2 strokes arent amazing

Gworm
Posts
2711
Joined
4/5/2017
Location
Monett, MO US
6/29/2023 6:23am

2 Strokes hurt MX/SX as a spectacle and 4 strokes made riding easier to get into in the consumer market.

What?

Can anyone decipher this for me?

3
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 6:23am
ripper69 wrote:
I know, I know. All of you guys irrationally love 2 strokes for some reason.  Other than sound, they kind of suck. I recently bought a...

I know, I know. All of you guys irrationally love 2 strokes for some reason. 

Other than sound, they kind of suck. I recently bought a 250 2 stroke and had a newer 450. 2 stroke was fun for about 2 weeks and for DITD. Aside from that, less power, harder to ride, more arm pump. 

2 strokes have been glorified to be better than they really are. 

Joko wrote:

What 250 2-stroke did you buy?

In the month of July, boobs are not amazing. 

*Sips bud light while watching cnn

5
1
Gravel
Posts
1780
Joined
2/22/2014
Location
Ridgecrest, CA US
6/29/2023 6:35am
JK BRO wrote:
1984 CR500 produced 60.8hp.... in 84 2023 Y450f produces 54.4  2 strokes are not only more powerful, they produce more HP and always have. You'd have...

1984 CR500 produced 60.8hp.... in 84

2023 Y450f produces 54.4

 2 strokes are not only more powerful, they produce more HP and always have. You'd have to be insane to comment before looking up statistics,

sandman768 wrote:

No way in hell an 84 Cr500 made 60hp … if you could get it to start😂

SEEMEFIRST wrote:

Remove the rag from the airbox, and tighten your intake boot.

I'll bet your close to 60.

I weighed 150-160 and could start mine. 

I was a 500 guy in the late 80s/90s when the class was dying, never dyno’ d any of my bikes but 60hp is very realistic. I rode a buddy’s 84 CR500, that thing was a rocket, not very rideable though. I was a KX guy, 86, 88, 2x 92s over 10 years, they held up pretty good for a me, I’d usually do a top end and clutch every 12-18 months. Chains, sprockets and tires were constantly changed, the power and wheelspin just destroyed them. My current KTM 500 (EXC motor in a linkage chassis) with a Vortex and a pipe is close but still not as fast as those old 500s. Much easier to ride though!

It’s no surprise that guys who grew up on 250 4t don’t like 2 strokes. Totally different rides, not nearly as forgiving and able to mask mistakes. Same thing happened way back in the day when 2 strokes got reed valve intakes, the piston port bikes would bog instantly if you let the revs drop. 
 

Is the shitshow here yet?

 

1
TeamGreen
Posts
36598
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Location
Thru-out, CA US
6/29/2023 6:35am Edited Date/Time 7/2/2023 3:57pm

My KX500 is quite amazing, actually. 
As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs. 
Oh, and, my ‘79 CR250 makes a lot of these new bikes seem like very HEAVY boat anchors. 

In fact, smokers are sooooo good that I’m thinking I need a 300 for off-roading instead of my 450.

I’m jus’ sayin’…

15
1

The Shop

6/29/2023 6:39am

Loved my YZ250 for the 2.5 years I had it, my first and only two stroke, and it lived up to the hype for me. So light and free-feeling with the lack of engine braking, but I never felt entirely comfortable coming out of corners, like it wasn’t as “planted” as how a four stroke feels. Guess that’s half the fun though!

Only got rid of it because we had our first kid last year, so I went for a new CRF250R with some more predictable power to help make sure I came home in one piece to help with dad duty, lol. Might make the switch back somewhere down the line.

2
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 6:49am
TeamGreen wrote:
My KX500 is quite amazing, actually.  As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs.  Oh, and, my...

My KX500 is quite amazing, actually. 
As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs. 
Oh, and, my ‘79 CR250 makes a lot of these new bikes seem like very HEAVY boat anchors. 

In fact, smokers are sooooo good that I’m thinking I need a 300 for off-roading instead of my 450.

I’m jus’ sayin’…

Thats not very team green of you 

1
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 6:51am
sandman768 wrote:

No way in hell an 84 Cr500 made 60hp … if you could get it to start😂

SEEMEFIRST wrote:

Remove the rag from the airbox, and tighten your intake boot.

I'll bet your close to 60.

