Big strong and/or Tall guys have no place in pro MX/SX these days

ridge
Posts
2394
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
Apple Valley, CA US
12/25/2009 11:03pm
CamP wrote:
Racing well is mostly mental. If you think you are at a disadvantage because you are tall, you go to the line already defeated.
I go to the line defeeted every time but I've had a pretty good run lately. lol
CamP
Posts
6826
Joined
8/16/2006
Location
Colleyville, TX US
12/25/2009 11:06pm
CamP wrote:
Racing well is mostly mental. If you think you are at a disadvantage because you are tall, you go to the line already defeated.
Moto112 wrote:
I agree, but, you big guys are not getting a fair chance to be the next "Ricky Charmichael" like the littel guys are. I'm just wanting...
I agree, but, you big guys are not getting a fair chance to be the next "Ricky Charmichael" like the littel guys are. I'm just wanting to add some parity to make it more fair.
Having a minimum combined weight limit for rider and the bike would be more fair.
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/25/2009 11:08pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:37pm
Moto112 wrote:
Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the...
Ever since Jeff ward started winning the writing was on the wall for the big guys that MX was going to be the domain of the short people.

I want to see anyone that wants to race to be able to have the same mid corner speed and the same corner to corner speed, and right now that ain't the case. The big boys transfer so much weight (that is higher up on their bodies) from the front of the bike to the rear that they are really not riding in the same class with the same advantages as the mighty mites. If we had rules that created an equal playing field I think you'd see different people winning regularly.

Now I'm only just about 1/2" over 6' and about 185 (when trained down to fighting weight), and I fit the current bikes just fine, so don't say I'm suggesting this because I'm one of the big guys but, as a current pro I would still have some disadvantage against the smaller guys. I think Windham and Millsaps must both be phenoms based on the disadvantage that I know they have, even though neither is my favorite rider. That throttle pinning radical kid Josh Grant is my favorite and he fits the bike perfectly.

When I was young, in pro MX we had the 500 class and it was where all the 6'+ boys rode, some of them were even 6' 3"+ and a few over 220 lbs., example; John Finkelday, Alan King, etc. Back then, and now, the little guys could lift weights and train to put on body weight, where the big guys had to stay too skinny and that really hurt them when they crashed. Even back then the little guys had the start advantage and after about 1985 the suspension rebound got more controllable and the forks ridged enough to negate any real strength and larger body that was needed. As soon as Jeff Ward started winning on a 250 (1984 & 1985) it was clear that big bodies were a big handicap and the days of the big guys were all but over. .

Its even worse now! Look at career longevity vs height in MX/SX and you will see exactly what I mean! The tall guys don't last long, with just a few exceptions (Larry ward)! Look at success vs height, there is a even bigger disparity there. Travis Pastrana is a perfect example, the kid was too big to have been on 125's when he was on 125's and still he won. He went over the bars a few times too many, and his skinny body broke instead of rolling like Charmichaels always seemed to do, and it ended his seasons and eventually his career early. Travis needed bigger bikes, with a longer wheelbase to minimize the weight transfer, and keep him from going over the bars, and he needed to get stronger (and weigh more) so he could stay together after a big crash.

Watch the video of Windham beating Charmichael at the 2001 Washougal national. Windhams bars are over the front fender and he looks about a foot too tall to be on the bike. He was leaning forward over the front fender like a ski jumper just to get down the straights. It was a miracle win. He got to the 4-stoke asap and he knew he had to, to stay competitive. It helped until everyone esle got a big thumper also.

The short guys have such an advantage on the start, at most of the races they are at the front and it has to change. Charmichael's 24-moto win steak, was due to hotshots and acceleration, both are due to his combined bike and rider weight being way low. Stewarts streak was due to his outright speed but, both Sewart and Charmichael are short small guys that always start at the front, even if they gate badly, there is no bigger advantage.

The acceleration of the bike with its rider has to be the same for everyone, no matter what the riders body weight!

I want to see the big guys fit their bikes and have the same acceleration and chance to get the hole shot, and just be able to pin it and hang on like the little guys do, and not have to fight the weight transfer from corner to corner and everywhere else.

