Utah fighting federal attempt to shut down 317 miles of Moab trails

Natester551v
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11/3/2023 1:53pm
So you think that a Republican governor and a Republican legislature - who, by the way, have widely promoted off-road activities in the state with a...

So you think that a Republican governor and a Republican legislature - who, by the way, have widely promoted off-road activities in the state with a major marketing campaign - will be less friendly to off-road enthusiasts than lifetime bureaucrats hanging in D.C.

Whistling

LungButter wrote:
100% Because the Republican Governor and Republican Legislature would be more interested (and rewarded) for helping that land become private land owned by folks who would...

100%

Because the Republican Governor and Republican Legislature would be more interested (and rewarded) for helping that land become private land owned by folks who would have zero interest in letting us recreate on it.

This isn't a crack pot theory, it's facts.  Most states in the West have a long and storied history of selling off state managed lands to private interests.  You don't have to believe me, look it up for yourself.  

The worst thing that could happen to the West is to end up like Texas with only 2% Public Land.

this is the unfortunate truth; so many scumbag land swaps, public land sell-offs, etc.  We're going through that right now in St. George with the Northern Corridor, as well as Long Valley (north end of the Warner Valley riding area).  Rich assholes buy up land near the proposed corridor, then come up with some insane rationale for building it, the land goes up 1000% in value, and they get richer by selling off to commercial developers, etc.  The uniparty is alive and well, and voting (R) is no guarantee that the politicos have our interests in mind.  

6
WhipMeister
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11/3/2023 3:04pm
Titan1 wrote:
I do...and even if they aren't...what happens when some day there is a democrat governor and democrat legislature...who are anti-off road activities? It's really best the...

I do...and even if they aren't...what happens when some day there is a democrat governor and democrat legislature...who are anti-off road activities?

It's really best the land stay in Federal control...but there needs to be some new laws placed which will prevent the federal government (and even worse unelected federal bureaucrats in the BLM and Forest Service) from making massive and sweeping designation changes to the federal land against the will of the local Americans (Like I mentioned earlier, the wilderness, antiquities, and equal access to justice acts all need to me amended...plus other restrictions). 

Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on, federal land...should have the MOST say in how its managed.  Local Americans shouldn't be the ONLY voice in how federal land is managed...but they should have enough say to prevent a change in management or designation from being forced their throats (usually by a bill started by a congressman/woman who doesn't live in the West, let alone their state...or by a bureaucrat in the BLM who is from the East coast), which will hurt their quality of life, affect their jobs, and in some cases irreparably harm their communities. 

The ping-pong back and forth that has happened with the Bears Ears National Monument, for example, should not be allowed...the Antiquities Act shouldn't allow for national monuments of that size (without involving congress) in the first place (especially against the will of the vast majority of Utahns)...and then when the next president uses the same act to shrink it, and then the next uses the same act to expand it...it's just wrong. 

"Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on, federal land...should have the MOST say in how its managed. "

Sounds to me like you favor local governance. But your further comments sound like you think that those local interests will be better served by a bureaucratic panel of Washington, D.C. overlords than by your nearby local, county and state public servants. Who are also your neighbors.

Also, if you feel so passionately about this, the most available solution is to run for office, and win, so you can put your imprint on how it's handled. Helluva a lot easier to accomplish that at the local, county and state levels than in the D.C. cesspool. Once in office, you can call the shots and insure that the corruption that you believe is ongoing (amongst your neighbors) is reined in.

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joshd
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11/3/2023 3:31pm

Is the AMA helping with this at all?

1
LungButter
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11/3/2023 3:50pm
joshd wrote:

Is the AMA helping with this at all?

Highly unlikely.  And unless I've just missed everything talking about it....I don't think any of the aftermarket companies or OEMs are really doing much to fight this fight either.

Kinda sad really. 

It'd be cool if they took like 10% of the racing budget and spent it helping fight the good fight to keep riding areas open for the people who pay their bills.

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1

The Shop

11/3/2023 4:41pm
The Jeep folks are really getting a kick in the nuts..  Easter Jeep Safari in Moab is the biggest off road gathering in the country, they...

The Jeep folks are really getting a kick in the nuts..  Easter Jeep Safari in Moab is the biggest off road gathering in the country, they are losing 1/3 of the trails for that event due to this as well.

