Interesting ICE development- 1 stroke with zero vibration & noise and variable compression ratio

don'tknowwhy
Profile picture for user don'tknowwhy
Posts
525
Joined
7/15/2015
Location
North Las Vegas, NV, USA
don'tknowwhy
Edited Date/Time 11/2/2022 7:04am
Thought some might find this interesting.....not sure if a variation could be adaptable to motorcycle applications.

Link is here
5
1
|
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
9890
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 10/27/2022 10:02am
10/27/2022 10:02am
I saw this too Schwebel, looks cool!








2
ToolMaker 10/27/2022 10:20am
10/27/2022 10:20am
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
4
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
9890
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 10/27/2022 10:26am
10/27/2022 10:26am
ToolMaker wrote:
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through, I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This...
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
There's 2 ramps on the crankshaft so each cylinder has 2 power cycles per crankshaft revolution. I'm not sold on that making it a "1stroke" but I think that's what they are going with. The piston timing seems to be passive, I'm not sure how that works on startup.
4
Falcon
Profile picture for user Falcon
Posts
12411
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
Falcon 10/27/2022 10:39am
10/27/2022 10:39am
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke. From the video demonstration (which I only viewed briefly,) that looks like a 2-stroke to me.
6
1

The Shop

See All »
kNewc
Profile picture for user kNewc
Posts
1169
Joined
3/17/2017
Location
USA
kNewc 10/27/2022 10:43am
10/27/2022 10:43am
Falcon wrote:
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke...
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke. From the video demonstration (which I only viewed briefly,) that looks like a 2-stroke to me.
I agree. 1 stroke would be a piston in a circle that never stops, right?
5
USA
Profile picture for user USA
Posts
2582
Joined
9/4/2016
Location
Richmond, TX, USA
Fantasy
1222nd
USA 10/27/2022 10:51am
10/27/2022 10:51am
Falcon wrote:
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke...
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke. From the video demonstration (which I only viewed briefly,) that looks like a 2-stroke to me.
It is doing all that in one stroke if you look at it as a whole, it's compressing one side from the power stroke of the opposite side, which feeds the exhaust simultaneously
1
1
ToolMaker 10/27/2022 11:40am
10/27/2022 11:40am
ToolMaker wrote:
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through, I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This...
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
early wrote:
There's 2 ramps on the crankshaft so each cylinder has 2 power cycles per crankshaft revolution. I'm not sold on that making it a "1stroke" but...
There's 2 ramps on the crankshaft so each cylinder has 2 power cycles per crankshaft revolution. I'm not sold on that making it a "1stroke" but I think that's what they are going with. The piston timing seems to be passive, I'm not sure how that works on startup.
You definitely have to have some sort of spring system to have the piston follow the ramps during startup. After you're running the pressure on the piston should keep it following the ramps. There's a lot to unpack here but it's pretty
elegant how they did it. KISS strikes again!
TM
3
Broseph
Profile picture for user Broseph
Posts
1202
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA, USA
Broseph 10/27/2022 11:51am
10/27/2022 11:51am Edited Date/Time 10/27/2022 11:51am
ToolMaker wrote:
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through, I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This...
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
early wrote:
There's 2 ramps on the crankshaft so each cylinder has 2 power cycles per crankshaft revolution. I'm not sold on that making it a "1stroke" but...
There's 2 ramps on the crankshaft so each cylinder has 2 power cycles per crankshaft revolution. I'm not sold on that making it a "1stroke" but I think that's what they are going with. The piston timing seems to be passive, I'm not sure how that works on startup.
ToolMaker wrote:
You definitely have to have some sort of spring system to have the piston follow the ramps during startup. After you're running the pressure on the...
You definitely have to have some sort of spring system to have the piston follow the ramps during startup. After you're running the pressure on the piston should keep it following the ramps. There's a lot to unpack here but it's pretty
elegant how they did it. KISS strikes again!
TM
There looks to be an inner ramp capturing the connecting rods.
2
philG
Profile picture for user philG
Posts
10983
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
philG 10/27/2022 1:20pm
10/27/2022 1:20pm
ToolMaker wrote:
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through, I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This...
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
Its been done before and its a nightmare.. too many moving parts, very expensive installation.

My dad was in the Army working on MOD vehicle testing and procurement back in the 1960's and i think Commer did a multi fuel engine that was opposed piston and would pretty much anything that would burn.

Obviously, tech has moved on, but the laws of physics haven't, so while it could be much better , what it would be compared to has as well.

When i was in R&D , we did a 5 Stroke engine, which was a parallel twin, which exhausted two cylinders, into a third big cylinder , like a double compound steam engine, had a lot of potential, but the patent holder wanted too much up front cash that made manufacturers unwilling to take the risk.

