Legends @ their peak speed. Who wins?

mxb2
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2/24/2023 3:25pm
DUCati227 wrote:

I wasn't a fan. But, I can not think of anyone faster than James. Not even close.

mxb2 wrote:
Rc won more ,the most , when needed
DUCati227 wrote:
I was always an RC fan as well. But, there is ZERO doubt James was faster. RC has even admitted James was the driving force in...

I was always an RC fan as well. But, there is ZERO doubt James was faster. RC has even admitted James was the driving force in his retirement.

I'd take Ricky for the championship. But, James at any single race.

Rc wd win when its needed. One race or 150. When its on the line. He comes thru. Imo
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Sully
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2/24/2023 3:26pm

I know the OP used '07 RC v. Stew, but I would change Stew's to '14 Toronto and say no one else would be able to touch him. Hell, he beat four guys on that list during that race anyway.

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JustMX
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2/24/2023 4:05pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 4:06pm

Why is Roczen in the picture? But not RJ, Ward, Hannah, Glover and Stanton.

studworx wrote:

You seriously believe there’s been no progression in this sport?

 

They would get beat by current amateurs

Please just stop.

watching ancient youtube videos of these legends does not do their intensity and competitiveness justice.

Put one of the amateurs you have so much faith in on a 1985 bike against ward, johnson, bailey, o'mara. lechien and barnett on a mid 80s sx track and you would find them curled up in a fetal position in the back of their loungeless box van.

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Dingleberrycerealwithbullmilk
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2/24/2023 4:08pm

I'm not sure, but I swear I've heard that "Justin Cooper is the future" more times than I can count.

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The Shop

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2/24/2023 4:27pm

I love these off season threads.👍

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studworx
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2/24/2023 4:35pm

Why is Roczen in the picture? But not RJ, Ward, Hannah, Glover and Stanton.

studworx wrote:

You seriously believe there’s been no progression in this sport?

 

They would get beat by current amateurs

JustMX wrote:
Please just stop. watching ancient youtube videos of these legends does not do their intensity and competitiveness justice. Put one of the amateurs you have so...

Please just stop.

watching ancient youtube videos of these legends does not do their intensity and competitiveness justice.

Put one of the amateurs you have so much faith in on a 1985 bike against ward, johnson, bailey, o'mara. lechien and barnett on a mid 80s sx track and you would find them curled up in a fetal position in the back of their loungeless box van.

That’s not the question at hand. It’s take them in their peak form and line them up. You realize the SX tracks were NOTHING like they race now correct?

once again, they wouldn’t win the SX futures class this weekend. 
 

Sports PROGRESS. Progression is natural in all competitive sports. If nothing progressed, gymnastics would still be a handstand. 

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TDeath21
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2/24/2023 4:42pm

I don’t really get the progression argument for debates like these. Of course the sport has progressed. There’s really no point in arguing for anyone pre 2015 if we are going to use progression as a huge factor.

drok577
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2/24/2023 4:43pm

2017 Ken Roczen is the most over hyped rider of all time. Everyone only remembers round 1. Round 2 Dungey was just as fast, and starting round 4 Tomac was way faster than Dungey

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studworx
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2/24/2023 4:44pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 4:46pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I don’t really get the progression argument for debates like these. Of course the sport has progressed. There’s really no point in arguing for anyone pre...

I don’t really get the progression argument for debates like these. Of course the sport has progressed. There’s really no point in arguing for anyone pre 2015 if we are going to use progression as a huge factor.

It needs to be a factor. The old guy don’t even have modern technique. It would be a disaster on a modern SX track. The question is at their peak who would win a SX race tomorrow. Promise you it isn’t Bob Hannah lol

2015? Nah. You can go back to the beginning of the 4 stroke era. Tracks were very similar. Bikes were within range. 
 

RC proved he can hang when he did practice at Aus X a few years ago. Years into retirement. 
 

TDeath21
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2/24/2023 4:48pm
TDeath21 wrote:
I don’t really get the progression argument for debates like these. Of course the sport has progressed. There’s really no point in arguing for anyone pre...

I don’t really get the progression argument for debates like these. Of course the sport has progressed. There’s really no point in arguing for anyone pre 2015 if we are going to use progression as a huge factor.

studworx wrote:
It needs to be a factor. The old guy don’t even have modern technique. It would be a disaster on a modern SX track. The question...