One of my first thoughts with this is how local businesses are going to suffer, they have relied on the off-road community for revenue for decades.  I am willing to bet the dim-wits pushing for this would just say, this area will flourish more with folks hiking, MTB, and equestrian visitors.  Either way, more of this crap, more freedom lost.  Outdoor activities on public lands is going to be enjoyed on foot or nothing before too long.  This country is feeling a whole lot less free, every day.

I wonder if corporate companies such as Jeep and others jump in and assist the fight either financially or politically? Hope Utah can win this! Cheers

2
early
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11/3/2023 4:52pm
"Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on...

"Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on, federal land...should have the MOST say in how its managed. "

Sounds to me like you favor local governance. But your further comments sound like you think that those local interests will be better served by a bureaucratic panel of Washington, D.C. overlords than by your nearby local, county and state public servants. Who are also your neighbors.

Also, if you feel so passionately about this, the most available solution is to run for office, and win, so you can put your imprint on how it's handled. Helluva a lot easier to accomplish that at the local, county and state levels than in the D.C. cesspool. Once in office, you can call the shots and insure that the corruption that you believe is ongoing (amongst your neighbors) is reined in.

In a perfect world, local controll does do the will of the people that live next door. However, many people have seen that once the land is turned over to the state that's not exactly what happens. Once long-term leases are signed or the land is sold It's almost impossible to get that land back. I've said it on here before,it's's a lot easier to change the way public land is used than to turn private land in the public land.

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WhipMeister
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11/3/2023 5:46pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2023 5:52pm
early wrote:
In a perfect world, local controll does do the will of the people that live next door. However, many people have seen that once the land...

In a perfect world, local controll does do the will of the people that live next door. However, many people have seen that once the land is turned over to the state that's not exactly what happens. Once long-term leases are signed or the land is sold It's almost impossible to get that land back. I've said it on here before,it's's a lot easier to change the way public land is used than to turn private land in the public land.

If the local citizenry is unwilling to perform public service, that will never change. The great promise of our system of government is that it can be peacefully replaced by the citizenry. I think too many people have lost a grasp of that fundamental prospect. So they don't want to get involved. But the very same people tend to be very active complainers about a so-called 'rigged system' from their keyboards.

The apparatus is in place to force a sea change. Be thankful for that. But I can guarantee you that handing the reins to some D.C. bureaucracy will all but insure that local citizens' interests will be all but ignored. Like they are now by the BLM. There's a reason a lot of people call Washington a cesspool. The label fits. But it's never going to change without someone deciding to get their hands dirty.

Public land means the whole public. Not just the ones you agree with.

 

2
Andrew314
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Montrose, CO, USA
11/3/2023 5:48pm
If the local citizenry is unwilling to perform public service, that will never change. The great promise of our system of government is that it can...

If the local citizenry is unwilling to perform public service, that will never change. The great promise of our system of government is that it can be peacefully replaced by the citizenry. I think too many people have lost a grasp of that fundamental prospect. So they don't want to get involved. But the very same people tend to be very active complainers about a so-called 'rigged system' from their keyboards.

The apparatus is in place to force a sea change. Be thankful for that. But I can guarantee you that handing the reins to some D.C. bureaucracy will all but insure that local citizens' interests will be all but ignored. Like they are now by the BLM. There's a reason a lot of people call Washington a cesspool. The label fits. But it's never going to change without someone deciding to get their hands dirty.

Public land means the whole public. Not just the ones you agree with.

 

100%. Think legal and local. The federal government is long gone. Focus on your community.

4
zehn
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11/3/2023 5:55pm Edited Date/Time 11/3/2023 6:18pm
LungButter wrote:
That's just as horrible of an idea as closing the trails. We don't need to go down the rabbit hole here, but if you think States...

That's just as horrible of an idea as closing the trails.

We don't need to go down the rabbit hole here, but if you think States being in control of the land is good for Public Access, Trail Riding, Recreation etc....  it's just not true.

Do some quick searches on how much State Land was sold off to private interests in Nevada for just one example of the travesty it would be if the states got control of the Forest Service and BLM Land.

So you think that a Republican governor and a Republican legislature - who, by the way, have widely promoted off-road activities in the state with a...

So you think that a Republican governor and a Republican legislature - who, by the way, have widely promoted off-road activities in the state with a major marketing campaign - will be less friendly to off-road enthusiasts than lifetime bureaucrats hanging in D.C.