I have been thinking that we need a second set of bike rules for the larger riders. How about a bike that the little guys are too small to ride well with 23" front wheel and 21" rear. Those larger wheels would lift the bike 1" and necessitate raising the suspension above the wheels another 1". It would also create more mass by increasing the weight of the wheels and that would have to be overcome by the riders strength. Still, how would we prevent the "Charmichael mods" of shrinking the sub frame, lowering the travel and still winning just because he's weighs 100#'s less? We have to have some kind of bike + rider combined wight minimum just like in every other form of motor sport.

So what do you guys think will work and even the field, more displacement, larger wheels, what do the big guys need to be able to have the same speed?
Thats why we have never had a minmum rider & bike weight rule, it might really kill the smller guys, and no one wants that either. The AMA needs to look into it and try something though.
12/25/2009 11:29pm
you know, one of the smoothest guys I have ever watched very recetly is taller than 6"0, he rides so effortless and just flows its un-believable. I have personally watched him do 35min motos with consistant FAST lap times, so to me yer wrong buddy. Not to mention there are a few guys similar to him.

The Shop

Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/25/2009 11:45pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:37pm
What else can you guys think of?

Height and Weight equal Center of Gravity (CG), so maybe we can adjust wheelbase and bike weight to adjust for CG, then we can get everyone on the motor displacement that we think would be fair for their combined weight and CG.

I know its complicated, but this is for pro racing only. What would that scale look like?

We'll make 450lbs. the highest combined rider & bike weight.

CamP at 6' 6" will be at the top on height but since he weighs less than the max of 225#, he only gets part of the maximum wheelbase extension.

We'll make 225lbs rider weight the highest body weight, so it carries no ballast on the bike. But if you weight 225 and you are only 5'5" you only get about half of the wheelbase extension to make your CG equal to everyone else's.

Depending on his height every rider would get whatever; WB, weight and displacement that he needed to keep his CG , acceleration and power to weight ratio that was equal to a set formula.

No one could say that they didn't get consideration for their body type and weight and that would be so much more fair than it is now. We the fans, would get to see some incredibly close racing from the first turn to the finish.

We'd be ablt to race Danica Patrick against Shak O'Neal and they would both have a fair chance in performance on the start and everywhere else.
shaner708
Posts
631
Joined
5/27/2009
Location
Export, PA US
12/25/2009 11:46pm
I have not read all the posts in this thread so forgive me if any of this has been said.

Tall people can be successful in the sport look at Windham or Pastrana. I do think it is harder for us tall guys though (I am 6' 2"). IMO most taller guys are a little less coordinated, or it takes them a few years to grow into their new body size while maturing. I think height can be a slight disadvantage but can be overcome by talent and set up.

Big muscular guys on the other hand are almost no existent in our sport but my example is Weston Peick. He is a big boy for sure, but this year I flagged at the Steel City national and he was doing things on the bike that no one else had the muscle to do. I mean, it didnt matter if he made a mistake the bike was never in control of him, he could force that thing to go exactly where he wanted it. I think that could be an advantage to him and it was awesome to watch
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/25/2009 11:51pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:37pm
"Big muscular guys on the other hand are almost no existent in our sport"

Thats because they get thir butts kicked by skinny kids with a lower CG.

I want to see those big guys in our sport also and they aint gonna get here unless something is done.

You know why I have never heard of your Weston Peick? Becasue he's too big for the current rules.
shaner708
Posts
631
Joined
5/27/2009
Location
Export, PA US
12/25/2009 11:55pm
Moto112 wrote:
"Big muscular guys on the other hand are almost no existent in our sport" Thats because they get thir butts kicked by skinny kids with a...
"Big muscular guys on the other hand are almost no existent in our sport"

Thats because they get thir butts kicked by skinny kids with a lower CG.

I want to see those big guys in our sport also and they aint gonna get here unless something is done.

You know why I have never heard of your Weston Peick? Becasue he's too big for the current rules.
No you've never heard of him because you must not pay attention, he had a few top 10's this year in his rookie season
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/26/2009 12:01am
Your right, I only see the TV results these days and those are always the short guys followed by the taller skinny guys.

I hope your Mr Peick proves physics wrong, but history in our sport says he won't.