It was decent , made good power and was quite economical.



6
NITRODOG
Profile picture for user NITRODOG
Posts
449
Joined
3/25/2010
Location
TEMECULA, CA, USA
NITRODOG 10/27/2022 1:44pm
10/27/2022 1:44pm
What killed Mazda's rotary engine? from the outside, I thought it had great potential.
1
#434
Profile picture for user #434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
#434 10/27/2022 1:53pm
10/27/2022 1:53pm
NITRODOG wrote:
What killed Mazda's rotary engine? from the outside, I thought it had great potential.
Thermodynamics kill it.
Surface to volume ratio is bad with a Wankel, which inevitably leads to a low efficiency.
The other problems (seals, oil consumption) were or could be solved by engineering, but there‘s no was around physics..
3
philG
Profile picture for user philG
Posts
10983
Joined
5/12/2012
Location
GB
philG 10/27/2022 2:39pm
10/27/2022 2:39pm
NITRODOG wrote:
What killed Mazda's rotary engine? from the outside, I thought it had great potential.
#434 wrote:
Thermodynamics kill it. Surface to volume ratio is bad with a Wankel, which inevitably leads to a low efficiency. The other problems (seals, oil consumption) were...
Thermodynamics kill it.
Surface to volume ratio is bad with a Wankel, which inevitably leads to a low efficiency.
The other problems (seals, oil consumption) were or could be solved by engineering, but there‘s no was around physics..
NSU did a rotary back in the 60's, it ripped but as was said, heat and rotor sealing issues kill them.

Best sounding engine ever mind.
1
ToolMaker 10/27/2022 2:51pm
10/27/2022 2:51pm Edited Date/Time 10/27/2022 4:10pm
ToolMaker wrote:
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through, I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This...
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
philG wrote:
Its been done before and its a nightmare.. too many moving parts, very expensive installation. My dad was in the Army working on MOD vehicle testing...
Its been done before and its a nightmare.. too many moving parts, very expensive installation.

My dad was in the Army working on MOD vehicle testing and procurement back in the 1960's and i think Commer did a multi fuel engine that was opposed piston and would pretty much anything that would burn.

Obviously, tech has moved on, but the laws of physics haven't, so while it could be much better , what it would be compared to has as well.

When i was in R&D , we did a 5 Stroke engine, which was a parallel twin, which exhausted two cylinders, into a third big cylinder , like a double compound steam engine, had a lot of potential, but the patent holder wanted too much up front cash that made manufacturers unwilling to take the risk.

It was decent , made good power and was quite economical.



"Its been done before and its a nightmare.." Well, if you have opposing pistons, you can go half the rpm and have the same rate of expansion as the pistons move away from each other. So there is that. I think there's probably an elegant way to do that but I haven't thought it through yet. I really like what they did but I'm wondering how they are going to get the torque. There is going to be so much R&D in the ramp system we may not see this before electric takes over everything. But this would be an awesome airplane engine.
TM
1
1
OleTex
Profile picture for user OleTex
Posts
658
Joined
7/16/2016
Location
Central, TX, USA
OleTex 10/27/2022 3:01pm
10/27/2022 3:01pm
NITRODOG wrote:
What killed Mazda's rotary engine? from the outside, I thought it had great potential.
#434 wrote:
Thermodynamics kill it. Surface to volume ratio is bad with a Wankel, which inevitably leads to a low efficiency. The other problems (seals, oil consumption) were...
Thermodynamics kill it.
Surface to volume ratio is bad with a Wankel, which inevitably leads to a low efficiency.
The other problems (seals, oil consumption) were or could be solved by engineering, but there‘s no was around physics..
philG wrote:
NSU did a rotary back in the 60's, it ripped but as was said, heat and rotor sealing issues kill them.

Best sounding engine ever mind.
Wife had a ‘79 RX Mazda. I loved that rotary engine.
#434
Profile picture for user #434
Posts
1913
Joined
3/23/2017
Location
DE
#434 10/27/2022 3:31pm
10/27/2022 3:31pm
If one of you Wankel fans ever happen to be in Munich, go to the German Museum. They have a great section dedicated to Wankel‘s invention and what the NSU engineers made of it.
1
resetjet
Profile picture for user resetjet
Posts
2546
Joined
3/16/2012
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
resetjet 10/27/2022 3:39pm
10/27/2022 3:39pm
That has 8 2 stroke pistons so its a 16 stroke.