I weighed 150-160 and could start mine. 

Gravel wrote:
I was a 500 guy in the late 80s/90s when the class was dying, never dyno’ d any of my bikes but 60hp is very realistic...

I was a 500 guy in the late 80s/90s when the class was dying, never dyno’ d any of my bikes but 60hp is very realistic. I rode a buddy’s 84 CR500, that thing was a rocket, not very rideable though. I was a KX guy, 86, 88, 2x 92s over 10 years, they held up pretty good for a me, I’d usually do a top end and clutch every 12-18 months. Chains, sprockets and tires were constantly changed, the power and wheelspin just destroyed them. My current KTM 500 (EXC motor in a linkage chassis) with a Vortex and a pipe is close but still not as fast as those old 500s. Much easier to ride though!

It’s no surprise that guys who grew up on 250 4t don’t like 2 strokes. Totally different rides, not nearly as forgiving and able to mask mistakes. Same thing happened way back in the day when 2 strokes got reed valve intakes, the piston port bikes would bog instantly if you let the revs drop. 
 

Is the shitshow here yet?

 

Happy to say this is not the shit show I was expecting. I have actually learned a few things

captmoto
Posts
5804
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4/22/2009
Location
Rancho Cucamonga, CA US
6/29/2023 6:57am
POWLEY256 wrote:
Love racing my 2stroke against 450s. Nothing more satisfying than beating a field of 450s on a 250smoker.  Anyone that doesnt find a 250 2stroke fun...

Love racing my 2stroke against 450s. Nothing more satisfying than beating a field of 450s on a 250smoker.  Anyone that doesnt find a 250 2stroke fun doesnt know how to ride one properly or just lazy. 
As far as a race bike goes the 4strokes are hands down better as they are so much easier to ride but thats what makes a 2stroke so fun! 

You need to move up a class.

Mr Happy
Posts
269
Joined
10/9/2015
Location
GB
6/29/2023 7:02am Edited Date/Time 6/29/2023 7:03am

I've owned plenty of four strokes, but I always love riding my 2003 CR250. It has always been reliable, costs very little to run, and because people pull cock stands for two strokes it will always be worth more than I paid for it. An early CRF is worth far less and will likely never really climb in value.

I'll happily admit that if two strokes were superior then Yamaha and KTM would be selling 20x more YZs and SXs, and that four strokes are a lot more user friendly.

5
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
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Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 7:13am
ripper69 wrote:
I know, I know. All of you guys irrationally love 2 strokes for some reason.  Other than sound, they kind of suck. I recently bought a...

I know, I know. All of you guys irrationally love 2 strokes for some reason. 

Other than sound, they kind of suck. I recently bought a 250 2 stroke and had a newer 450. 2 stroke was fun for about 2 weeks and for DITD. Aside from that, less power, harder to ride, more arm pump. 

2 strokes have been glorified to be better than they really are. 

Maybe you just suck at riding? 

yeah cause youre just ripping in your profile pic lmao 

2
XracerX
Posts
8
Joined
7/5/2009
Location
Livonia, MI US
6/29/2023 7:21am

I switched to 4-strokes when I got old.  That tells you something...when your reflexes and balance and stamina aren't as good, 4-strokes are a happier life.  Not a more rewarding life, just happier.  I still have a 250 2-stroke that I bust out now and then when I'm in the mood, and on days when I "have it", it's so much fun I feel like a kid again. On bad days, I feel like I might never ride again.  A 2-stroke will humble a guy. It's hard to explain and if you weren't brought up on 2-strokes, I understand how they could seem hard to ride and nothing but work. 

4
bluesmoke
Posts
185
Joined
1/30/2023
Location
Lakeworth, TX US
6/29/2023 7:24am
TeamGreen wrote:
My KX500 is quite amazing, actually.  As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs.  Oh, and, my...

My KX500 is quite amazing, actually. 
As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs. 
Oh, and, my ‘79 CR250 makes a lot of these new bikes seem like very HEAVY boat anchors. 

In fact, smokers are sooooo good that I’m thinking I need a 300 for off-roading instead of my 450.

I’m jus’ sayin’…

I have a'19 300xc and a '24 tx300. They are magical.

3
72bu
Posts
129
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6/22/2022
Location
IL US
6/29/2023 7:47am
Mr Happy wrote:
I've owned plenty of four strokes, but I always love riding my 2003 CR250. It has always been reliable, costs very little to run, and because...