It needs to be a factor. The old guy don’t even have modern technique. It would be a disaster on a modern SX track. The question is at their peak who would win a SX race tomorrow. Promise you it isn’t Bob Hannah lol

2015? Nah. You can go back to the beginning of the 4 stroke era. Tracks were very similar. Bikes were within range. 
 

RC proved he can hang when he did practice at Aus X a few years ago. Years into retirement. 
 

And if you say it does need a factor, then this whole debate is pointless. None of the older guys have a chance if you transport them exactly as they are, on the equipment they used, and threw them on a 23 track. That’s why it’s silly to have progression of the sport be a factor at all in these fun bench race debates. 

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studworx
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2/24/2023 4:51pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 4:54pm
TDeath21 wrote:
And if you say it does need a factor, then this whole debate is pointless. None of the older guys have a chance if you transport...

And if you say it does need a factor, then this whole debate is pointless. None of the older guys have a chance if you transport them exactly as they are, on the equipment they used, and threw them on a 23 track. That’s why it’s silly to have progression of the sport be a factor at all in these fun bench race debates. 

Race happens on modern equipment on a modern sx track. 
 

Doesn’t matter the equipment it’s on, they have technique from the 70’s. How can you in any world say an 80’s rider would win? 
 

If it’s someone outside the 4 stroke era it’s silly. 
 

Would a 1920’s baseball player be able to compete in the world series this year? No. They wouldn’t even be a good high school player

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enketchum
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2/24/2023 4:54pm

How long is the race? Aldon's riders could certainly race at full speed than riders could before his training program 

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TDeath21
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2/24/2023 4:57pm
TDeath21 wrote:
And if you say it does need a factor, then this whole debate is pointless. None of the older guys have a chance if you transport...

And if you say it does need a factor, then this whole debate is pointless. None of the older guys have a chance if you transport them exactly as they are, on the equipment they used, and threw them on a 23 track. That’s why it’s silly to have progression of the sport be a factor at all in these fun bench race debates. 

studworx wrote:
Race happens on modern equipment on a modern sx track.    Doesn’t matter the equipment it’s on, they have technique from the 70’s. How can you...

Race happens on modern equipment on a modern sx track. 
 

Doesn’t matter the equipment it’s on, they have technique from the 70’s. How can you in any world say an 80’s rider would win? 
 

If it’s someone outside the 4 stroke era it’s silly. 
 

Would a 1920’s baseball player be able to compete in the world series this year? No. They wouldn’t even be a good high school player

You are literally just proving my point. Yes their technique isn’t up to today’s standards either. That was part of my “exactly as they are” comment. That’s why it’s silly to even consider progression. It just eliminates 90% of the riders to ever compete immediately. We might as well just say who is the best rider of the last ten years and leave it at that. 

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studworx
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2/24/2023 5:02pm
TDeath21 wrote:
You are literally just proving my point. Yes their technique isn’t up to today’s standards either. That was part of my “exactly as they are” comment...

You are literally just proving my point. Yes their technique isn’t up to today’s standards either. That was part of my “exactly as they are” comment. That’s why it’s silly to even consider progression. It just eliminates 90% of the riders to ever compete immediately. We might as well just say who is the best rider of the last ten years and leave it at that. 

You are also proving my point. Nobody from 30 years ago is in the conversation. And they shouldn’t be. 
 

There’s literally like 10 names that can be mentioned

Saying Hannah would win is as credible as saying my uncle would win. Because if he was born 25 years ago and trained his whole life there’s a chance

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-MAVERICK-
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2/24/2023 5:12pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 5:51pm

Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior?

We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats.

All things being equal, I think McGrath could get it done. He's the King of SX for a reason. 

Of the older generation riders, he's got plenty of 4-stroke experience, so practically no learning curve and the tracks haven't evolved much since he last raced. He also raced it in Supercross for one race. He finished 4th behind James, RC, and Reed. He was also 34 years old, and it's probably safe to say that he was not training as much as in his championship years.

I'm sure some tech nerd can make a virtual reality of this race happen. Plug in all the stats (all their SX race finishes, win margins, injuries, time out, etc.) and let the computer do its thing.   

Edit: Typo

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studworx
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2/24/2023 5:20pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 5:22pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior? We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats. All things being equal, I think McGrath could...

Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior?

We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats.

All things being equal, I think McGrath could get it done. He's the King of SX for a reason. 

Of the older generation riders, he's got plenty of 4-stroke experience, so practically no learning curve and the tracks haven't evolved much since he last raced. He also raced it in Supercross for one race. He finished 4th behind James, RC, and Reed. He was also 34 years old, and it's probably safe to say that he was not training as much as in his championship years.

I'm sure some tech nerd can make a virtual reality of this race happen. Plug in all the stats (all their SX race finishes, win margins, injuries, time out, etc.) and let the computer do its thing.   

Edit: Typo

His riding style is so far off modern riders. These guys are staying so low it’s unbelievable. There’s so many improvements in riding styles even since MC that would stop him from competing. 
 

A 355 Ferrari was a fantastic car. In no circumstance is it beating a 488 around any track with the same driver. Things progress. No replacement for time. Everyone would be rich if they had 1000 years to do it. 300hp was unheard of back in the 80’s. My Pickup truck has more than that today. 

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2/24/2023 5:30pm

Swap out Roczen for David Bailey, arguably the smoothest fast guy there ever was. 

 

I'd put my money on JS7 if we are talking about speed. 

DB505
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2/24/2023 5:37pm

Hard to say! Cuz it’s like apples to oranges! Times are different bikes are different, riders are different! But I’d lean towards RC

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creature654
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2/24/2023 5:47pm

Webb, because he’s not scared of any of them and will be relentless to the bitter end.

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RaceFace232
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2/24/2023 5:47pm
CDA331 wrote:
Stewart- and everyone on the line would admit it   Carmichael said that a dozen time in recent months that he could only hope for a...

Stewart- and everyone on the line would admit it

 

Carmichael said that a dozen time in recent months that he could only hope for a mistake by James because he wasn’t beating him outright 

Yes he said something along those lines on Stew’s podcast.  He said there was no point in trying to go faster because he knew James would just go faster.  What he didn’t say is how by doing this he knew James would lawn dart.  Fsct is RC said he doesn’t think he ever passed Stewart by going faster  which we’ve all seen him do plenty of times.  So take  from those comments whst you feel like, we’ve seen him beat James more than the other way around.

-MAVERICK-
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2/24/2023 5:52pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior? We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats. All things being equal, I think McGrath could...

Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior?

We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats.

All things being equal, I think McGrath could get it done. He's the King of SX for a reason. 

Of the older generation riders, he's got plenty of 4-stroke experience, so practically no learning curve and the tracks haven't evolved much since he last raced. He also raced it in Supercross for one race. He finished 4th behind James, RC, and Reed. He was also 34 years old, and it's probably safe to say that he was not training as much as in his championship years.

I'm sure some tech nerd can make a virtual reality of this race happen. Plug in all the stats (all their SX race finishes, win margins, injuries, time out, etc.) and let the computer do its thing.   

Edit: Typo

studworx wrote:
His riding style is so far off modern riders. These guys are staying so low it’s unbelievable. There’s so many improvements in riding styles even since...

His riding style is so far off modern riders. These guys are staying so low it’s unbelievable. There’s so many improvements in riding styles even since MC that would stop him from competing. 
 

A 355 Ferrari was a fantastic car. In no circumstance is it beating a 488 around any track with the same driver. Things progress. No replacement for time. Everyone would be rich if they had 1000 years to do it. 300hp was unheard of back in the 80’s. My Pickup truck has more than that today. 

"All things being equal..."

image-20230224205205-1

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motokiwi
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2/24/2023 5:52pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 5:53pm

KX125 James Stewart. The fastest man to ever ride a dirtbike. Ever

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RaceFace232
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2/24/2023 5:54pm
studworx wrote:

You seriously believe there’s been no progression in this sport?

 

They would get beat by current amateurs

JustMX wrote:
Please just stop. watching ancient youtube videos of these legends does not do their intensity and competitiveness justice. Put one of the amateurs you have so...

Please just stop.

watching ancient youtube videos of these legends does not do their intensity and competitiveness justice.

Put one of the amateurs you have so much faith in on a 1985 bike against ward, johnson, bailey, o'mara. lechien and barnett on a mid 80s sx track and you would find them curled up in a fetal position in the back of their loungeless box van.

studworx wrote:
That’s not the question at hand. It’s take them in their peak form and line them up. You realize the SX tracks were NOTHING like they...