Whistling

Way to completely miss the point. State control of land inevitably leads to more private (read: corporations) ownership of land, a trend that increases in states with Republican Governors and Legislatures. They see a way to get some revenue and reduce government control of land, small gubmint and all that, so they sell it. State ownership is not the answer.

Again, see what happened in Nevada. Or don't and just ignorantly spout off. What Titan is proposing is a good long-term solution. Not perfect, but good

I should also say that in states with Democrat Governors and Legislatures, lands are more likely to be cutoff from motorized vehicles for conservation reasons, I think we all know this. So both suck

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WhipMeister
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11/3/2023 7:29pm
zehn wrote:
Way to completely miss the point. State control of land inevitably leads to more private (read: corporations) ownership of land, a trend that increases in states...

Way to completely miss the point. State control of land inevitably leads to more private (read: corporations) ownership of land, a trend that increases in states with Republican Governors and Legislatures. They see a way to get some revenue and reduce government control of land, small gubmint and all that, so they sell it. State ownership is not the answer.

Again, see what happened in Nevada. Or don't and just ignorantly spout off. What Titan is proposing is a good long-term solution. Not perfect, but good

I should also say that in states with Democrat Governors and Legislatures, lands are more likely to be cutoff from motorized vehicles for conservation reasons, I think we all know this. So both suck

I think it might be you that is missing the point. The only way that happens is if good folks stand by and do nothing. These are public institutions. You, or anyone, can run, get elected, and then serve the interests of your electorate. Presumably that would include shutting down the sweetheart deals that result in the thing that you claim is inevitable. It's only inevitable as long as good people stand on the sidelines and enable it.  And if you think that ceding local authority to D.C. leads to less private takeover, I have some beachfront land in Omaha I want to offer you. Comes with surfboards.

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Andrew314
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11/3/2023 7:36pm
I think it might be you that is missing the point. The only way that happens is if good folks stand by and do nothing. These...

I think it might be you that is missing the point. The only way that happens is if good folks stand by and do nothing. These are public institutions. You, or anyone, can run, get elected, and then serve the interests of your electorate. Presumably that would include shutting down the sweetheart deals that result in the thing that you claim is inevitable. It's only inevitable as long as good people stand on the sidelines and enable it.  And if you think that ceding local authority to D.C. leads to less private takeover, I have some beachfront land in Omaha I want to offer you. Comes with surfboards.

Exactly. Stop crying and get involved. Go to your local meetings. You will find out, like have, that you will be the youngest person there by decades. Start small, run for school board, city council, county commissioner etc. Be involved in your community, it will make a difference.

1
StillSmokin
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11/3/2023 9:02pm

Quite frankly, good riddance. So long jeep nerds. 

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11
Magoofan
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11/3/2023 10:16pm

Quite frankly, good riddance. So long jeep nerds. 

What a dick comment....

Remember that when 2-wheels are banned and some POS says "So long dirt bikers".   

 

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Joey Bridges
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11/4/2023 1:11am

Quite frankly, good riddance. So long jeep nerds. 

Feel better, boy ??

Is this going to get you the attention you so desperately crave ???

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Joey Bridges
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11/4/2023 1:16am

It would appear that some have failed to carefully read the title of the thread. 

 

"Utah fighting federal attempt..."

In this instance the STATE knows better how to handle its land.

3
Richy
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11/4/2023 2:47am

Quite frankly, good riddance. So long jeep nerds. 

That's how a lot of the world will feel when dirtbikes are given the boot...

Off-road enthusiasts are in this thing together, you need the numbers, jeeps, quads, sxs wankers, bikers, mountain bikers, etc. Numbers matter.

9
LungButter
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11/4/2023 4:30pm
It would appear that some have failed to carefully read the title of the thread.    "Utah fighting federal attempt..." In this instance the STATE knows...

It would appear that some have failed to carefully read the title of the thread. 

 

"Utah fighting federal attempt..."

In this instance the STATE knows better how to handle its land.

It would appear you are ignoring the other facts being presented to continue to follow the narrative you like. 
 

The Feds give control of that chunk of land to Utah and there is a VERY HIGH chance it ends up in private hands with no access at all for us regular folk. 
 