I've owned plenty of four strokes, but I always love riding my 2003 CR250. It has always been reliable, costs very little to run, and because people pull cock stands for two strokes it will always be worth more than I paid for it. An early CRF is worth far less and will likely never really climb in value.

I'll happily admit that if two strokes were superior then Yamaha and KTM would be selling 20x more YZs and SXs, and that four strokes are a lot more user friendly.


Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes. 
In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are raced  although Yamaha was allowed to race a 1000 triple 4 stroke years back but it was not very competitive. 
Yamaha tried pushing only 4 stroke sleds since 2004 and failed. They just announced they will get out of the snowmobile business.They were always last in sales compared to the other manufacturers. The other manufacturers offer both 2 and 4 stroke sleds. As far as sales go the 4 stroke reached a peak of 20% and has been there for years. 
The 2 stroke technology is so far advanced in the snowmobiling world. We have direct injected sleds that produce 165HP from an 850 twin with a single pipe and the 600 twins with a single pipe are close 130 HP. These are trail, not race sleds that will go 10,000 miles without engine failures.

7
JG463
Posts
933
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Location
Stillwater, OK US
6/29/2023 7:52am
Magoofan wrote:
   

 

image-20230628111335-1

ripper69 wrote:

You do realize that stand up jetski is a SXR 160 4 stroke right? lol

Thats not an SXR. It is a Gen 2 Kawasaki X2 which I believe came with an 800cc twin 2T, 

3
kott0n
Posts
673
Joined
10/4/2016
Location
Vancouver, WA US
6/29/2023 7:57am
kott0n wrote:
CC for CC they make more hp and more torque. No way around that. Do you like higher maintenance costs and less power per CC? I...

CC for CC they make more hp and more torque. No way around that.

Do you like higher maintenance costs and less power per CC? I bet you like 4 strokes.

byke wrote:
Not really a well thought out angle. First, nobody really cares about cc's. It's a made up point. As if an awesome bike would somehow not...

Not really a well thought out angle. First, nobody really cares about cc's. It's a made up point. As if an awesome bike would somehow not be awesome because it's 250cc versus 500cc. Where is this rule written that a person's enjoyment from an item is decided by a number of cc's? As if identically performing motorcycles of 1cc and 1000cc would somehow mean something, like you'd hate the bigger or smaller on because the number casted into the cylinder makes you furious. And are motogp riders lame because their bikes are way more complex than any dirt bike? Or are their bikes lame? Unless someone is an amish farmer, they don't really have much room to talk about maintenance costs. 

If CC's didn't matter they wouldn't have to handicap the 2 strokes to make them uncompetitive. 

Obviously engine size matters when discussing power output. I realize you've never heard "There is no replacement for displacement. " Then some tool will bring up boost is the replacement. This is a terrible argument though because if you boost a small engine to reach bigger engines power levels, what happens when you boost big engines? Displacement wins again.

1
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 8:00am
Magoofan wrote:
   

 

image-20230628111335-1

ripper69 wrote:

You do realize that stand up jetski is a SXR 160 4 stroke right? lol

JG463 wrote:

Thats not an SXR. It is a Gen 2 Kawasaki X2 which I believe came with an 800cc twin 2T, 

Yep. GrapeApe already placed my foot in my mouth over that lol 

1
POWLEY256
Posts
103
Joined
3/11/2018
Location
GB
6/29/2023 8:07am
POWLEY256 wrote:
Love racing my 2stroke against 450s. Nothing more satisfying than beating a field of 450s on a 250smoker.  Anyone that doesnt find a 250 2stroke fun...

Love racing my 2stroke against 450s. Nothing more satisfying than beating a field of 450s on a 250smoker.  Anyone that doesnt find a 250 2stroke fun doesnt know how to ride one properly or just lazy. 
As far as a race bike goes the 4strokes are hands down better as they are so much easier to ride but thats what makes a 2stroke so fun! 

captmoto wrote:

You need to move up a class.

😂 I only race for fun nowadays, lucky if i get to ride motos once a month as im busy traveling riding fmx shows. 
im racing A class still at any local races i turn up too though on the 2smoker 🤷‍♂️

3
Mr Happy
Posts
269
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10/9/2015
Location
GB
6/29/2023 8:13am
72bu wrote:
Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes.  In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are...


Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes. 
In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are raced  although Yamaha was allowed to race a 1000 triple 4 stroke years back but it was not very competitive. 
Yamaha tried pushing only 4 stroke sleds since 2004 and failed. They just announced they will get out of the snowmobile business.They were always last in sales compared to the other manufacturers. The other manufacturers offer both 2 and 4 stroke sleds. As far as sales go the 4 stroke reached a peak of 20% and has been there for years. 
The 2 stroke technology is so far advanced in the snowmobiling world. We have direct injected sleds that produce 165HP from an 850 twin with a single pipe and the 600 twins with a single pipe are close 130 HP. These are trail, not race sleds that will go 10,000 miles without engine failures.

Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they died out. Racing class capacity limits didn't kill two strokes in MX. The buying public killed two strokes by buying four strokes. If the market still really wanted two strokes Honda would have a FI CR300 on sale today, the same as KTM offer, or Yamaha would sell 10x more YZ250s than YZF450s.

The simple fact is a 450 is far more civilised to ride than a 250 or 500 two stroke, less finicky and easier to care for, and that's why they eviscerated two stroke sales. Two strokes are cheaper to buy and run, but how often do you see new ones at a track? For comparison I have a YZ465 and there are times it has threatened to turn me upside down if I've dropped my guard. All the big four strokes I've ridden there are moments when I can drop my guard and not pay for it.

1
2
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 8:17am
72bu wrote:
Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes.  In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are...


Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes. 
In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are raced  although Yamaha was allowed to race a 1000 triple 4 stroke years back but it was not very competitive. 
Yamaha tried pushing only 4 stroke sleds since 2004 and failed. They just announced they will get out of the snowmobile business.They were always last in sales compared to the other manufacturers. The other manufacturers offer both 2 and 4 stroke sleds. As far as sales go the 4 stroke reached a peak of 20% and has been there for years. 
The 2 stroke technology is so far advanced in the snowmobiling world. We have direct injected sleds that produce 165HP from an 850 twin with a single pipe and the 600 twins with a single pipe are close 130 HP. These are trail, not race sleds that will go 10,000 miles without engine failures.

Mr Happy wrote:
Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they...

Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they died out. Racing class capacity limits didn't kill two strokes in MX. The buying public killed two strokes by buying four strokes. If the market still really wanted two strokes Honda would have a FI CR300 on sale today, the same as KTM offer, or Yamaha would sell 10x more YZ250s than YZF450s.

The simple fact is a 450 is far more civilised to ride than a 250 or 500 two stroke, less finicky and easier to care for, and that's why they eviscerated two stroke sales. Two strokes are cheaper to buy and run, but how often do you see new ones at a track? For comparison I have a YZ465 and there are times it has threatened to turn me upside down if I've dropped my guard. All the big four strokes I've ridden there are moments when I can drop my guard and not pay for it.

might be the best response. 

1
6/29/2023 8:17am
ripper69 wrote:
I know, I know. All of you guys irrationally love 2 strokes for some reason.  Other than sound, they kind of suck. I recently bought a...

I know, I know. All of you guys irrationally love 2 strokes for some reason. 

Other than sound, they kind of suck. I recently bought a 250 2 stroke and had a newer 450. 2 stroke was fun for about 2 weeks and for DITD. Aside from that, less power, harder to ride, more arm pump. 

2 strokes have been glorified to be better than they really are. 

Maybe you just suck at riding? 

ripper69 wrote:

yeah cause youre just ripping in your profile pic lmao 

At least I'm not riding backwards.....

2
TeamGreen
Posts
36598
Joined
11/25/2008
Location
Thru-out, CA US
6/29/2023 8:18am
TeamGreen wrote:
My KX500 is quite amazing, actually.  As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs.  Oh, and, my...

My KX500 is quite amazing, actually. 
As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs. 
Oh, and, my ‘79 CR250 makes a lot of these new bikes seem like very HEAVY boat anchors. 

In fact, smokers are sooooo good that I’m thinking I need a 300 for off-roading instead of my 450.

