production of the frames and what not. I was real pumped about it at first but when I read the tests for the bike and saw one in person I thought it may be doomed. I went anyways and the pay package wasn't on par with what I was offered in other places so I turned it down. Good thing I did!

I would have loved to see the C-dale and Buehl succeed . I think it would have brought a breath of fresh air to the market.
brink
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brink 1/21/2010 6:49am
1/21/2010 6:49am
When are we gonna get some info on the split seat?????????? Huh
freeh
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freeh 1/21/2010 7:32am
1/21/2010 7:32am
Here is the split seat story. For those of you not familiar with Buell, one of their trademarks is to have the fuel stored in the frame. It is part of the mass centralization concept that they developed into the street bike line-up. The dirt bike was to have this concept also. The frame would hold the fuel much lower than the typical plastic gas tank could, but there were trade-offs to accomplish this idea. For example, where and how do put the fuel into the motorcycle. As can be seen from the patent application drawings earlier in this thread, the air box was going to be where the gas tank normally sits, but due to the frame design the place for the fuel input had to be where the airbox nornally is on current dirtbikes. The cap ended up being directly under your balls, literally. So how do you access the gas cap? You have to remove the seat. That, in my mind at least, was unacceptable. Bear in mind, I had no real decision making power in the program, but because I was one of two guys involved that actually raced dirtbikes, they would occasionally listen to me. After some discussions about how to put fuel into the bike, the split seat concept was suggested. That way you would not have to remove the entire seat, just the front half to put the fuel in. This was still way f'ing stupid, but it was the best idea we had at the time. We ended up re-routing the fuel inlet to the front of the frame, so the cap would be in the same location as every other bike. If I remember right, Ozzy's test rider actually rode a bike, not the Buell, with a split seat and said something to the affect of, "get that f'ing thing off of there before I hurt myself."
Adam43
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Adam43 1/21/2010 7:50am
1/21/2010 7:50am
Awesome stuff. The frame-as-gas-tank is a neat idea.

What was your weight target for the bike? How did your proto compare to other 450s at the time? Did the thing make competitive power?

Great, great thread.
MXTR
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MXTR 1/21/2010 8:15am
1/21/2010 8:15am
freeh wrote:
Here is the split seat story. For those of you not familiar with Buell, one of their trademarks is to have the fuel stored in the...
Here is the split seat story. For those of you not familiar with Buell, one of their trademarks is to have the fuel stored in the frame. It is part of the mass centralization concept that they developed into the street bike line-up. The dirt bike was to have this concept also. The frame would hold the fuel much lower than the typical plastic gas tank could, but there were trade-offs to accomplish this idea. For example, where and how do put the fuel into the motorcycle. As can be seen from the patent application drawings earlier in this thread, the air box was going to be where the gas tank normally sits, but due to the frame design the place for the fuel input had to be where the airbox nornally is on current dirtbikes. The cap ended up being directly under your balls, literally. So how do you access the gas cap? You have to remove the seat. That, in my mind at least, was unacceptable. Bear in mind, I had no real decision making power in the program, but because I was one of two guys involved that actually raced dirtbikes, they would occasionally listen to me. After some discussions about how to put fuel into the bike, the split seat concept was suggested. That way you would not have to remove the entire seat, just the front half to put the fuel in. This was still way f'ing stupid, but it was the best idea we had at the time. We ended up re-routing the fuel inlet to the front of the frame, so the cap would be in the same location as every other bike. If I remember right, Ozzy's test rider actually rode a bike, not the Buell, with a split seat and said something to the affect of, "get that f'ing thing off of there before I hurt myself."
That's pretty funny stuff!

But I can see weird stuff like that happening in the early prototype process. Sometimes strange ideas get thrown around, and the only way to prove or disprove the idea is to make a prototype and test it.

It reminds me of my dealings with some pretty smart engineers in the past. These guys were super smart in theory, but they had no mechanical common-sense. The fabricators and mechanics would listen to their idea and tell them it wouldn't work, but they had to build the prototype anyway. Soon after we would test it with poor results, and the engineers would go back to the drawing board.