History doesn’t lie. Utah used to have 7.4 million acres of state land, they’ve sold off over half of that. 
 

 

1
Titan1
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11/6/2023 9:35am
Titan1 wrote:
I do...and even if they aren't...what happens when some day there is a democrat governor and democrat legislature...who are anti-off road activities? It's really best the...

I do...and even if they aren't...what happens when some day there is a democrat governor and democrat legislature...who are anti-off road activities?

It's really best the land stay in Federal control...but there needs to be some new laws placed which will prevent the federal government (and even worse unelected federal bureaucrats in the BLM and Forest Service) from making massive and sweeping designation changes to the federal land against the will of the local Americans (Like I mentioned earlier, the wilderness, antiquities, and equal access to justice acts all need to me amended...plus other restrictions). 

Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on, federal land...should have the MOST say in how its managed.  Local Americans shouldn't be the ONLY voice in how federal land is managed...but they should have enough say to prevent a change in management or designation from being forced their throats (usually by a bill started by a congressman/woman who doesn't live in the West, let alone their state...or by a bureaucrat in the BLM who is from the East coast), which will hurt their quality of life, affect their jobs, and in some cases irreparably harm their communities. 

The ping-pong back and forth that has happened with the Bears Ears National Monument, for example, should not be allowed...the Antiquities Act shouldn't allow for national monuments of that size (without involving congress) in the first place (especially against the will of the vast majority of Utahns)...and then when the next president uses the same act to shrink it, and then the next uses the same act to expand it...it's just wrong. 

"Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on...

"Basically, I feel that the Americans who live next to, work next to, and in many cases the survival of their entire communities are dependent on, federal land...should have the MOST say in how its managed. "

Sounds to me like you favor local governance. But your further comments sound like you think that those local interests will be better served by a bureaucratic panel of Washington, D.C. overlords than by your nearby local, county and state public servants. Who are also your neighbors.

Also, if you feel so passionately about this, the most available solution is to run for office, and win, so you can put your imprint on how it's handled. Helluva a lot easier to accomplish that at the local, county and state levels than in the D.C. cesspool. Once in office, you can call the shots and insure that the corruption that you believe is ongoing (amongst your neighbors) is reined in.

What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T want them to have complete control over the land. 

Keep the land as federal land...put some restrictions in place so the POTUS, or an un-elected bureaucrat, can't force a management plan or designation change down the throats of the Americans who will be most significantly affected by how the land is managed.

It's called a compromise.  

And trust me, I've been VERY involved in this battle...I've given more time, and effort to this than most people have.  Why have I stepped back?  Because OHV users just don't care...they'll drop $12K on a dirt bike (or $30K on a SXS), $90K on a 5thwheel toy hauler, $80K on a truck, but won't donate $50/year, or take the time to write a semi-coherent email...the industry just doesn't care...I was constantly shut down by the industry when trying to rally some support (either a platform to raise awareness, or money) to fight these closures...for example, LOCAL dealers I spoke with had no interest in trying to educate their customers on proper public land use (by simply giving them some information pamphlets with the purchase, and going over some very basic public land etiquette), or in donating a Blue Ribbon Coalition membership with every machine purchased, or a plethora of things we tried...and they just don't care.   You'd think between the Big 5, they'd be able to summon enough money to fund a decent lobbyist or two to protect their interests in DC...You'd think they'd want to use their platform to raise awareness among their customers about ways to keep public land open...but NOPE...nothing!  

So, OHV users will lose this battle...if...they don't start caring.  And it's almost too late.  

8
Titan1
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11/6/2023 9:38am

Here is what we lost (part of it) and what Utah is fighting for...this isn't my video just found it online today...it's worth pointing out, that the roads hes on at the beginning, not to many years ago, used to be single track (thank you sxs's!) 

 

 

 

1
zookrider62!
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11/6/2023 9:59am
joshd wrote:

Is the AMA helping with this at all?

only if people are pushing to be able to ride with no helmets on the Moab trails

3
LungButter
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11/6/2023 10:06am
Titan1 wrote:
What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T...

What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T want them to have complete control over the land. 

Keep the land as federal land...put some restrictions in place so the POTUS, or an un-elected bureaucrat, can't force a management plan or designation change down the throats of the Americans who will be most significantly affected by how the land is managed.

It's called a compromise.  