He'd be better look at car racing until this sport gets some equalizing formula.
FIREfish148
Posts
5481
Joined
1/20/2009
Location
Kirkland, WA US
12/26/2009 12:07am
Moto112 wrote:
"Big muscular guys on the other hand are almost no existent in our sport" Thats because they get thir butts kicked by skinny kids with a...
"Big muscular guys on the other hand are almost no existent in our sport"

Thats because they get thir butts kicked by skinny kids with a lower CG.

I want to see those big guys in our sport also and they aint gonna get here unless something is done.

You know why I have never heard of your Weston Peick? Becasue he's too big for the current rules.
this kid cant be for real.
jeffro503
Posts
27629
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
12/26/2009 12:13am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:37pm
Wait.....what about Bailey and Glover and a few of the old school guys......they were over 6'.


I do see the O.P. point though. BUT.....being short or tall.....both have advantages and disadvantages. It also depends on fitness ( which Preston never had!) and the heart that beats in your chest......as in how fucking bad do you want it?


some really good tall guys :

Mike "too tall" bell

David Bailey

Broc Glover

Marty Smith

Ron Lechien

Jonny O' ( I think?)

Mike Larocco ( I think?)

K.W.

D.V



And almost every guy i just named won championships. I remember an interview with Jeff ward where he mentioned he was at a "dis-advantage" because of his height as well. He said that Bailey and Glover could both soak up a lot of the rough tracks better.
jeffro503
Posts
27629
Joined
7/22/2007
Location
St Helens, OR US
12/26/2009 12:17am
One more thing.......

I kind of think that the shorter guys have an advantage in the SX. Where as i think being a little taller out doors is an advantage. I'm speaking in general here , i'm not talking about RC , or Jeff ward.........just speaking in general.
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/26/2009 12:21am Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 7:37pm
Mike bell was 6' 3"
Glover, Bailey, Johnson, lechien were all 6'2"
O'mara was about 5' 9"
KW is 6' 1" I think.
DV is about 6'3" and the Suzuli could not work for his height and weight last year and that retired him back to France.
Lorocco is about 5'10" I believe
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/26/2009 12:23am
jeffro503 wrote:
One more thing....... I kind of think that the shorter guys have an advantage in the SX. Where as i think being a little taller out...
One more thing.......

I kind of think that the shorter guys have an advantage in the SX. Where as i think being a little taller out doors is an advantage. I'm speaking in general here , i'm not talking about RC , or Jeff ward.........just speaking in general.
I agree with that, generally.
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/26/2009 12:36am
Ok I'm out. You guys keep discussing this. I want to read your posts

Supercorss preview today (Saturday) 2:30PM Eastern on CBS

ShaneAUS
Posts
66
Joined
9/19/2009
Location
AU
12/26/2009 2:42am
Moto112 wrote:
It can't be said about car racing either. The car weighs 10-20-times what the driver weighs in most car sports and they weigh the car and...
It can't be said about car racing either.

The car weighs 10-20-times what the driver weighs in most car sports and they weigh the car and driver together. That would solve the problem right there, make every bike and rider not be less than 450#, but, I think that might be a little too much and the little guys would cry about not ever winning and getting bad starts, like the tall guys are expected to put up with for the last 30 years. Face it its a small world in MX and the mfg'rs like that way, there are more bikes to sell if they fit the middle sized guys.

Injuries did not effect Charmichael, he never had to bend his legs.


Eric Geboers, Charmichael, Ward etc.. all the little guys got to train like powerlifters and had stronger tendon to bone length ratios and they don't get hurt as bad when they fall. Horse Jockies do because they are too light weight and they loose tendon mass. That is what we are asking the tall guys to do to be competative, be skinny and get broken. Emit Smith (football) is a perfrect example small and thick is good in craches, tall and skinney ends your career.
Outsider wrote:
[img]http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/483956/488156.png[/img]
Very Immature. I have a disabled sibling, were u never taught not to laugh at those less fortunate than yourself?
mr_big
Posts
27
Joined
10/15/2009
Location
AU
12/26/2009 3:11am
Moto112 wrote:
What else can you guys think of? Height and Weight equal Center of Gravity (CG), so maybe we can adjust wheelbase and bike weight to adjust...
What else can you guys think of?

Height and Weight equal Center of Gravity (CG), so maybe we can adjust wheelbase and bike weight to adjust for CG, then we can get everyone on the motor displacement that we think would be fair for their combined weight and CG.