Intermeshing gear engines or even turbines are 1 stroke. Nothing reverses
1
Falcon
Profile picture for user Falcon
Posts
12411
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
Falcon 10/27/2022 3:50pm
10/27/2022 3:50pm
Falcon wrote:
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke...
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke. From the video demonstration (which I only viewed briefly,) that looks like a 2-stroke to me.
USA wrote:
It is doing all that in one stroke if you look at it as a whole, it's compressing one side from the power stroke of the...
It is doing all that in one stroke if you look at it as a whole, it's compressing one side from the power stroke of the opposite side, which feeds the exhaust simultaneously
I see your point, but I don't think that changes the operation of each cylinder.

For instance, in an inline 4, each piston is often clocked 180 degrees away from the next, thus you have all 4 phases operating at once. Those are still 4-cycle engines.
3
ToolMaker 10/27/2022 4:22pm
10/27/2022 4:22pm
Falcon wrote:
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke...
I don't want to start another "what is a quad" argument, but unless intake, compression, fire and exhaust are all happening simultaneously, that ain't a one-stroke. From the video demonstration (which I only viewed briefly,) that looks like a 2-stroke to me.
USA wrote:
It is doing all that in one stroke if you look at it as a whole, it's compressing one side from the power stroke of the...
It is doing all that in one stroke if you look at it as a whole, it's compressing one side from the power stroke of the opposite side, which feeds the exhaust simultaneously
Falcon wrote:
I see your point, but I don't think that changes the operation of each [i]cylinder[/i]. For instance, in an inline 4, each piston is often clocked...
I see your point, but I don't think that changes the operation of each cylinder.

For instance, in an inline 4, each piston is often clocked 180 degrees away from the next, thus you have all 4 phases operating at once. Those are still 4-cycle engines.
If you have a reciprocating piston, you have 4 operations, intake, compression, power, exhaust. It can happen in 4 strokes of the individual piston or 2. The "stroke" is considered the piston traveling from one end to the other.
If the piston has to travel left to right and then right to left to start the cycle again that would be 2 strokes. What am I missing?
TM
3

Pit Row

See All »
ToolMaker 10/27/2022 5:05pm
10/27/2022 5:05pm
So I just watched the video. And now I'm more impressed.
Revolutionary! So their vision is a range extender for electric cars. I can see that, but cars that are in design today will not be produced for 3 years from now. To design that in what do you think 5 years out to see it in a car?
On a street bike? Those 2 big gyroscopes, could you lean over the bike? Hmm
TM
3
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
9890
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 10/27/2022 6:54pm
10/27/2022 6:54pm
There's a little more info on their website but not much. It says they are developing an aviation model and the one intended to be used as a generator in vehicles. Substituting a generator for half or more of an ev's batteries and making it a medium range (60-100 mile) ev hybrid makes alot of sense. It allows battery development and material procurement to progress at a more natural pace at the same time it encourages generator engine and fuel cell development for a range of applications. A 15-20kwh battery wouldn't be out of the question to charge everynight with home solar and a battery bank. You could theoretically connect the car to your house as a backup powersupply, or charge your Varge at the track, or power your camper.
https://innengine.com/the-future-is-eclectic/
CASH476
Profile picture for user CASH476
Posts
622
Joined
2/27/2009
Location
Perth, AU
CASH476 10/27/2022 7:56pm
10/27/2022 7:56pm
This one's from 1910. The new one uses swashplates instead of swivels which would make it more compact but the principle is the same as far as I can tell.


7
Radical
Profile picture for user Radical
Posts
2882
Joined
10/20/2012
Location
San Diego, CA, USA
Radical 10/27/2022 8:27pm
10/27/2022 8:27pm
ToolMaker wrote:
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through, I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This...
I've often though about an opposing cylinder design but never gave it enough thought to see it through,
I really appreciate how brilliant this is. This can truly be revolutionary. I'm impressed. And how simple it is
really makes it an elegant design. Not sure how the call it 1 stroke, I guess I'll have to watch the video
when I get to a computer with sound. But from the pictures, at a minimum you still have to compress and
expansion.
TM
philG wrote:
Its been done before and its a nightmare.. too many moving parts, very expensive installation. My dad was in the Army working on MOD vehicle testing...
Its been done before and its a nightmare.. too many moving parts, very expensive installation.

My dad was in the Army working on MOD vehicle testing and procurement back in the 1960's and i think Commer did a multi fuel engine that was opposed piston and would pretty much anything that would burn.

Obviously, tech has moved on, but the laws of physics haven't, so while it could be much better , what it would be compared to has as well.

When i was in R&D , we did a 5 Stroke engine, which was a parallel twin, which exhausted two cylinders, into a third big cylinder , like a double compound steam engine, had a lot of potential, but the patent holder wanted too much up front cash that made manufacturers unwilling to take the risk.

It was decent , made good power and was quite economical.