And trust me, I've been VERY involved in this battle...I've given more time, and effort to this than most people have.  Why have I stepped back?  Because OHV users just don't care...they'll drop $12K on a dirt bike (or $30K on a SXS), $90K on a 5thwheel toy hauler, $80K on a truck, but won't donate $50/year, or take the time to write a semi-coherent email...the industry just doesn't care...I was constantly shut down by the industry when trying to rally some support (either a platform to raise awareness, or money) to fight these closures...for example, LOCAL dealers I spoke with had no interest in trying to educate their customers on proper public land use (by simply giving them some information pamphlets with the purchase, and going over some very basic public land etiquette), or in donating a Blue Ribbon Coalition membership with every machine purchased, or a plethora of things we tried...and they just don't care.   You'd think between the Big 5, they'd be able to summon enough money to fund a decent lobbyist or two to protect their interests in DC...You'd think they'd want to use their platform to raise awareness among their customers about ways to keep public land open...but NOPE...nothing!  

So, OHV users will lose this battle...if...they don't start caring.  And it's almost too late.  

Preach it brother.....

Blue Ribbon Coalition is in this fight but they sure don't do a very good job of marketing or making it "cool"....they should take note of how non-profits in other sectors have gained social status and popularity.

Here is their list of supporters.....don't see many industry heavy hitters on here....

https://www.sharetrails.org/member-organizations-businesses/


where is FMF, Renthal, Pro Circuit, Dunlop, Wiseco, 100%, Hinson, Rekluse, Works Connection etc. etc. etc.  don't these companies realize that as we lose riding areas they lose business?  

2
Natester551v
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St. George, UT, USA
11/6/2023 10:44am
Titan1 wrote:
What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T...

What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T want them to have complete control over the land. 

Keep the land as federal land...put some restrictions in place so the POTUS, or an un-elected bureaucrat, can't force a management plan or designation change down the throats of the Americans who will be most significantly affected by how the land is managed.

It's called a compromise.  

And trust me, I've been VERY involved in this battle...I've given more time, and effort to this than most people have.  Why have I stepped back?  Because OHV users just don't care...they'll drop $12K on a dirt bike (or $30K on a SXS), $90K on a 5thwheel toy hauler, $80K on a truck, but won't donate $50/year, or take the time to write a semi-coherent email...the industry just doesn't care...I was constantly shut down by the industry when trying to rally some support (either a platform to raise awareness, or money) to fight these closures...for example, LOCAL dealers I spoke with had no interest in trying to educate their customers on proper public land use (by simply giving them some information pamphlets with the purchase, and going over some very basic public land etiquette), or in donating a Blue Ribbon Coalition membership with every machine purchased, or a plethora of things we tried...and they just don't care.   You'd think between the Big 5, they'd be able to summon enough money to fund a decent lobbyist or two to protect their interests in DC...You'd think they'd want to use their platform to raise awareness among their customers about ways to keep public land open...but NOPE...nothing!  

So, OHV users will lose this battle...if...they don't start caring.  And it's almost too late.  

So true...I would venture to guess that most offroad riders don't even know what the BRC is.

I'm seeing a worrying trend in mtb as well; NICA has done a great job of growing high school mtb racing...to the point where we had 7300 kids in Utah racing this year.  I love seeing kids off their phones and out riding, but I know from discussions with people up along the Wasatch front that it has created this monster where trailheads are getting clogged up, rude kids piss off other users, etc.  

So it's not just dirt bikes vs. SXS and tree huggers.  It's land use in general.  My theory on why Euro MX fans are so absolutely nuts at races (think MXdN or the Erzberg Rodeo) is partially because they have so few places to ride/recreate that when the opportunity arises they go completely off the hook....

2
Titan1
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Lehi, UT, USA
11/6/2023 11:06am
Titan1 wrote:
What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T...

What I'm saying is I want the Americans who live closest to the land to have the most say in how the land is managed...I DON'T want them to have complete control over the land. 

Keep the land as federal land...put some restrictions in place so the POTUS, or an un-elected bureaucrat, can't force a management plan or designation change down the throats of the Americans who will be most significantly affected by how the land is managed.

It's called a compromise.  