That's what makes the whole process so rewarding. You get to learn a ton, through mistakes and successes along the way. I'm so bummed that Ozzy and Freeh couldn't see the whole process through.
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freeh 1/21/2010 9:14am
1/21/2010 9:14am
stillwelding wrote:
In the auction of all Buell assets you can see a few boxes of parts for the MX bike. The code name was "Griffin" with the...
In the auction of all Buell assets you can see a few boxes of parts for the MX bike. The code name was "Griffin" with the use of a Can-Am/Bombardier DS450 engine. Looks like some Ohlins shocks, YZ muffler, and Cycra plastics too. All auction details at

http://www.liquidassetpartners.com/currentliquidations/liquidation341.html







Not sure where this design came from, but it is not from Buell. It is not too far off though. The swingarm did not look like that. Our swingarm was a copy of the KTM, including not using a linkage. Another interesting thing is that there was no engine cradle part of the frame, similar to the Aprilia off-road bike. I was not sure how that would go over. One of the last things I was working on was a skid plate that takes the place of the lower enginer cradle/frame area.
1
Ozzy
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Ozzy 1/21/2010 9:36am
1/21/2010 9:36am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 8:13pm
Quote..."MXTR"... :
I'm so bummed that Ozzy and Freeh couldn't see the whole process through.

ME TOOO!
I will say this, I've said over the yrs. in many
a situation, "that's a POS, etc..." shoot we all have
at 1 time or another, admit it!
At Buell, I realized that even at the Factory level
which I've been involved in many times in my career,
that we're all "end users" of sorts.
Heck, even the great Roger D. is 1 too........
At Buell, we had a blank page!
At Buell, the light was GREEN, go go go..............
At Buell, I realized it's people!
Sure, outside of all the forward & crazy ideas, "square wheels " I called it all,
these engineers & designers had taught me a new terminology.
There was the "Design Path", the "POC, proof of concept", & there were more
I'd learn quickly as well.
For every idea, & there were many, like that damn seat, I had to be respectful,
yet find a way to kill it before it got a foot hold, but again, like "MXTR" pointed out
it all had to be seen, proven, etc. before it could be exhausted.
Our namesake, was bold!
From the top to the bottom, BOLD!
My "square wheels" thoughts fitted him to a tee, & yet I had total respect for him & them
all as I was sitting in his chair.
In his building.........
Cashing my paycheck from him........
In other words, sure at times, actually many times, I was at my edge.
For me, failure, or the Cannondale-road wasn't an option.
Racing was my goal.
Being decent & accepted was mine.
Frustration was always part of my day, cause I know this stuff,
But still I had respect for it & certainly all involved, "square wheels" or not!
You see, the whole damn deal was as I said earlier, a "POC, proof of concept".
Sure call it a "POS" if you will, that's easy.
But being there wasn't being in the crowd, we had the chance to make history.
That's what drove me & the others.
So ALL, the next time you say that movie sucked, or how dumb the OEM's are,
think about the people. People just like you & I, people with ideas, people drawing
such, creating & building such etc., & then think to yourself, what have I done lately
that matters, & maybe you'll realize the respect that goes with it all for even trying!
Hell, even most critics haven't been & done...........
Hence my earlier 4 points, especially the last.
So, in closing, enjoy your ride, or whatever.........
Someone put their heart & soul into it like it or not......!
Dave O.Wink
























1
freeh
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freeh 1/21/2010 9:46am
1/21/2010 9:46am
720furrybunny wrote:
Here's my Buell story. About 3 yrs ago after learning about the MX project online, I cold called Buell's HR dept. I didn't get an answer...
Here's my Buell story. About 3 yrs ago after learning about the MX project online, I cold called Buell's HR dept. I didn't get an answer but, I left a message regarding my interest in an engineering position. At that time, I had a little after market product I developed which was featured in MXA a few times (REIL Eng. Airbox EZ for CRF 450). Anyways, to my surprize, they called me back and arranged to fly me out from Utah for an interview. Being that this was my dream shot, I took the time to model up some things, perform some FE analyses, and bring them to the interview. I was interviewed by a panel of 4-5 and felt pretty good. As with most of you, I've been into dirt bikes for a good part of my life, so I knew the subject matter inside and out. In fact, all people are geeks in one way or another, I geek out over MX bikes. So, overall the interview seemed to go well, if there were any negatives, I'd say that I didn't get a good body language vibe from the person heading up the interview. Everybody was hush hush about the bike and although I pressed, they wouldn't show me anything. So, I returned back home and two weeks pass and I hear nothing. I finally contact HR at Buell and they give me some bull shit reason I didn't get hired was that I didn't have Think 3 experience. This is a surfacing package used by industrial designers. It didn't ever come up in the interview. I said screw it. As it turns out I'm lucky I didn't get hired due to the circumstances but, I'd love to be a part of something else if it ever comes up. Ozzy/Freeh, were you guys part of the interview? I guess I'm still a little pissed with the B.S. reason the HR guys gave me. I know you may have interviewed several but, you'd remember me since I have a fairly uncommon name (Rocco). I think during the course of the interview, I asked those present if they rode MX and none did. This didn't impress me as it gave me the impression that it could be a misdirected attempt by road racing buffs. Anyways, it would be nice to see an American company get some skin in this game. One last thing. I almost feel like a jinx since Cannondale went under shortly after I interviewed with them. Either that or they screwed up by not hiring me too!
Cool story. I was not involved in any interviews. Too bad they did not bring you on board. We could have used a few more guys that were true fans of the sport.

