Tomac VS Carmichael

Big Lenny
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Big Lenny 7/17/2022 9:57am
7/17/2022 9:57am Edited Date/Time 7/17/2022 9:58am
profeshenal125 wrote:
With aderal yet the biggest cheat drug there is . You hv more energy boost than any drug . Mental focus is a mliiion times sharper...
With aderal yet the biggest cheat drug there is . You hv more energy boost than any drug . Mental focus is a mliiion times sharper. You see things that others can’t. That’s why he jumped stuff no one else would. And tried plowing threw jumps. Mx wants Olympic style drug testing. Olympic athletes get there wins deleted and all money from wins are given back. A women at the y is aprox 130lbs ovr wt . When she’s on aderal she is doing back flips into the pool and has more energy than a 13 yr old gymnast. Without aderal she can hardly move. Thread isn’t about James anyway. Only rider that could match RC in the sand is that Dutch rider. But in a series RC could handle him or anyone.
Yeah bullshit Dr. Seuss...Dry
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 7/17/2022 4:29pm
7/17/2022 4:29pm
Adderall is amphetamines.
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USA
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USA 7/17/2022 4:51pm
7/17/2022 4:51pm
"Who would win, Carmichael or Tomac?"

Big Lenny: "James Stewart you bunch of bullshittin Dr. Seuss dummies"
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Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 7/17/2022 4:56pm
7/17/2022 4:56pm
Ricky is the baddest MF’er to ever throw a leg over a dirt bike. Hypothetically nobody gets the best of RC ever.
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ShipLap
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ShipLap 7/17/2022 5:04pm
7/17/2022 5:04pm
"It was kind of weird to look up and see Ricky (Carmichael) looping out like that. I was kind of like, 'Whoa.' And then as I was passing him, I'm like, 'I'm actually passing Ricky,' but the only problem was he was running for his bike" (Nathan Ramsey, after winning the Pontiac SX - 2002).
tomlopez
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tomlopez 7/17/2022 7:47pm
7/17/2022 7:47pm
Big Lenny wrote:
Because the speed he was runnin' is greater than Tomac's...Cool
tomlopez wrote:
How do you know that? Listen, I'm fine with the argument that nobody in history could match peak James' pace on a Supercross track. I do...
How do you know that?

Listen, I'm fine with the argument that nobody in history could match peak James' pace on a Supercross track. I do happen to think Villopoto had something for him, but I'm not hard disagreeing with the statement.

But outdoors is different. People seem to get blinded by the FMOTP title that he earned in SX and apply it to MX. Let's break down his outdoor career, save 125s because I really don't think it's reasonable to use 125s to assess a professional rider's career.

'05- Carmichael had the pace on Stewart 9 times out of 10. Stewart did have a disadvantage by being on the 250, so let's say we don't count this season against him as much.

'06- he's on the 450 now, and he still got waxed by Carmichael. Did he get a few moto wins? Yes. Was he able to stay in front of Ricky for the first half of a lot of motos? Yes. But Carmichael had no problem making those late race passes on him. It was easy to tell who had the upper hand.

'07- still got beat by a Carmichael who was on his retirement tour. Same story as '06.

'08- perfect season, high water mark of Stewart's MX career. Was it incredibly impressive? Yes. Does it boost his career resume a bit? Yes. Was it against one of the weakest 450 fields ever? Also yes. It's not like he went 24-0 against true title contenders. No disrespect to Alessi, Ferry, etc., but we all know they weren't ever real title contenders in any other seasons either.

'09 - '12 - did he race outdoors, or was he SX only that whole time? I forgot, but if he did race at all, it wasn't notable.

'13- waxed by Villopoto and Dungey all season. Can't use the "he was aging" excuse because he was 27. That's not old enough to excuse the lack of pace he could maintain against the title contenders that season. He led and won a couple motos, but they came while being hounded by RV, or RD, or Canard. He never came through the pack, passed the top guys, and won.

Did he have a good outdoor career with a very high peak? Yes. But he didn't do enough to earn the status in MX that he did earn in SX as FMOTP.
Big Lenny wrote:
James was on shit equipment and burnt by that time he beat RV enough times.. :dry: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/07/15/559792/s1200_Baby.jpg[/img]
James was on shit equipment and burnt by that time he beat RV enough times.. Dry



He literally never beat RV in an outdoor series. Roczen won on basically the same bike in '16. Being burnt out at 27 doesn't make losing any more excusable, if anything it's a stain on the career.