And trust me, I've been VERY involved in this battle...I've given more time, and effort to this than most people have.  Why have I stepped back?  Because OHV users just don't care...they'll drop $12K on a dirt bike (or $30K on a SXS), $90K on a 5thwheel toy hauler, $80K on a truck, but won't donate $50/year, or take the time to write a semi-coherent email...the industry just doesn't care...I was constantly shut down by the industry when trying to rally some support (either a platform to raise awareness, or money) to fight these closures...for example, LOCAL dealers I spoke with had no interest in trying to educate their customers on proper public land use (by simply giving them some information pamphlets with the purchase, and going over some very basic public land etiquette), or in donating a Blue Ribbon Coalition membership with every machine purchased, or a plethora of things we tried...and they just don't care.   You'd think between the Big 5, they'd be able to summon enough money to fund a decent lobbyist or two to protect their interests in DC...You'd think they'd want to use their platform to raise awareness among their customers about ways to keep public land open...but NOPE...nothing!  

So, OHV users will lose this battle...if...they don't start caring.  And it's almost too late.  

So true...I would venture to guess that most offroad riders don't even know what the BRC is. I'm seeing a worrying trend in mtb as well...

So true...I would venture to guess that most offroad riders don't even know what the BRC is.

I'm seeing a worrying trend in mtb as well; NICA has done a great job of growing high school mtb racing...to the point where we had 7300 kids in Utah racing this year.  I love seeing kids off their phones and out riding, but I know from discussions with people up along the Wasatch front that it has created this monster where trailheads are getting clogged up, rude kids piss off other users, etc.  

So it's not just dirt bikes vs. SXS and tree huggers.  It's land use in general.  My theory on why Euro MX fans are so absolutely nuts at races (think MXdN or the Erzberg Rodeo) is partially because they have so few places to ride/recreate that when the opportunity arises they go completely off the hook....

My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner Canyon team with almost 300 riders, Skyridge team with over 200 riders, Lone Peak team with over 200 riders, Lehi team with just under 200 riders...all on the trail systems at the same time it gets crowded and I can see it frustrates other users. 

What I see differently in the MTB world, is that they are more self aware, and they-by and large-care far more about protecting access (and almost put it as a priority over having fun)...the I the exact opposite in the OHV world.

For example, the teams work together to try and not have practices at the same time in the same locations...because they are aware-and care-about causing problems with other trail users.  Some teams practice in the morning, some practice in the evenings...and they'll spread the morning/evening teams between Eagle Mountain system, Valle Vista trail System, Corner Canyon, and Butterfield Canyon...to try and not have more than one team on any trail system at once.  And then the teams will rotate so they can all ride the various trail systems. 

Anyway...maybe a bad example...but its an entirely different vibe from the mtb community when it comes to protecting trail access than in the OHV community. 

5
early
Posts
10018
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
11/6/2023 11:16am
Titan1 wrote:
My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner...

My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner Canyon team with almost 300 riders, Skyridge team with over 200 riders, Lone Peak team with over 200 riders, Lehi team with just under 200 riders...all on the trail systems at the same time it gets crowded and I can see it frustrates other users. 

What I see differently in the MTB world, is that they are more self aware, and they-by and large-care far more about protecting access (and almost put it as a priority over having fun)...the I the exact opposite in the OHV world.

For example, the teams work together to try and not have practices at the same time in the same locations...because they are aware-and care-about causing problems with other trail users.  Some teams practice in the morning, some practice in the evenings...and they'll spread the morning/evening teams between Eagle Mountain system, Valle Vista trail System, Corner Canyon, and Butterfield Canyon...to try and not have more than one team on any trail system at once.  And then the teams will rotate so they can all ride the various trail systems. 

Anyway...maybe a bad example...but its an entirely different vibe from the mtb community when it comes to protecting trail access than in the OHV community. 

Seems like protecting public land use access is a huge deal for every user group except OHV. 

3
Titan1
Posts
9444
Joined
2/3/2010
Location
Lehi, UT, USA
11/7/2023 11:03am
Titan1 wrote:
My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner...

My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner Canyon team with almost 300 riders, Skyridge team with over 200 riders, Lone Peak team with over 200 riders, Lehi team with just under 200 riders...all on the trail systems at the same time it gets crowded and I can see it frustrates other users. 

What I see differently in the MTB world, is that they are more self aware, and they-by and large-care far more about protecting access (and almost put it as a priority over having fun)...the I the exact opposite in the OHV world.