The Think3 thing is total bullshit. Nobody knows that stuff before they come there. I didn't. I wonder what the timing was of your interview versus when the project was cancelled. You are way better off for not packing up your life and moving to Wisconsin. Trust me.
720furrybunny 1/21/2010 9:55am
1/21/2010 9:55am
Freeh,
Yeah, moving from this paradise called Utah to the frozen tundra and high taxes of WI would have been a tough decision but, this would have been the dream shot. To Ozzy's comment, your ave person just doesn't know what goes into the design of a product. Your designs are like your children! It's like when you go to a design review, you feel like your showing off your newborn; it's tough when everyone says its ugly! BTW, my interview was in April I believe. I remember rolling into town and seeing all the snow. I'd already been riding for a few in UT and had a race coming up. I remember thinking "this sucks" when I saw that!
kwebster447
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kwebster447 1/21/2010 11:39am
1/21/2010 11:39am
u reading this DC? Donn? Great stuff.
c3011
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c3011 1/21/2010 1:29pm
1/21/2010 1:29pm
kwebster447 wrote:
u reading this DC? Donn? Great stuff.
I'm betting DC has seen this thread going on. I've been waiting to hear some of what Ozzy had to say on this matter since Buell ended the project, but I've tried to be respectful when he said he couldn't go into details due to legal things for proprietary reasons, been there myself. Its also great to hear Freeh's story's as well. Thanks guys!
rallendude
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rallendude 1/21/2010 2:32pm
1/21/2010 2:32pm
It's interesting hearing about the bumps and bruises on the road to ......... well, disaster. But, I want to hear about the bike.

Screw DC, Donn, and the rest. GuyB, get this guy on the phone. Go see him with your camera and voice recorder. I want a podium speak with these guys.

I want to know what worked and what didn't. About testing days. I'll take some bickering about why they wouldn't let certain concepts in or how one guy couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag. Where's the story?

Get to this guy......Guy.......................
ebers
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ebers 1/21/2010 4:38pm
1/21/2010 4:38pm
Ozzy wrote:
Quote..."MXTR"... : I'm so bummed that Ozzy and Freeh couldn't see the whole process through. ME TOOO! I will say this, I've said over the yrs...
Quote..."MXTR"... :
I'm so bummed that Ozzy and Freeh couldn't see the whole process through.

ME TOOO!
I will say this, I've said over the yrs. in many
a situation, "that's a POS, etc..." shoot we all have
at 1 time or another, admit it!
At Buell, I realized that even at the Factory level
which I've been involved in many times in my career,
that we're all "end users" of sorts.
Heck, even the great Roger D. is 1 too........
At Buell, we had a blank page!
At Buell, the light was GREEN, go go go..............
At Buell, I realized it's people!
Sure, outside of all the forward & crazy ideas, "square wheels " I called it all,
these engineers & designers had taught me a new terminology.
There was the "Design Path", the "POC, proof of concept", & there were more
I'd learn quickly as well.
For every idea, & there were many, like that damn seat, I had to be respectful,
yet find a way to kill it before it got a foot hold, but again, like "MXTR" pointed out
it all had to be seen, proven, etc. before it could be exhausted.
Our namesake, was bold!
From the top to the bottom, BOLD!
My "square wheels" thoughts fitted him to a tee, & yet I had total respect for him & them
all as I was sitting in his chair.
In his building.........
Cashing my paycheck from him........
In other words, sure at times, actually many times, I was at my edge.
For me, failure, or the Cannondale-road wasn't an option.
Racing was my goal.
Being decent & accepted was mine.
Frustration was always part of my day, cause I know this stuff,
But still I had respect for it & certainly all involved, "square wheels" or not!
You see, the whole damn deal was as I said earlier, a "POC, proof of concept".
Sure call it a "POS" if you will, that's easy.
But being there wasn't being in the crowd, we had the chance to make history.
That's what drove me & the others.
So ALL, the next time you say that movie sucked, or how dumb the OEM's are,
think about the people. People just like you & I, people with ideas, people drawing
such, creating & building such etc., & then think to yourself, what have I done lately
that matters, & maybe you'll realize the respect that goes with it all for even trying!
Hell, even most critics haven't been & done...........
Hence my earlier 4 points, especially the last.
So, in closing, enjoy your ride, or whatever.........
Someone put their heart & soul into it like it or not......!
Dave O.Wink
























Great read, I've never thought of it that way, you make some great points.
williamsmotowerx 1/21/2010 5:03pm
1/21/2010 5:03pm
I've been on both sides of the fence... don't always take the side of the "guy that races"... or the engineer... or the bean counter.

