Moving rear wheel forward vs raising forks

I put on some new chain/sprockets, I went longer this time with the chain, second to last line, just to see how it’d feel. I don’t like the turning I’ve lost. Is removing a link, to get the wheel a bit more Forward the way to go, or should I just raise the forks a bit. Do both of these have the same effect? My Forks are about a dimes width from flush 

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lumpy790
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6/15/2023 12:45pm
I put on some new chain/sprockets, I went longer this time with the chain, second to last line, just to see how it’d feel. I don’t...

I put on some new chain/sprockets, I went longer this time with the chain, second to last line, just to see how it’d feel. I don’t like the turning I’ve lost. Is removing a link, to get the wheel a bit more Forward the way to go, or should I just raise the forks a bit. Do both of these have the same effect? My Forks are about a dimes width from flush 

2 different animals.

Moving the Forks up in the clamps (more sticking out the top) does more for quicker turning.

Longer wheelbase is better for stability.

1
6/15/2023 3:41pm
I put on some new chain/sprockets, I went longer this time with the chain, second to last line, just to see how it’d feel. I don’t...

I put on some new chain/sprockets, I went longer this time with the chain, second to last line, just to see how it’d feel. I don’t like the turning I’ve lost. Is removing a link, to get the wheel a bit more Forward the way to go, or should I just raise the forks a bit. Do both of these have the same effect? My Forks are about a dimes width from flush 

lumpy790 wrote:

2 different animals.

Moving the Forks up in the clamps (more sticking out the top) does more for quicker turning.

Longer wheelbase is better for stability.

I meant since I have the wheel so far back should I bring it in a bit by removing a link on the chain, or just raise my forks. Does doing one or the other accomplish the same thing, which would be a bit sharper turning 

skypig
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6/15/2023 10:07pm
I meant since I have the wheel so far back should I bring it in a bit by removing a link on the chain, or just...

I meant since I have the wheel so far back should I bring it in a bit by removing a link on the chain, or just raise my forks. Does doing one or the other accomplish the same thing, which would be a bit sharper turning 

Interesting Q. Looking forward to some knowledgeable answers.

Both moving the rear wheel forward, and sliding a little more fork tube up should “speed up” the steering, at the expense of stability. But in very different ways.

As an aside: moving the wheel forward will reduce the leverage the wheel has on the shock. Making the spring feel a touch harder, and increasing the effect of Comp/Reb damping. At the very least you will need to reset your sag.

Change one thing, many other things change.

crc245
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6/15/2023 10:31pm

1) What bike?

2) I’d raise the forks and test a few free ‘fixes’ first…Play with the fork height but don’t forget that moving the wheel back altered your rear suspension baseline with the extra leverage, as skypig noted. Should have rechecked sag and more than likely added a bit of HS to compensate (at the very least). 

 

Keep us updated!

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FGR01
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Fantasy
6/16/2023 8:01am

Some people will tell you that sliding the rear wheel back actually can improve cornering.  Yes, it lengthens the wheelbase which, theoretically diminishes cornering.  But it also can alter where the CG of the bike is and place more weight on the front wheel.  Also, as the wheel goes rearwards, the back of the bike gets taller, altering the steering geometry (making the fork rake steeper).  How much you'd actually notice any of this in practice, well you'd have to test to find out.

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Teej317
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6/16/2023 8:30am

Love this topic. I’ve been wondering these things myself. 

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crc245
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6/16/2023 9:13am
FGR01 wrote:
Some people will tell you that sliding the rear wheel back actually can improve cornering.  Yes, it lengthens the wheelbase which, theoretically diminishes cornering.  But it...

Some people will tell you that sliding the rear wheel back actually can improve cornering.  Yes, it lengthens the wheelbase which, theoretically diminishes cornering.  But it also can alter where the CG of the bike is and place more weight on the front wheel.  Also, as the wheel goes rearwards, the back of the bike gets taller, altering the steering geometry (making the fork rake steeper).  How much you'd actually notice any of this in practice, well you'd have to test to find out.

Great point: With a fixed crank position and only a few mm's front to back movement with the front wheel (offset clamps or even the factory means of differing races), sliding the rear wheel back to maximum length not only increases stability, but also front wheel weight (once proper shock adjustments have been made, of course)...Love these little ways to fine tune any given bike!