None of your fanboy arguments are 1) correct/accurate or 2) make Stewart's case as MX FMOTP any better.
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Big Lenny
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Big Lenny 7/17/2022 8:23pm
7/17/2022 8:23pm
tomlopez wrote:
How do you know that? Listen, I'm fine with the argument that nobody in history could match peak James' pace on a Supercross track. I do...
How do you know that?

Listen, I'm fine with the argument that nobody in history could match peak James' pace on a Supercross track. I do happen to think Villopoto had something for him, but I'm not hard disagreeing with the statement.

But outdoors is different. People seem to get blinded by the FMOTP title that he earned in SX and apply it to MX. Let's break down his outdoor career, save 125s because I really don't think it's reasonable to use 125s to assess a professional rider's career.

'05- Carmichael had the pace on Stewart 9 times out of 10. Stewart did have a disadvantage by being on the 250, so let's say we don't count this season against him as much.

'06- he's on the 450 now, and he still got waxed by Carmichael. Did he get a few moto wins? Yes. Was he able to stay in front of Ricky for the first half of a lot of motos? Yes. But Carmichael had no problem making those late race passes on him. It was easy to tell who had the upper hand.

'07- still got beat by a Carmichael who was on his retirement tour. Same story as '06.

'08- perfect season, high water mark of Stewart's MX career. Was it incredibly impressive? Yes. Does it boost his career resume a bit? Yes. Was it against one of the weakest 450 fields ever? Also yes. It's not like he went 24-0 against true title contenders. No disrespect to Alessi, Ferry, etc., but we all know they weren't ever real title contenders in any other seasons either.

'09 - '12 - did he race outdoors, or was he SX only that whole time? I forgot, but if he did race at all, it wasn't notable.

'13- waxed by Villopoto and Dungey all season. Can't use the "he was aging" excuse because he was 27. That's not old enough to excuse the lack of pace he could maintain against the title contenders that season. He led and won a couple motos, but they came while being hounded by RV, or RD, or Canard. He never came through the pack, passed the top guys, and won.

Did he have a good outdoor career with a very high peak? Yes. But he didn't do enough to earn the status in MX that he did earn in SX as FMOTP.
Big Lenny wrote:
James was on shit equipment and burnt by that time he beat RV enough times.. :dry: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2022/07/15/559792/s1200_Baby.jpg[/img]
James was on shit equipment and burnt by that time he beat RV enough times.. Dry



tomlopez wrote:
He literally never beat RV in an outdoor series. Roczen won on basically the same bike in '16. Being burnt out at 27 doesn't make losing...
He literally never beat RV in an outdoor series. Roczen won on basically the same bike in '16. Being burnt out at 27 doesn't make losing any more excusable, if anything it's a stain on the career.