They all have their reasons.

Anyone ever see that Simpsons episode where Homer designed a car for his brothers car company? It's got to be on Youtube... that episode is so true to the real world in many aspects it ain't even funny.

Dave knows me well enough to know I'm not calling him out... but guys.. there are reasons for everything... it's how it comes together with all divisions/parties involved that makes a great product.

I did some consulting for Briggs... we had a whole building of engineers that got paid well... FEA and actuall stress testing. All to save an ounce here or there in materials on existing designs or new.

It translated into millions and millions in material savings every year.

Pit Row

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stillwelding
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stillwelding 1/21/2010 5:23pm
1/21/2010 5:23pm
DrSweden wrote:
Of course it's a subjective thing, but that design makes me tic. But it does look a bit heavy? I mean there's a lot/unnessesary metal in...
Of course it's a subjective thing, but that design makes me tic.

But it does look a bit heavy? I mean there's a lot/unnessesary metal in that frame desing?
It may look a bit heavy but you're not looking at a conventional extrusion and forging type of aluminum frame. From my understanding Buell was going to use the "Ablation Casting" method of making the frame. Ablative material is designed to slowly burn away in a controlled manner

What the ablation casting does is quench the exterior of the casting, making for EXTREMELY small grain formation at the surfaces. Small grains = better tensile strength and generally more elongation (strain) before failure (strain-to-failure). The quench fluid and quench rate - and tooling materials used are where the art and science have evolved. What you have in effect is a gradient of grain size from small on the exterior to larger in the interior. (borrowed from a Buell blog)

I also understand that you can vary the thickness of the castings wall thickness where needed. Sounds quite unconventional in the motorcycle industry.
stillwelding
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stillwelding 1/22/2010 11:27am
1/22/2010 11:27am
freeh wrote:
Here is the split seat story. For those of you not familiar with Buell, one of their trademarks is to have the fuel stored in the...
Here is the split seat story. For those of you not familiar with Buell, one of their trademarks is to have the fuel stored in the frame. It is part of the mass centralization concept that they developed into the street bike line-up. The dirt bike was to have this concept also. The frame would hold the fuel much lower than the typical plastic gas tank could, but there were trade-offs to accomplish this idea. For example, where and how do put the fuel into the motorcycle. As can be seen from the patent application drawings earlier in this thread, the air box was going to be where the gas tank normally sits, but due to the frame design the place for the fuel input had to be where the airbox nornally is on current dirtbikes. The cap ended up being directly under your balls, literally. So how do you access the gas cap? You have to remove the seat. That, in my mind at least, was unacceptable. Bear in mind, I had no real decision making power in the program, but because I was one of two guys involved that actually raced dirtbikes, they would occasionally listen to me. After some discussions about how to put fuel into the bike, the split seat concept was suggested. That way you would not have to remove the entire seat, just the front half to put the fuel in. This was still way f'ing stupid, but it was the best idea we had at the time. We ended up re-routing the fuel inlet to the front of the frame, so the cap would be in the same location as every other bike. If I remember right, Ozzy's test rider actually rode a bike, not the Buell, with a split seat and said something to the affect of, "get that f'ing thing off of there before I hurt myself."
Freeh, I'm aware that Ozzy had posted that you should get a hold of him. Did you? Maybe a meeting of the minds might work up into a print story or a really good online spectacular.
circus
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circus 1/22/2010 11:40am
1/22/2010 11:40am
stillwelding wrote:
Freeh, I'm aware that Ozzy had posted that you should get a hold of him. Did you? Maybe a meeting of the minds might work up...
Freeh, I'm aware that Ozzy had posted that you should get a hold of him. Did you? Maybe a meeting of the minds might work up into a print story or a really good online spectacular.
Eggs 'n' Things. many great minds have met there.
stillwelding
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stillwelding 1/22/2010 1:58pm
1/22/2010 1:58pm
stillwelding wrote:
Freeh, I'm aware that Ozzy had posted that you should get a hold of him. Did you? Maybe a meeting of the minds might work up...
Freeh, I'm aware that Ozzy had posted that you should get a hold of him. Did you? Maybe a meeting of the minds might work up into a print story or a really good online spectacular.
circus wrote:
Eggs 'n' Things. many great minds have met there.
What time should we be there? Between 9 and 11 you get the Early Bird Specials! What's up with KC? Started yet?
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mxrose3 1/22/2010 2:05pm
1/22/2010 2:05pm
Dave O, I'm sure you put your heart and soul into that bike. We all thank you for trying.
quick question: Is Erik Buell at all interested in reviving this project in the future under his new 'Eric Buell Racing' company?
TerryB
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TerryB 1/22/2010 2:15pm
1/22/2010 2:15pm
stillwelding wrote:
It may look a bit heavy but you're not looking at a conventional extrusion and forging type of aluminum frame. From my understanding Buell was going...
It may look a bit heavy but you're not looking at a conventional extrusion and forging type of aluminum frame. From my understanding Buell was going to use the "Ablation Casting" method of making the frame. Ablative material is designed to slowly burn away in a controlled manner