For example, the teams work together to try and not have practices at the same time in the same locations...because they are aware-and care-about causing problems with other trail users.  Some teams practice in the morning, some practice in the evenings...and they'll spread the morning/evening teams between Eagle Mountain system, Valle Vista trail System, Corner Canyon, and Butterfield Canyon...to try and not have more than one team on any trail system at once.  And then the teams will rotate so they can all ride the various trail systems. 

Anyway...maybe a bad example...but its an entirely different vibe from the mtb community when it comes to protecting trail access than in the OHV community. 

early wrote:

Seems like protecting public land use access is a huge deal for every user group except OHV. 

Pretty much...there is a very small, but very valiant, group of OHV users which are doing the work to keep public lands open...but without more participation, its a losing battle.

I know, I know..."I live on the East coast, why do I care if trails in the West get closed?"...or..."I only ride moto, why should I care if off road trails get closed, doesn't affect me at all."  Here's the thing with that attitude...if riding areas (tracks, or trails) continue to get shut down (because of noise, or greenies) it limits the number of potential future participants in your sport...the further one has to drive to get to a ride area (private track, or public land) the less likely they are to get into the sport...that means less moto riders, less east coast riders...less revenue to the manufactures, the dealers, the aftermarket companies, the gear companies...less money they have for R&D, less money they have to fund racing...EVERYONE is affected as we lose riding areas.  So everyone SHOULD care...but few actually do. 

Honestly, I think it proves some of the stereotypes about OHV users.  The harder sports attract a different type of person than easier sports....the type of people that are hard working, determined, respectful, self disciplined, etc are more likely to do harder sports...I think that is why the cross country mtb community is more respectful than the moto community.  It's just harder, and so you get a different type of people doing it and you get MORE disrespectful folks in moto than mountain biking...it's also why the SXS community is so much different than the moto community...it's so easy to hop in a SXS and go blast across the desert, you end up with MORE lazy, entitled, disrespectful idiots tearing up the trails and desert in SXS than on dirt bikes...and more people on dirt bikes than mountain bikes.  (I even see this within the mtb community...the "down hill" only crowd is different than the cross country crowd...by and large the downhill only crowd is younger, more about image, and more disrespectful than the xc crowd, because its so much easier).  Just a theory...there are great people in all genres...but the easier the activity, on average the lower quality of individual is going to participate in it.

7
Natester551v
Posts
996
Joined
1/11/2015
Location
St. George, UT, USA
11/7/2023 12:38pm
Titan1 wrote:
Pretty much...there is a very small, but very valiant, group of OHV users which are doing the work to keep public lands open...but without more participation...

Pretty much...there is a very small, but very valiant, group of OHV users which are doing the work to keep public lands open...but without more participation, its a losing battle.

I know, I know..."I live on the East coast, why do I care if trails in the West get closed?"...or..."I only ride moto, why should I care if off road trails get closed, doesn't affect me at all."  Here's the thing with that attitude...if riding areas (tracks, or trails) continue to get shut down (because of noise, or greenies) it limits the number of potential future participants in your sport...the further one has to drive to get to a ride area (private track, or public land) the less likely they are to get into the sport...that means less moto riders, less east coast riders...less revenue to the manufactures, the dealers, the aftermarket companies, the gear companies...less money they have for R&D, less money they have to fund racing...EVERYONE is affected as we lose riding areas.  So everyone SHOULD care...but few actually do. 

Honestly, I think it proves some of the stereotypes about OHV users.  The harder sports attract a different type of person than easier sports....the type of people that are hard working, determined, respectful, self disciplined, etc are more likely to do harder sports...I think that is why the cross country mtb community is more respectful than the moto community.  It's just harder, and so you get a different type of people doing it and you get MORE disrespectful folks in moto than mountain biking...it's also why the SXS community is so much different than the moto community...it's so easy to hop in a SXS and go blast across the desert, you end up with MORE lazy, entitled, disrespectful idiots tearing up the trails and desert in SXS than on dirt bikes...and more people on dirt bikes than mountain bikes.  (I even see this within the mtb community...the "down hill" only crowd is different than the cross country crowd...by and large the downhill only crowd is younger, more about image, and more disrespectful than the xc crowd, because its so much easier).  Just a theory...there are great people in all genres...but the easier the activity, on average the lower quality of individual is going to participate in it.

