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Well yeah, I’m sure all 4 of them worked extremely hard to earn their goals, but even you have to admit that 2011 RV has some good luck go his way and RD had some dumb luck go his with the chain(SX) and fuel(MX)! And the “you make your own luck” is bullshit in this case. 2012 and 2013 RV was the man though, 2014 I think James was faster, but RV was more consistent.
Side note: RD probably lost over $2M over some dumb mechanicals! I’d be pissed
Can't believe this was even a question. The Ryan's were far better than James. Dungey beat Stewart in every championship they ever raced together. And James was 24 in Ryan's rookie year so don't give me, past the prime stuff. Villo obviously won out between him and RD.
Conversely, Eli never beat Dungey. So I don't see how JS and ET can be compared to the Ryans.
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Just curious how you get to this? These guys actually raced each other so we don't have to guess who was better. Dungey beat James every time they ever raced, and I think Eli maybe finished ahead of Dunge once maybe never.. How does RD come in last?
Go watch bar to bar 2009. RVs rookie year and tell me how he did against a healthy James.
Went down the stats rabbit hole for fun. I’ll post the rest this weekend…the trend lines for their careers are interesting and discovered some other interesting stats during the process. For example, James won 40 of his first 50 AMA Pro races. Next closest was RC at 26. Nuts
Under my criteria, I go RV, JS7, Eli and then RD. All are amazing. To me, of these guys listed, RV is the complete package. Raw speed, the mental toughness, the fitness etc. He knew how to win Championships. He could beat guys however you wanted to do it. Just a shame that he retired early.
This is very interesting. Please share more when you can.
When comparing people who raced each other, you don't have to guess at who was better. The reason we have racing is to figure out who is better.
James, as amazing as he was, is wildly overrated. And Ryan Dungey, as amazing he was, is wildly underrated. Here's the actual head-to-head stats.
Below, Series Raced = Championships raced against each other.
The first sentence of this thread: "Not simply who has more titles or more wins. Just who do you 'think' is the best rider/racer?"
Then followed by 7 pages of jackrabbits talking about wins and titles.
JS7 is the best, no question. RC was already the GOAT before James moved up to 250s and everyone knew that James could beat RC. It took him like 3 tries to beat RC in a race.
Gawddamn, somebody with some common sense! I was one of those jackrabbits, when I should have just said this!😂
This is the type of thread for people who didn't race each other. If people raced each other, you don't have to think. You just look at the results.
Imagine, racing a guy 8 times, not races but championships, and beating him every single time, then someone comes up to you and says, "yeah well he beat everybody before you got here and just looked so good, so I think he's better than you." You would look at that guy like he was an idiot.
Dude, ever heard of “context”. Every season needs context, take 2010 SX, I assume that year was included in your skewed numbers? Round 1 A1 James was in 2nd place 3-4 seconds behind Dungey just riding around, then with 2-3 laps to go he put on the afterburner and blitzed by Dungey for the win! Round 2, someone lands on JS off a triple and breaks his wrist, he’s out for the season. Even though RD won the championship, I don’t think he was a better rider than James.
Ok. How about the other 7 seasons?
And what skewed numbers? That's the results.
If you go with the times. The current rider with the most wins would be the best. Because everyone on the gate tries harder and gets faster than the previous year. It comes down to who wants it more. Tomac is the man right now. NOT for All Time. But he's definitely on Mt.Rushmore after last years Double Championships.
James vs RD raced 12 series? Was it that many? But nevermind, not going down this rabbit hole again.
This whole thread was an opinion based question anyways. I voted James.
And lets be honest, even JS7 said it himself, he wants wins. His goal was the 72, not the 7
Pit Row
You don't remember this race very well. Yes, James caught and past him. But 450 "Rookie" Ryan Dungey caught right back up to James before sliding out 3 turns before the finish. He by no means blew Dungey's doors off.
https://youtu.be/dH4ytmPmsgo
Yep, just like I remembered and explained it. Looked like a pretty blitzy pass to me and James won. Never said he won by a minute. James did what he needed to do. Watch the entire race and you’ll get more “context” and not just the highlights. Even Ricky said it looked like James could catch RD at will, but was being patient. None the less, RD rode a great race, especially as a rookie. My point was the stat guy was counting this year between James and Dungey in his stats when James only raced one round.