I’m jus’ sayin’…

ripper69 wrote:

Thats not very team green of you 

Well, the KX500 I started the post with is, indeed, an actual Team Green Built Vegas to Reno winning bike…so…I’d say it’s VERY Team Green! 
Laughing💪🏻🇺🇸🤓

4
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 8:26am
TeamGreen wrote:
My KX500 is quite amazing, actually.  As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs.  Oh, and, my...

My KX500 is quite amazing, actually. 
As is my ‘07 RM125 that carves better than any of the latest offerings from the OEMs. 
Oh, and, my ‘79 CR250 makes a lot of these new bikes seem like very HEAVY boat anchors. 

In fact, smokers are sooooo good that I’m thinking I need a 300 for off-roading instead of my 450.

I’m jus’ sayin’…

ripper69 wrote:

Thats not very team green of you 

TeamGreen wrote:
Well, the KX500 I started the post with is, indeed, an actual Team Green Built Vegas to Reno winning bike…so…I’d say it’s VERY Team Green!  💪🏻🇺🇸🤓

Well, the KX500 I started the post with is, indeed, an actual Team Green Built Vegas to Reno winning bike…so…I’d say it’s VERY Team Green! 
Laughing💪🏻🇺🇸🤓

I once again stand corrected lol thats badass

ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 8:27am

Maybe you just suck at riding? 

ripper69 wrote:

yeah cause youre just ripping in your profile pic lmao 

At least I'm not riding backwards.....

two stroke wasnt enough of a challenge so I ride it backwards

1
6/29/2023 8:34am
72bu wrote:
Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes.  In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are...


Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes. 
In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are raced  although Yamaha was allowed to race a 1000 triple 4 stroke years back but it was not very competitive. 
Yamaha tried pushing only 4 stroke sleds since 2004 and failed. They just announced they will get out of the snowmobile business.They were always last in sales compared to the other manufacturers. The other manufacturers offer both 2 and 4 stroke sleds. As far as sales go the 4 stroke reached a peak of 20% and has been there for years. 
The 2 stroke technology is so far advanced in the snowmobiling world. We have direct injected sleds that produce 165HP from an 850 twin with a single pipe and the 600 twins with a single pipe are close 130 HP. These are trail, not race sleds that will go 10,000 miles without engine failures.

Mr Happy wrote:
Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they...

Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they died out. Racing class capacity limits didn't kill two strokes in MX. The buying public killed two strokes by buying four strokes. If the market still really wanted two strokes Honda would have a FI CR300 on sale today, the same as KTM offer, or Yamaha would sell 10x more YZ250s than YZF450s.

The simple fact is a 450 is far more civilised to ride than a 250 or 500 two stroke, less finicky and easier to care for, and that's why they eviscerated two stroke sales. Two strokes are cheaper to buy and run, but how often do you see new ones at a track? For comparison I have a YZ465 and there are times it has threatened to turn me upside down if I've dropped my guard. All the big four strokes I've ridden there are moments when I can drop my guard and not pay for it.

There were exponentially more bikes sold in the 90's/early 2000's than now. In 1999 Mosier Valley 125 novice class had 3 gates. You might see 12-15 and that'd be considered a good turnout these days. 

The 125 class was killed by the 250 fart can. The sport also probably saw the biggest decline in participants from 2004-2007. Also, it's well known that Yamaha and KTM sellout on their new two strokes annually. They're not going to bring more in, as that would cut in to that precious $11k 4-fatty sales.

2
ripper69
Posts
163
Joined
5/19/2023
Location
YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 8:43am
72bu wrote:
Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes.  In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are...


Competitive racing  rules favor the 4 stroke in MX. So  the manufacturers spend money on updating 4 stroke bikes. 
In the Snocross world 600cc,2 strokes are raced  although Yamaha was allowed to race a 1000 triple 4 stroke years back but it was not very competitive. 
Yamaha tried pushing only 4 stroke sleds since 2004 and failed. They just announced they will get out of the snowmobile business.They were always last in sales compared to the other manufacturers. The other manufacturers offer both 2 and 4 stroke sleds. As far as sales go the 4 stroke reached a peak of 20% and has been there for years. 
The 2 stroke technology is so far advanced in the snowmobiling world. We have direct injected sleds that produce 165HP from an 850 twin with a single pipe and the 600 twins with a single pipe are close 130 HP. These are trail, not race sleds that will go 10,000 miles without engine failures.

Mr Happy wrote:
Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they...