None of your fanboy arguments are 1) correct/accurate or 2) make Stewart's case as MX FMOTP any better.
Fuck you...
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brimx153
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brimx153 7/17/2022 8:37pm
7/17/2022 8:37pm
People kind of disrespect RC on just how good he was . I ve heard so often the class was weaker than it is now , I call bull on that . Look what he use to do to Reed , every wk . Then Reed in 11 can win against RV and RD . Probably unpopular opinion but I think the class was nearly stronger in 06 . Just RC was just that good . I also can't stand the saying RC was nt as talented as X rider . What they are saying is he was nt as pretty riding style on the bike . The biggest talent you need is corner speed and keeping momentum. RC had that , and consintraded on it so much in training. He did nt care if his leg was off or arms were down . I ve seen some rider s with great technique , but are not that fast . Then some who have terrible technique but just natural unbelievably corner speed .
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jambalaya 7/17/2022 8:47pm
7/17/2022 8:47pm
brimx153 wrote:
People kind of disrespect RC on just how good he was . I ve heard so often the class was weaker than it is now...
People kind of disrespect RC on just how good he was . I ve heard so often the class was weaker than it is now , I call bull on that . Look what he use to do to Reed , every wk . Then Reed in 11 can win against RV and RD . Probably unpopular opinion but I think the class was nearly stronger in 06 . Just RC was just that good . I also can't stand the saying RC was nt as talented as X rider . What they are saying is he was nt as pretty riding style on the bike . The biggest talent you need is corner speed and keeping momentum. RC had that , and consintraded on it so much in training. He did nt care if his leg was off or arms were down . I ve seen some rider s with great technique , but are not that fast . Then some who have terrible technique but just natural unbelievably corner speed .
I might be naive but I’ve always said the level was never better than Stewart and rc pushing each other and Reed fighting his ass off to be on that level. Even Dungey and rv were fortunate that the level fell off by the time they got there. Reed 11 showed even when we thought he was done he could still compete with them and stew was on a bike that was objectively bad
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Big Lenny
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Big Lenny 7/17/2022 8:48pm
7/17/2022 8:48pm
brimx153 wrote:
People kind of disrespect RC on just how good he was . I ve heard so often the class was weaker than it is now...
People kind of disrespect RC on just how good he was . I ve heard so often the class was weaker than it is now , I call bull on that . Look what he use to do to Reed , every wk . Then Reed in 11 can win against RV and RD . Probably unpopular opinion but I think the class was nearly stronger in 06 . Just RC was just that good . I also can't stand the saying RC was nt as talented as X rider . What they are saying is he was nt as pretty riding style on the bike . The biggest talent you need is corner speed and keeping momentum. RC had that , and consintraded on it so much in training. He did nt care if his leg was off or arms were down . I ve seen some rider s with great technique , but are not that fast . Then some who have terrible technique but just natural unbelievably corner speed .
I agree..Dry
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ML512
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ML512 7/18/2022 5:01am
7/18/2022 5:01am
Big Lenny wrote:
Fuck you...
Just telling someone to fuck off means you've lost the debate...and you've lost your account for now as well.
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motomike137
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motomike137 7/18/2022 6:44am
7/18/2022 6:44am
ML512 wrote:
Just telling someone to fuck off means you've lost the debate...and you've lost your account for now as well.
It amazes me how a simple bench racing concept deteriorates into this mess. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because it happens in darn near every thread.
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tprice07
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tprice07 7/18/2022 7:41am
7/18/2022 7:41am
motomike137 wrote:
As the thread title says it's Eli vs Ricky outdoors at let's say Red Bud on a nice day like we had a week ago. RC...
As the thread title says it's Eli vs Ricky outdoors at let's say Red Bud on a nice day like we had a week ago. RC was able to hold Stewart at bay for the most part outdoors, how would he handle ET3 in beast mode?
RC would have dominated any current day top rider. Ricky and James were suicidal when it came to winning. I swear they were willing to die on the bike.

RV was the only one I've seen in recent history with that same drive. Webb at times has been similar but just seemed to have some hiccups recently.
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olds cool
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olds cool 7/18/2022 10:30am
7/18/2022 10:30am
I circled back (at least Peppermint Patty gave us some creative terms in her non-answers Wink ) this morning to see how far down the toilet this one had swirled and to suggest a thread title change but I see that’s no longer necessary. Cool

Back to the original topic…Tomac and a fair number of others are and were true bad asses but until someone comes along and strings together 10 years the way RC did, the answer to the OP’s question will not change.
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 7/18/2022 10:54am
7/18/2022 10:54am
ML512 wrote:
Just telling someone to fuck off means you've lost the debate...and you've lost your account for now as well.
motomike137 wrote:
It amazes me how a simple bench racing concept deteriorates into this mess. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because it happens in darn near every...
It amazes me how a simple bench racing concept deteriorates into this mess. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because it happens in darn near every thread.
Big Lenny makes people want to talk shit about Stewart, it’s too easy.
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motoxrocks
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motoxrocks 7/18/2022 11:47am
7/18/2022 11:47am
Don't think we will ever see 10 straight out door championships again like just like we never saw it before it happened.! Takes a lot of things to go right in a sport that tends not to allow that. RC was just a bad MOFO! Saw him pass JS in 07 at Southwick when they were both on 450's. JS was in a berm and RC took the rougher outside line, RC's bike was popping off the Rev limiter, swapping every which way and he made the pass and pulled away. Never forget it! Respect to all these guys, JS and ET are legends but RC is the GOAT!!!!!!
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Joey_Bridges
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Joey_Bridges 7/18/2022 12:54pm
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🤣😂🤣
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gerg
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gerg 7/18/2022 2:54pm
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Vital: "ML can you FFS ban J Sloan he's the biggest troll on Vital !!!!"

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Park Boys
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Park Boys 7/18/2022 3:55pm
7/18/2022 3:55pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2022 4:17pm
It would be cool to throw in Prime Stew, we always judge Stew Harshly it seems. We forget he was only 19-20 when he started racing RC in his absolute prime. Don’t forget even after all of Stews crashes in 06 and he was not the same after the high point crash he still pushed RC into more mistakes that year then he had made in his previous 4 years and some of there 07 races are arguably some of the best racing we have seen.