Geez I’m tired of posting in this thread 😖
James' career is a bit heartbreaking if you really stop and think about it.
I realize this sounds a bit absurd on the surface given he had a perfect 24-0 outdoor season, was 2nd all time SX wins (now 3rd) and won multiple championships. I just remember at A1 one year him coming out in opening ceremonies and it was after coming back from his suspension. It was actually a little emotional. Cinderella story written all over it, except it just never happened. I forget the details of all of the incomplete seasons he had, but it seemed like it was one after another. Plus, we all are aware of the way he retired. It's just crazy to think about how he was arguably one of the best EVER, but he left so much on the table that his legacy is more based on what he could do on a bike, rather than his actually achievements. (Again, not ignoring what he did achieve)
I would love to see a well-made documentary on his career one day.
Yea from 05-10 his dominance was undeniable. Dude went 3 for 6 as a rookie on a two stroke against Ricky and Chad. 2008, 2010 you could add another 15 wins easily, probably more.
Was downhill 2011 onward. Call it the reverse cylinder deal, sx only, the ryans, bubbas world effect or all of the above but from then on he ONLY won 13 SX races in 4 seasons and the monster cup against the best riders in the world. Its funny how people who watched his era in real time think man he really underachieved ha.
I’m a Stewperfan but the more time passes i appreciate RV’s run more than I did when it was happening. In those days I just wanted to see James on a green or orange bike
Racecraft wise I’d go James and RV over the rest because they could make quick passes on fast guys. Feel like Dungey could catch anyone but then follow forever. James was creative in finding lines and didn’t hold himself coming through the pack. Same reason he busted his ass a few good times
Sometimes I am too hard on Tomac for his 'weird' rides. As someone else said, it could be his 'weird' rides are rides he may have crashed out on if he wasn't smart enough to back it down. That is part of the overall concept of who is a better rider/racer I think.
Tomac really seems to know his limits on any given day. They may only seem like 'weird' rides to us and not him.
Of course, Dungey was the King of riding smart although RV2 was pretty good at it as well actually. They just both quit too soon.
Wins and titles don`t matter is easily the dumbest comment I have read on Vital and they set the bar pretty high with dumb shit on here!
Exactly, record books exist for a reason, stats are stats, opinions are like assholes, we all have them!
How often did RV or Dungey get beaten by JB51?
No one is saying they don’t matter. The stats don’t lie. OP asked to think outside of that for the purposes of this thread.
Truly is insane to think about.
05 and 06, not beating Carmichael is what it is. That’s tough. But in 07, he could have just rode 80% after Carmichael left the series and cruised to the championship. He didn’t. And it cost him 07 MX and 08 SX. Then goes 24-0 and then, insanely, went SX only right in the middle of his prime dominance. That had never been done before by a rider who was also great outdoors. A Stewart riding both SX and MX his entire career, I believe we’d have had some insanely epic battles from 09-13 with the Ryans. We really only got to see that a little in 12 and 13 outdoors, and clearly a Stewart that wasn’t as good as his Kawi days indoors. SX only in the middle of his prime derailed his entire career. And as you said, it was still extremely successful.
No, the OP asked who do you think was the best? If titles and wins don`t matter, what is the point of racing? Nobody races to be anything other than the winner. Best is the guy who wins the most and anybody who says otherwise, is a fan of the guy who didnt. If the question was asked about who you liked the most, had the most style, or was the most popular, this would be a very different thread. Every JS7 thread turns into a fanboy session about why the guys who won more races and have more titles arent as good as JS7. This is a old, tired argument, IMO.
Post a reply to: Who is Better? Tomac, JS7, RD5 or RV2?