Two totally different applications. The capacity line that's trotted out is a strawman arguement as 500 two strokes existed and there is a reason why they died out. Racing class capacity limits didn't kill two strokes in MX. The buying public killed two strokes by buying four strokes. If the market still really wanted two strokes Honda would have a FI CR300 on sale today, the same as KTM offer, or Yamaha would sell 10x more YZ250s than YZF450s.

The simple fact is a 450 is far more civilised to ride than a 250 or 500 two stroke, less finicky and easier to care for, and that's why they eviscerated two stroke sales. Two strokes are cheaper to buy and run, but how often do you see new ones at a track? For comparison I have a YZ465 and there are times it has threatened to turn me upside down if I've dropped my guard. All the big four strokes I've ridden there are moments when I can drop my guard and not pay for it.

There were exponentially more bikes sold in the 90's/early 2000's than now. In 1999 Mosier Valley 125 novice class had 3 gates. You might see 12-15...

There were exponentially more bikes sold in the 90's/early 2000's than now. In 1999 Mosier Valley 125 novice class had 3 gates. You might see 12-15 and that'd be considered a good turnout these days. 

The 125 class was killed by the 250 fart can. The sport also probably saw the biggest decline in participants from 2004-2007. Also, it's well known that Yamaha and KTM sellout on their new two strokes annually. They're not going to bring more in, as that would cut in to that precious $11k 4-fatty sales.

Would be interested where you got these stats from considering every brand reported record sales in 2020/2021

2
Goldmember
Posts
671
Joined
12/23/2021
Location
Tel Aviv IL
6/29/2023 8:46am
kott0n wrote:
If CC's didn't matter they wouldn't have to handicap the 2 strokes to make them uncompetitive.  Obviously engine size matters when discussing power output. I realize...

If CC's didn't matter they wouldn't have to handicap the 2 strokes to make them uncompetitive. 

Obviously engine size matters when discussing power output. I realize you've never heard "There is no replacement for displacement. " Then some tool will bring up boost is the replacement. This is a terrible argument though because if you boost a small engine to reach bigger engines power levels, what happens when you boost big engines? Displacement wins again.

Silly argument.

Two strokes fire twice as often.  A YZ250 compared on that basis is a 500, so 11% larger than a 450F.

The smokers are lighter (or should be) and have a lot less moving parts as well.

4
6/29/2023 9:16am
kott0n wrote:
If CC's didn't matter they wouldn't have to handicap the 2 strokes to make them uncompetitive.  Obviously engine size matters when discussing power output. I realize...

If CC's didn't matter they wouldn't have to handicap the 2 strokes to make them uncompetitive. 

Obviously engine size matters when discussing power output. I realize you've never heard "There is no replacement for displacement. " Then some tool will bring up boost is the replacement. This is a terrible argument though because if you boost a small engine to reach bigger engines power levels, what happens when you boost big engines? Displacement wins again.

Goldmember wrote:
Silly argument. Two strokes fire twice as often.  A YZ250 compared on that basis is a 500, so 11% larger than a 450F. The smokers are...

Silly argument.

Two strokes fire twice as often.  A YZ250 compared on that basis is a 500, so 11% larger than a 450F.

The smokers are lighter (or should be) and have a lot less moving parts as well.

Bench pressing 150 pounds twice doesn't mean it's equal to benching 300 pounds once. Talk about a silly argument. 

10
JG463
Posts
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Stillwater, OK US
6/29/2023 9:18am
ripper69 wrote:

Yep. GrapeApe already placed my foot in my mouth over that lol 

Yep! They're bad ass. I have a 92 X2 with a 750 in it. Wasn't trying to sound like an ass just pointing out a cool 2T ski lol. 

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ripper69
Posts
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5/19/2023
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YoureTheOnly, TN US
6/29/2023 9:20am
ripper69 wrote:

Yep. GrapeApe already placed my foot in my mouth over that lol 

JG463 wrote:
Yep! They're bad ass. I have a 92 X2 with a 750 in it. Wasn't trying to sound like an ass just pointing out a cool...

Yep! They're bad ass. I have a 92 X2 with a 750 in it. Wasn't trying to sound like an ass just pointing out a cool 2T ski lol. 

No worries at all man. I am happy to admit when I am wrong. Dont like to admit how often tho.. lol

But in all seriousness I like being educated by those that know more. I appreciate it 

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