That’s not the question at hand. It’s take them in their peak form and line them up. You realize the SX tracks were NOTHING like they race now correct?

once again, they wouldn’t win the SX futures class this weekend. 
 

Sports PROGRESS. Progression is natural in all competitive sports. If nothing progressed, gymnastics would still be a handstand. 

Lol how ridiculous.  And Michael Jordan wouldn’t be able to make an NBA team in 2023 if he was 25 years old right now.

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SoCalMX70
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2/24/2023 5:56pm
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior? We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats. All things being equal, I think McGrath could...

Has anyone ever watched the show, Deadliest Warrior?

We need a version of it with all the SX/MX greats.

All things being equal, I think McGrath could get it done. He's the King of SX for a reason. 

Of the older generation riders, he's got plenty of 4-stroke experience, so practically no learning curve and the tracks haven't evolved much since he last raced. He also raced it in Supercross for one race. He finished 4th behind James, RC, and Reed. He was also 34 years old, and it's probably safe to say that he was not training as much as in his championship years.

I'm sure some tech nerd can make a virtual reality of this race happen. Plug in all the stats (all their SX race finishes, win margins, injuries, time out, etc.) and let the computer do its thing.   

Edit: Typo

studworx wrote:
His riding style is so far off modern riders. These guys are staying so low it’s unbelievable. There’s so many improvements in riding styles even since...

His riding style is so far off modern riders. These guys are staying so low it’s unbelievable. There’s so many improvements in riding styles even since MC that would stop him from competing. 
 

A 355 Ferrari was a fantastic car. In no circumstance is it beating a 488 around any track with the same driver. Things progress. No replacement for time. Everyone would be rich if they had 1000 years to do it. 300hp was unheard of back in the 80’s. My Pickup truck has more than that today. 

An argument could be made that supercross tracks have REGRESSED since the mid-2000s. Less dirt, less peaky jumps and rhythms, and mostly cookie cutter ever since. Though, I do give some credit to 2023... This is the first year in ages where I've been impressed by a couple tracks and their difficulty. Is it just me, or is there more dirt than usual?

Anyway, for this discussion to be any fun you have to picture these guys all coming up at the same time on equal equipment, tracks, etc., and take a lot of "non-statistical" data into consideration. That's the fun of bench racing.

Or, we can just revert to the stats again... MC is the undisputed King of Supercross. It isn't even close.

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Mick 22
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2/24/2023 6:01pm Edited Date/Time 2/24/2023 6:02pm

Speed -----> JS

In no particular order afterwards: RC, Stephan, Herlings, RV, Antonio, Hannah, RJ, Gajser, Eli.

Back in the day when I was certain that the Hurricaine was the fastest guy on two wheels, guys like Howerton and Tripes could run with and at times past him.

 

With apologies to the King of SX, SX is NOT MX

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CPR
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2/24/2023 6:01pm

McGrath is the the King of SX, he wins.

But interesting fact; there’s only one rider on the OP’s gate that has won against every other rider on the line……

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studworx
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2/24/2023 6:04pm

Ok so take the guy, erase everything about them except name, give him a modern fast guys capabilities. Got it. So in other words, all modern fast guys beat the old era’s riders lol

So back to the realistic 8-10 guys…

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studworx
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2/24/2023 6:06pm
CPR wrote:
McGrath is the the King of SX, he wins. But interesting fact; there’s only one rider on the OP’s gate that has won against every other...

McGrath is the the King of SX, he wins.

But interesting fact; there’s only one rider on the OP’s gate that has won against every other rider on the line……

2. JS7 and Reed. 
 

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OldPro277
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2/24/2023 6:09pm
studworx wrote:

You seriously believe there’s been no progression in this sport?

 

They would get beat by current amateurs

Of all the ridiculous statements made on Vital in the 14 years I’ve been here ( and there has been a ton)  THAT is without a doubt the most ignorant statement ever posted on this board. If it can be proven that you actually believe that idiotic babble ( and not trolling) then you should be banned for life from this board and ANYWHERE that is Moto related. 

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ElliotB16
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2/24/2023 6:10pm

06/07 Stew had anybody covered on speed 

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