But let’s put 08 Stew, year 3 which as we know it least in SX seems to be the magic number and 2013 RV who was a savage and was when we all started asking is RV going faster then RC/Stew where going in 06/07/08. Then you put in 16 Roczen, what he did to those guys in the first couple laps was all time, Pull 5-10 seconds and cruise. It’s not a coincidence that Herlings titles started when Roczen left or that Tomacs first “beast” mode race of 2017 was the first race that Roczen missed from injury. And now of course Eli who has much more consistency than all of the other guys listed and is on arguably career form right now as 2015 he only made it through 5 motos. Might as well put 18 Herlings in there as well as this is clearly fantasy land.

That IMO is what we would all dream of seeing. RC wins the title no doubt and would be a favorite for any MX race but they would be amazing.
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Park Boys
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Park Boys 7/18/2022 3:56pm
7/18/2022 3:56pm
tprice07 wrote:
RC would have dominated any current day top rider. Ricky and James were suicidal when it came to winning. I swear they were willing to die...
RC would have dominated any current day top rider. Ricky and James were suicidal when it came to winning. I swear they were willing to die on the bike.

RV was the only one I've seen in recent history with that same drive. Webb at times has been similar but just seemed to have some hiccups recently.
You can label me as a hater but when it comes to Motocross, Webb’s name has no business being brought up with RC, Stew and RV.
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lwtracer
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lwtracer 7/18/2022 4:05pm
7/18/2022 4:05pm
A betting man has to go with Ricky because you know you're going to get the Ricky who doesn't want to lose. Doesn't matter how shit the bike set up is or how rough the track is. He's gonna let it hang out and win.

If you can 100% get Eli when he's truly at his absolute best, and you know you're going to get that Eli when everything is clicking, you pick that Eli. 2014 des nations Eli was absolutely insanity. 2015 hangtown eli was pure poetry. I will take Eli over anyone ever if Eli is truly in the zone.

But since you almost never see Eli truly in that zone, Ricky gets the nod.
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tprice07
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tprice07 7/18/2022 4:40pm
7/18/2022 4:40pm
tprice07 wrote:
RC would have dominated any current day top rider. Ricky and James were suicidal when it came to winning. I swear they were willing to die...
RC would have dominated any current day top rider. Ricky and James were suicidal when it came to winning. I swear they were willing to die on the bike.

RV was the only one I've seen in recent history with that same drive. Webb at times has been similar but just seemed to have some hiccups recently.
Park Boys wrote:
You can label me as a hater but when it comes to Motocross, Webb’s name has no business being brought up with RC, Stew and RV.
I agree with you. I was referring to his fight at times..I respect what he has done in supercross really not a fan of his.

Even with as many wins as Tomac has he never had the fight in him like the past champs.
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kpiper
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kpiper 7/18/2022 7:13pm
7/18/2022 7:13pm
tprice07 wrote:
I agree with you. I was referring to his fight at times..I respect what he has done in supercross really not a fan of his. Even...
I agree with you. I was referring to his fight at times..I respect what he has done in supercross really not a fan of his.

Even with as many wins as Tomac has he never had the fight in him like the past champs.
A guy who won three titles in a row never had "the fight" in him??? Do you know that no one else except Ricky ever won three in a row?
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mxb2 7/18/2022 7:49pm
7/18/2022 7:49pm
tprice07 wrote:
I agree with you. I was referring to his fight at times..I respect what he has done in supercross really not a fan of his. Even...
I agree with you. I was referring to his fight at times..I respect what he has done in supercross really not a fan of his.

Even with as many wins as Tomac has he never had the fight in him like the past champs.
kpiper wrote:
A guy who won three titles in a row never had "the fight" in him??? Do you know that no one else except Ricky ever won...
A guy who won three titles in a row never had "the fight" in him??? Do you know that no one else except Ricky ever won three in a row?
Jones, tony d have
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Elbows 7/18/2022 7:56pm
7/18/2022 7:56pm
Big Lenny wrote:
Fuck you...
ML512 wrote:
Just telling someone to fuck off means you've lost the debate...and you've lost your account for now as well.
Thank you so much!!! He literally adds nothing to this forum but negativity.
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kpiper
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kpiper 7/18/2022 9:03pm
7/18/2022 9:03pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2022 9:03pm
mxb2 wrote:
Jones, tony d have
Yes, you are correct. I was just thinking post RC4 years. I don't really compare Eli to Jones and Tony D although I love those guys. Eli is on another level.
Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 7/19/2022 8:30am
7/19/2022 8:30am
Park Boys wrote:
You can label me as a hater but when it comes to Motocross, Webb’s name has no business being brought up with RC, Stew and RV.
Webb has something a lot of racers don't have.

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