What the ablation casting does is quench the exterior of the casting, making for EXTREMELY small grain formation at the surfaces. Small grains = better tensile strength and generally more elongation (strain) before failure (strain-to-failure). The quench fluid and quench rate - and tooling materials used are where the art and science have evolved. What you have in effect is a gradient of grain size from small on the exterior to larger in the interior. (borrowed from a Buell blog)

I also understand that you can vary the thickness of the castings wall thickness where needed. Sounds quite unconventional in the motorcycle industry.
Cool info.
MXTR
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MXTR 1/22/2010 2:19pm
1/22/2010 2:19pm
Hey Ozzy......... one of the things that I would have thought that would have drove you crazy, would be the penny pinchers. I couldn't imagine trying to make a cool prototype bike, then to have the money guys pick apart all some of the trick parts that could be too expensive for a production bike.

People think that $8000 is too expensive for a new bike, but when you price out each piece and then add the designing, the molds, the fixtures, the machining, the treatments, the testing.......ect, it all adds up.

Each piece on the bike has so much involved, that's why taking on a project of this magnitude is so amazing.

Can't wait for the full story!
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TerryB 1/22/2010 2:23pm
1/22/2010 2:23pm
mxrose3 wrote:
Dave O, I'm sure you put your heart and soul into that bike. We all thank you for trying. quick question: Is Erik Buell at all...
Dave O, I'm sure you put your heart and soul into that bike. We all thank you for trying.
quick question: Is Erik Buell at all interested in reviving this project in the future under his new 'Eric Buell Racing' company?
What a fantastic fantasy to embark upon. Mr. Buell knows his way around the 2-Stroke quite well. I can only imagine what sort of "Fuel in aluminum framed direct injected reverse inducted, CVT driven" 2-stroke he could build?
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Allracing 1/22/2010 3:09pm
1/22/2010 3:09pm
I know where these guys are coming from, I worked at ATK back in its hey day. Its was so awesome to go to work and ride and get paid for it. I remember I think it was in 1994 ATK sold more motorcycles in the US than KTM did, when I think what could have been it makes me sick to my stomach. All because of a a couple bad decisions.

Just like Ozzy and Freeh, there are SO many woulda, coulda, shoulda, deals.

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mpy 1/22/2010 3:49pm
1/22/2010 3:49pm
Thanks for the great thread! I had a similar experience in New Zealand while working for FX Bikes (lightweight offroad motorcycle), and I can definitely understand the frustrations of putting in a lot of time and effort and seeing nothing come out of it.
hoppsan
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hoppsan 1/22/2010 5:31pm
1/22/2010 5:31pm
c3011 wrote:
This is maybe the most interesting thread I have seen on any of the boards in a couple of years!
InstaHoF
SCYRacing
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SCYRacing 1/22/2010 6:26pm
1/22/2010 6:26pm
Allracing wrote:
I know where these guys are coming from, I worked at ATK back in its hey day. Its was so awesome to go to work and...
I know where these guys are coming from, I worked at ATK back in its hey day. Its was so awesome to go to work and ride and get paid for it. I remember I think it was in 1994 ATK sold more motorcycles in the US than KTM did, when I think what could have been it makes me sick to my stomach. All because of a a couple bad decisions.

Just like Ozzy and Freeh, there are SO many woulda, coulda, shoulda, deals.

I remember being intrigued by ATK's BITD. It was sad to see 'em go away.
Agreed w/ everyone about this thread being HOF...

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