Is the patent still published? It would be interesting to see.
Leave Us To
Profile picture for user Leave Us To
Posts
1141
Joined
10/21/2015
Location
Rocky River, OH, USA
Leave Us To 10/29/2022 9:25am
10/29/2022 9:25am Edited Date/Time 10/29/2022 9:27am
ToolMaker wrote:
So I just watched the video. And now I'm more impressed. Revolutionary! So their vision is a range extender for electric cars. I can see that...
So I just watched the video. And now I'm more impressed.
Revolutionary! So their vision is a range extender for electric cars. I can see that, but cars that are in design today will not be produced for 3 years from now. To design that in what do you think 5 years out to see it in a car?
On a street bike? Those 2 big gyroscopes, could you lean over the bike? Hmm
TM
People who are still waiting on their 3 wheeled Elio's should sign up. BTW I just did a search on Elio and over 6K people put down non refundable deposits but they shuttered without delivering a single unit. Now they've announced an electric model for 15K and anyone who deals with this new version of Elio deserves to get ripped off.
ToolMaker 10/29/2022 10:39am
10/29/2022 10:39am
ToolMaker wrote:
So I just watched the video. And now I'm more impressed. Revolutionary! So their vision is a range extender for electric cars. I can see that...
So I just watched the video. And now I'm more impressed.
Revolutionary! So their vision is a range extender for electric cars. I can see that, but cars that are in design today will not be produced for 3 years from now. To design that in what do you think 5 years out to see it in a car?
On a street bike? Those 2 big gyroscopes, could you lean over the bike? Hmm
TM
Leave Us To wrote:
People who are still waiting on their 3 wheeled Elio's should sign up. BTW I just did a search on [url=https://www.motortrend.com/news/elio-motors-e-electric-vehicle/]Elio[/url] and over 6K people put...
People who are still waiting on their 3 wheeled Elio's should sign up. BTW I just did a search on Elio and over 6K people put down non refundable deposits but they shuttered without delivering a single unit. Now they've announced an electric model for 15K and anyone who deals with this new version of Elio deserves to get ripped off.
And that's relevant how? This is a thread about a technology not business practices.
TM
1
ToolMaker 10/29/2022 11:06am
10/29/2022 11:06am
CASH476 wrote:
This one's from 1910. The new one uses swashplates instead of swivels which would make it more compact but the principle is the same as far...
This one's from 1910. The new one uses swashplates instead of swivels which would make it more compact but the principle is the same as far as I can tell.


It seems like it would "steal" a lot of energy to start and stop the mass of the swivels. It's not a circular motion that retains it's energy.
TM
ADynes
Profile picture for user ADynes
Posts
276
Joined
5/26/2011
Location
USA
ADynes 10/30/2022 5:45pm
10/30/2022 5:45pm
The method of variable compression is clever. But...

A non-centrally located spark plug is very bad for efficiency and detonation resistance.

It's definitely not a 1 stroke; it's 2. Calling it a 1 stroke seems scammy.

Being a two stroke without crankcase scavenging will require some type of blower, adding to the size and weight.

Maybe the animation is over simplified, but their roller design is kinematically poor. A tapered design will be needed to prevent inboard/outboard skidding and wear.

Until I see data I'm skeptical of their claims.
1
Broseph
Profile picture for user Broseph
Posts
1202
Joined
4/28/2018
Location
Stevenson, WA, USA
Broseph 10/30/2022 6:17pm
10/30/2022 6:17pm
ADynes wrote:
The method of variable compression is clever. But... A non-centrally located spark plug is very bad for efficiency and detonation resistance. It's definitely not a 1...
The method of variable compression is clever. But...

A non-centrally located spark plug is very bad for efficiency and detonation resistance.

It's definitely not a 1 stroke; it's 2. Calling it a 1 stroke seems scammy.

Being a two stroke without crankcase scavenging will require some type of blower, adding to the size and weight.

Maybe the animation is over simplified, but their roller design is kinematically poor. A tapered design will be needed to prevent inboard/outboard skidding and wear.

Until I see data I'm skeptical of their claims.
You bring up some good points.

Yes, “strokes” are counted as number of piston strokes per thermodynamic cycle, not per crankshaft revolution like the video implies.

Also, they have those big rollers and ramped disks to transmit power, but I’m most interested in how they handle the tensile forces in the piston and roller assembly. Pretty sure I can see an inner ramp capturing the rollers, but it seems very small. In engines that turn high rpm, the tensile forces are often just as high as the compressive forces on the piston/rod assembly. There must at least be an outer ramped disk to compliment the inner and counteract the large moment the inner ramp would make by itself. Maybe not shown in the video for clarity?

Post a reply to: Interesting ICE development- 1 stroke with zero vibration & noise and variable compression ratio