Teej317
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6/16/2023 9:37am
FGR01 wrote:
Some people will tell you that sliding the rear wheel back actually can improve cornering.  Yes, it lengthens the wheelbase which, theoretically diminishes cornering.  But it...

Some people will tell you that sliding the rear wheel back actually can improve cornering.  Yes, it lengthens the wheelbase which, theoretically diminishes cornering.  But it also can alter where the CG of the bike is and place more weight on the front wheel.  Also, as the wheel goes rearwards, the back of the bike gets taller, altering the steering geometry (making the fork rake steeper).  How much you'd actually notice any of this in practice, well you'd have to test to find out.

crc245 wrote:
Great point: With a fixed crank position and only a few mm's front to back movement with the front wheel (offset clamps or even the factory...

Great point: With a fixed crank position and only a few mm's front to back movement with the front wheel (offset clamps or even the factory means of differing races), sliding the rear wheel back to maximum length not only increases stability, but also front wheel weight (once proper shock adjustments have been made, of course)...Love these little ways to fine tune any given bike!

I forgot where I heard it and maybe it's old industry talk, but I remember hearing that these teams always shot for a certain measurement when it came to wheelbase length. Even looking at factory bikes today, the rear wheel is slammed back as far as it will go on most bikes. I had a 114 chain on my Yz 250 and went to a bigger sprocket, which brought the rear wheel forward. Can't say I noticed much of a difference. Just order a 116 chain to get the rear wheel further back. I think I feel more of a difference with turning when I raise/lower the forks.

skyrebel88
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6/16/2023 10:06am

my experience when I had my chain length short was once the turn was initiated/ mid turn the bike could easily do donuts or on loose dirt turn too much. Bike is a 19 250sxf btw. once the chain grew mid turn was alot smoother and less reactive, the bike would hold the or arch of the turn i was trying to take. Changing the fork height to me feels like it really just helps initial turn in and straight away maneuvering. This would be my description of comparing the two changes and the feeling I got with them. 

There are other sensations to describe but I just wanted to answer the original posters question. 

Gravel
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6/16/2023 10:29am

Try raising your forks a line or two. I don’t like the light front wheel feeling of a shorter wheelbase, it makes the bike twitchy but doesn’t have a planted feel at the front. 

6/17/2023 12:43am

This may sound a bit odd, but it's the difference between steering and turning. Lowering the front/raising the rear makes the bike steer faster. Lengthening the wheelbase makes it turn slower. Kinda hard to explain. Steering is from the front wheel being leaned over which makes it follow an arc, turning is determined by how much the bike rotates as it is leaned over.

1
6/17/2023 7:48am
DEATH_INC. wrote:
This may sound a bit odd, but it's the difference between steering and turning. Lowering the front/raising the rear makes the bike steer faster. Lengthening the...

This may sound a bit odd, but it's the difference between steering and turning. Lowering the front/raising the rear makes the bike steer faster. Lengthening the wheelbase makes it turn slower. Kinda hard to explain. Steering is from the front wheel being leaned over which makes it follow an arc, turning is determined by how much the bike rotates as it is leaned over.

I think I know what you’re saying 

Gravel
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6/17/2023 3:02pm
DEATH_INC. wrote:
This may sound a bit odd, but it's the difference between steering and turning. Lowering the front/raising the rear makes the bike steer faster. Lengthening the...

This may sound a bit odd, but it's the difference between steering and turning. Lowering the front/raising the rear makes the bike steer faster. Lengthening the wheelbase makes it turn slower. Kinda hard to explain. Steering is from the front wheel being leaned over which makes it follow an arc, turning is determined by how much the bike rotates as it is leaned over.

Agree with this. I like a stretched out wheelbase, then raise / lower the forks for steering feel. 

Leeham
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6/17/2023 3:56pm

I will adjust my fork height day to day when I ride. My speed will vary a tiny bit and along with that my comfort. I don't dwell to much on wheelbase/rear wheel distance. Its easier for me move forks and feel/see the difference.

6/17/2023 9:28pm

Moving the rear axle you hv to reset the sag. I moved the axle all the way back for stability on a fast sand track for the 2nd moto. I pulled a big hole shot & in the 1st corner . The front end pushed big time . 98 rm125

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