Tomac VS Carmichael

jambalaya
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7/13/2022 6:50pm
RC would probably beat anyone historically but surprised herlings is getting shit on in here when I’d argue his 2018 season was the best anyone has ever been relatively
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7/13/2022 7:28pm
Alex814 wrote:
Tomac in his current form would've prevented RC from going 24-0. That's about it.
Tomac would not let RC go 24-0, and RC would not let Tomac win the title.
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COAL-TRAIN
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7/13/2022 7:33pm Edited Date/Time 7/13/2022 7:36pm
RC dethroned Mc. Then he went through Reed never loosing a championship to him. Then the same thing with Stewart. Carmichael went 24-0 twice and never lost a championship he contened against those guys. The most impressive thing I'd say he ever did though was coming from behind, passing and yarding Everts on a 250 at a track Everts knew well. If RC were racing Tomac together in their prime Tomac wouldn't have a single championship.
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rjg
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7/13/2022 7:52pm Edited Date/Time 7/13/2022 8:24pm
Straight up,

Ricky tried to make everybody his bitch every line up. It was from being a kid to his retirement season. He went out on top. He left making everyone his bitch and they played catchup with the vacancy.

In the America's there has been many champions who get compared to him but they still haven't had the special thing he had to win. It was a beat them down all the time attitude even when he was off. He figured the game out like no one since. Villopoto was his closest emulation but not the same level.
By that logic I say if it were a championship when they were at peak:
1st Ricky
2nd Ryan (even tho he was not part of this)
3rd Eli (so far, he is not.done)
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The Shop

Big Lenny
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7/13/2022 8:55pm
COAL-TRAIN wrote:
RC dethroned Mc. Then he went through Reed never loosing a championship to him. Then the same thing with Stewart. Carmichael went 24-0 twice and never...
RC dethroned Mc. Then he went through Reed never loosing a championship to him. Then the same thing with Stewart. Carmichael went 24-0 twice and never lost a championship he contened against those guys. The most impressive thing I'd say he ever did though was coming from behind, passing and yarding Everts on a 250 at a track Everts knew well. If RC were racing Tomac together in their prime Tomac wouldn't have a single championship.
James retired RC..He didn't wanna go that fast...Whistling
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ML512
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7/13/2022 8:58pm
Big Lenny wrote:
James retired RC..He didn't wanna go that fast...Whistling
Warning, stinky bait alert.
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Big Lenny
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7/13/2022 9:18pm
Big Lenny wrote:
James retired RC..He didn't wanna go that fast...Whistling
ML512 wrote:
Warning, stinky bait alert.
Laughing
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Sully
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7/13/2022 9:26pm Edited Date/Time 7/13/2022 9:29pm
COAL-TRAIN wrote:
RC dethroned Mc. Then he went through Reed never loosing a championship to him. Then the same thing with Stewart. Carmichael went 24-0 twice and never...
RC dethroned Mc. Then he went through Reed never loosing a championship to him. Then the same thing with Stewart. Carmichael went 24-0 twice and never lost a championship he contened against those guys. The most impressive thing I'd say he ever did though was coming from behind, passing and yarding Everts on a 250 at a track Everts knew well. If RC were racing Tomac together in their prime Tomac wouldn't have a single championship.
Big Lenny wrote:
James retired RC..He didn't wanna go that fast...Whistling
I think it's probably a good thing RC did retire, because one of them was going to get seriously hurt, or die from the speeds they were pushing each other to.
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bents
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Tomac is a beast no doubt and he is making a serious case for the mount rushmore thing as time goes by, but RC never had the off days that Tomac has had over his career, which made Tomac more beatable. RC never gave his competition that option. You just had to go faster, and beat him consistently and no one has been able to do that. RC was a racing machine, a killer. I don't think anyone was as competitive and hated to lose more than RC. The GOAT. Period. His records will never be beaten. Neither will MC's 72 sx wins and 7 SX titles.
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motomike137
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7/14/2022 11:08am
I have to laugh at how most of the threads on this forum just run wildly out of control over the simplest of ideas. I started it after watching Eli in person at Red Bud and on the TV at Southwick. I was thinking about how Eli has now clicked with the Yamaha outdoors much like he did in SX and he may be in the best form of his career. His physical game has always been stellar and now he seems to be mentally all there as well. I was NOT implying anything to the effect of Eli having the career Carmichael has had or even beating Ricky in an outdoor series nor was I denigrating the GOAT in any way shape or form. I was simply daydreaming about watching the two of them on a peak day race each other at a track they both are/were awesome at. In my mind it would might be something like 2007 where RC and Bubba were riding so damn fast it was hard to process and maybe the best display of raw speed I've ever seen short of a few of the moto's that Eli has uncorked in his career. I've been to a couple of these races over the years (more like a hundred) and have a pretty good mental library of who's who and what they are capable of out there Wink Flame on Vital keyboard warriors!
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kpiper
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7/14/2022 12:28pm
I would guess that Eli goes faster now than RC did in his time but that is due to the bikes.