Well said!

11/7/2023 3:40pm
Titan1 wrote:
My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner...

My son rides with NICA (and I'm a ride leader)...it is an issue on the single track trails (at Corner Canyon especially)...when you've got the Corner Canyon team with almost 300 riders, Skyridge team with over 200 riders, Lone Peak team with over 200 riders, Lehi team with just under 200 riders...all on the trail systems at the same time it gets crowded and I can see it frustrates other users. 

What I see differently in the MTB world, is that they are more self aware, and they-by and large-care far more about protecting access (and almost put it as a priority over having fun)...the I the exact opposite in the OHV world.

For example, the teams work together to try and not have practices at the same time in the same locations...because they are aware-and care-about causing problems with other trail users.  Some teams practice in the morning, some practice in the evenings...and they'll spread the morning/evening teams between Eagle Mountain system, Valle Vista trail System, Corner Canyon, and Butterfield Canyon...to try and not have more than one team on any trail system at once.  And then the teams will rotate so they can all ride the various trail systems. 

Anyway...maybe a bad example...but its an entirely different vibe from the mtb community when it comes to protecting trail access than in the OHV community. 

early wrote:

Seems like protecting public land use access is a huge deal for every user group except OHV. 

Titan1 wrote:
Pretty much...there is a very small, but very valiant, group of OHV users which are doing the work to keep public lands open...but without more participation...

Pretty much...there is a very small, but very valiant, group of OHV users which are doing the work to keep public lands open...but without more participation, its a losing battle.

I know, I know..."I live on the East coast, why do I care if trails in the West get closed?"...or..."I only ride moto, why should I care if off road trails get closed, doesn't affect me at all."  Here's the thing with that attitude...if riding areas (tracks, or trails) continue to get shut down (because of noise, or greenies) it limits the number of potential future participants in your sport...the further one has to drive to get to a ride area (private track, or public land) the less likely they are to get into the sport...that means less moto riders, less east coast riders...less revenue to the manufactures, the dealers, the aftermarket companies, the gear companies...less money they have for R&D, less money they have to fund racing...EVERYONE is affected as we lose riding areas.  So everyone SHOULD care...but few actually do. 

Honestly, I think it proves some of the stereotypes about OHV users.  The harder sports attract a different type of person than easier sports....the type of people that are hard working, determined, respectful, self disciplined, etc are more likely to do harder sports...I think that is why the cross country mtb community is more respectful than the moto community.  It's just harder, and so you get a different type of people doing it and you get MORE disrespectful folks in moto than mountain biking...it's also why the SXS community is so much different than the moto community...it's so easy to hop in a SXS and go blast across the desert, you end up with MORE lazy, entitled, disrespectful idiots tearing up the trails and desert in SXS than on dirt bikes...and more people on dirt bikes than mountain bikes.  (I even see this within the mtb community...the "down hill" only crowd is different than the cross country crowd...by and large the downhill only crowd is younger, more about image, and more disrespectful than the xc crowd, because its so much easier).  Just a theory...there are great people in all genres...but the easier the activity, on average the lower quality of individual is going to participate in it.

Sadly this is very true. I ride MTB and Moto, the state of parking/staging areas at the trails for each sport tells the whole story. Most OHV staging areas in my area have trash, people parking in bushes, disrespectful behavior, occasional fights, etc. MTB areas are clean and respectful. As Moto guys, we are our own worst enemy and need to do a better job of self-policing. Your comment about the relative difficulty of the two sports is also accurate

1
Natester551v
Posts
996
Joined
1/11/2015
Location
St. George, UT, USA
11/7/2023 7:54pm
Sadly this is very true. I ride MTB and Moto, the state of parking/staging areas at the trails for each sport tells the whole story. Most...

Sadly this is very true. I ride MTB and Moto, the state of parking/staging areas at the trails for each sport tells the whole story. Most OHV staging areas in my area have trash, people parking in bushes, disrespectful behavior, occasional fights, etc. MTB areas are clean and respectful. As Moto guys, we are our own worst enemy and need to do a better job of self-policing. Your comment about the relative difficulty of the two sports is also accurate

Most of our mtb trailhead parking areas have huge ruts from SXS idiots doing donuts in the gravel...it's out of control....

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