I know its complicated, but this is for pro racing only. What would that scale look like?

We'll make 450lbs. the highest combined rider & bike weight.

CamP at 6' 6" will be at the top on height but since he weighs less than the max of 225#, he only gets part of the maximum wheelbase extension.

We'll make 225lbs rider weight the highest body weight, so it carries no ballast on the bike. But if you weight 225 and you are only 5'5" you only get about half of the wheelbase extension to make your CG equal to everyone else's.

Depending on his height every rider would get whatever; WB, weight and displacement that he needed to keep his CG , acceleration and power to weight ratio that was equal to a set formula.

No one could say that they didn't get consideration for their body type and weight and that would be so much more fair than it is now. We the fans, would get to see some incredibly close racing from the first turn to the finish.

We'd be ablt to race Danica Patrick against Shak O'Neal and they would both have a fair chance in performance on the start and everywhere else.
What national pro, or any serious mxer, is going to want their bike's wheelbase extended? What would that do to their corner speed genious?
Your idea is ridiculous.
As is any suggestion of adding weight. Just because I work on keeping my weight down, I should get penalized to make it fair for the fatasses of the world?
Go back to school, your slaughter of the english language has put me off my tea.
mr_big
Posts
27
Joined
10/15/2009
Location
AU
12/26/2009 3:15am
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better.
What gives you the right to tell anyone they're wasting their time?
You are a proper tool.
Double H
Posts
40
Joined
8/6/2009
Location
Melbourne, VIC AU
12/26/2009 3:32am
Ok, i've read enough of this!
1st its not Horse racing!
2nd yes, both have there pros and cons, but at the end of the day, the guy with the biggest heart will prevail. You state RC only had a perfect season due to his holeshots. What a load of crap! The guy simply put more into it then anyone else on the track. As another guy mentioned, technique and reaction time will help you more off the start then your size, nothing like a bit of extra weight over that tire to help it hook up!
3rd, Seen any Japanese over 6ft? didnt think so...

Now i do see valid points, but i also dont think theres much in, yes you can argue the centre of gravity point, and being bigger creates more force so when you hit the ground ect, but im a bigger framed rider (height wise not weight) and i think the biggest downer is not the height as such, its the leg length and peg to seat ratio (affecting yes, the centre of gravity and being able to grip the bike better) but as CamP says, and i agree, its not such a bad thing on rough tracks! And i also agree with the pant length comment!
Just my 2 cents...
burnside
Posts
4095
Joined
6/17/2009
Location
London US
12/26/2009 3:33am
How come Stewart is in this short ass group? Thought he was a good 6ft?

"Injuries did not effect Charmichael, he never had to bend his legs."


Funny those little stumps of his couldn't avoid blowing out ACLs eh... RV's stumps failed him recently too, and Mike Alessi seems to disagree with your theory too. The list could go on forever. As it could (both ways) with tall guys.

I think there could be something to this thread, but I think its more of an aesthetical thing. Often short dudes style just look really good (Grant for example) , this transfers to BMX too, some of the biggest style cats out there are well under 6 ft (Mike Aitken, Mike Miller, Steven Hamilton).

I think the short people don't get hurt thing is bull shit though, it would be very easy to find a list of 5'7 dudes with horrific injuries.

Why is Pourcel not mentioned in this thread? He looks like he was bred to be on a motorcycle, same with Everts (literally). Bottom line is there are obviously pros and cons to either. But to say "Big strong and/or Tall guys have no place in pro MX/SX these days" is a bit sensational and pining for attention!
12/26/2009 3:51am
mr_big wrote:
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better. What gives you the right to tell...
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better.
What gives you the right to tell anyone they're wasting their time?
You are a proper tool.
+1 Fucking rude, dude.
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/26/2009 4:02am Edited Date/Time 12/26/2009 4:12am
mr_big wrote:
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better. What gives you the right to tell...
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better.
What gives you the right to tell anyone they're wasting their time?
You are a proper tool.
+1 Fucking rude, dude.
You are both retarded no one said anything like you are quoting. There is a problem when everyone is asked to ride the same bike when the little guys have dominated for 20 years. The post is to discuss solutions, not discuss your whinning about your heros and saysing how "just more gas will win it man"!. If that were true someone other than 2 guys would win, regularly, and they are alway 5'9" tall and that bugs me about as much as having to live in a world full of numb nuts like yourself. Stewart is 5'9" on his best day, 5'8" on the others. Why else would he and Chad fit the bikes so well? They are shrimps.
sixdayguy
Posts
31
Joined
11/29/2009
Location
Battle Ground, IN US
12/26/2009 4:08am
I want to add, Who are the smoothest riders? Bailey, Lechien, Windham, D.V. Does not smoother equal less energy? The only smooth short rider I can think of is DeCoster. All the great small riders were bulldogs, Ward, Charmichael, Hannah. I think to make things equal we need to find a way to make all the riders have equal desire to win! Then things will be interesting!
Loose
Posts
901
Joined
9/12/2007
Location
Mackay AU
12/26/2009 4:10am
Moto112 wrote:
yep.

"Ridge" why would you want to be tall?

So you could get bad starts and fight your bike and loose worse?
It's lose not loose

just sayin
Moto112
Posts
31
Joined
12/25/2009
Location
Dallas, TX US
12/26/2009 4:23am
sixdayguy wrote:
I want to add, Who are the smoothest riders? Bailey, Lechien, Windham, D.V. Does not smoother equal less energy? The only smooth short rider I can...
I want to add, Who are the smoothest riders? Bailey, Lechien, Windham, D.V. Does not smoother equal less energy? The only smooth short rider I can think of is DeCoster. All the great small riders were bulldogs, Ward, Charmichael, Hannah. I think to make things equal we need to find a way to make all the riders have equal desire to win! Then things will be interesting!
You just sold my point. Smooth (tall guy) does not always equel less energy, less that ragged yes but, less than the smaller guys who looks like a billdog no, the bull dog is sitll using less energy.

Give them all equel desire.; Do that by giving them all a fair shot at winning starting with the start then the turns then getting from turn to turn then making sure they do not wear out becasue of some height difference, or weight disadvantage (to the small guys) and finally let determination give them the rest.

How many guys think they are going to win a MX/SX usually 1 , sometimes 2, a few times in history 3 or 4, the racers generally know who is going to win. The rest have a postioin in mind that they want and it aint 1st.

Change that by letting them know they have as good an opportunity as the next guy, if hey hang it out, no matter what size or wieght or anyhing else either of them might be.

If you think its that way now, then you live in coo coo land or never raced and haven't a clue land and have watched too much WWF.
nc97
Posts
688
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
US
12/26/2009 5:35am
751 wrote:
I will join ya, let me grab the cooler!!!
Yaya wrote:
Just tapped a keg, wanna join haha
751 wrote:
Sure, Whos gonna call for the beer truck when we are out? Then the popcorn truck? Then we will need a new microwave by then lol...
Sure, Whos gonna call for the beer truck when we are out? Then the popcorn truck? Then we will need a new microwave by then lol! hahahaha!!!
I'm rolling the blunt!
Cygnus
Posts
14846
Joined
8/15/2006
Location
Hanover, CO US
12/26/2009 6:07am Edited Date/Time 12/26/2009 6:11am
STFU NOOB!

Moto and hockey all all us short guys have left.

450's were made for you strong tall fat guys how much advantage do you need?
shaner708
Posts
631
Joined
5/27/2009
Location
Export, PA US
12/26/2009 6:29am
mr_big wrote:
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better. What gives you the right to tell...
You're also offensive to every tall mxer who busts his or her ass every day trying to get better.
What gives you the right to tell anyone they're wasting their time?
You are a proper tool.
+1 Fucking rude, dude.
I think hes secretly a midget and thats why he's all pumped on short dudes...
JimmyJam725
Posts
105
Joined
12/26/2009
Location
Albuquerque, NM US
12/26/2009 6:34am
I'm strong and slow......arm pump kills.
mx317
Posts
5303
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
TN US
12/26/2009 6:57am
CamP wrote:
Racing well is mostly mental. If you think you are at a disadvantage because you are tall, you go to the line already defeated.
ridge wrote:
I go to the line defeeted every time but I've had a pretty good run lately. lol
Now that is funny Chris!! More like defooted though. And who the hell is Charmichael???

Post a reply to: Big strong and/or Tall guys have no place in pro MX/SX these days

The Latest