RC does like to say the riders now are much more talented than he was. Hannah would say that too. That he just wore them down.
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7/14/2022 4:45pm
It’s an interesting question to think about and of course unknowable - different in every way, not least by the separation of eras.

But the numbers don’t lie. Look at the figures. RC is in a different league. That’s all you can really go on, everything else is conjecture.
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7/14/2022 4:50pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2022 4:51pm
It’s an interesting question to think about and of course unknowable - different in every way, not least by the separation of eras. But the numbers...
It’s an interesting question to think about and of course unknowable - different in every way, not least by the separation of eras.

But the numbers don’t lie. Look at the figures. RC is in a different league. That’s all you can really go on, everything else is conjecture.
BUT I do understand that figures aren’t the whole picture. Some people still hold Ayrton Senna as the GOAT of F1 (who admittedly died prematurely), but the numbers put him back on most metrics. Aside from pure driving talent.

In that case Tomac is definitely at the same level as RC, maybe just not as refined or in an era where he can capitalise as heavily.

Pretty similar to Herlings really. Unbelievable all-timer talent, without the championships to fully back it up.
kpiper
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7/14/2022 5:08pm
BUT I do understand that figures aren’t the whole picture. Some people still hold Ayrton Senna as the GOAT of F1 (who admittedly died prematurely), but...
BUT I do understand that figures aren’t the whole picture. Some people still hold Ayrton Senna as the GOAT of F1 (who admittedly died prematurely), but the numbers put him back on most metrics. Aside from pure driving talent.

In that case Tomac is definitely at the same level as RC, maybe just not as refined or in an era where he can capitalise as heavily.

Pretty similar to Herlings really. Unbelievable all-timer talent, without the championships to fully back it up.
RC won 10 of 10 years he rode and would have won 11 of 11 if he just finished his last season. He won every race but quit early.

No one is even close to that. Eli won three in a row and that is awesome but not even close to RC.
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ROCKNDAWG
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7/14/2022 5:20pm
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
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tomlopez
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7/14/2022 6:00pm
ROCKNDAWG wrote:
RC over Tomac easily RV over Tomac Bubba over Tomac I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared...
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
If we're talking outdoors, how is Stewart ahead of Tomac? Tomac has more moto wins, more overalls, and has two more titles (might be 3 more).
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westeast
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7/14/2022 6:10pm
I think for SX the lap times between the top 10 are considerably closer now than they were in RC's time. Is this also true for MX? If so that gives some legitimacy to the "field is deeper now" argument.

To me, who only saw RC's final couple years, I'd say it's 60/40 for any given race in favor of RC due to his consistency. If Tomac were to close out the 22 MX title in a similar way he was able to with SX and we just compared Yamaha Tomac to RC I'd probably still give the nod to RC, but just barely. It's all conjecture and I think it's fun thinking about it and seeing everyone's opinions. No sense getting upset about it.
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wreckitrandy
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7/14/2022 6:20pm
ROCKNDAWG wrote:
RC over Tomac easily RV over Tomac Bubba over Tomac I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared...
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
tomlopez wrote:
If we're talking outdoors, how is Stewart ahead of Tomac? Tomac has more moto wins, more overalls, and has two more titles (might be 3 more).
Yeah but, Tomac never had to race RC.
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Big Lenny
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7/14/2022 6:22pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2022 6:23pm
ROCKNDAWG wrote:
RC over Tomac easily RV over Tomac Bubba over Tomac I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared...
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
tomlopez wrote:
If we're talking outdoors, how is Stewart ahead of Tomac? Tomac has more moto wins, more overalls, and has two more titles (might be 3 more).
Because the speed he was runnin' is greater than Tomac's...Cool
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kpiper
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7/14/2022 6:28pm
ROCKNDAWG wrote:
RC over Tomac easily RV over Tomac Bubba over Tomac I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared...
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
Tomac over RV2 in MX
Tomac over Bubba in MX
Tomac won three titles in a row. That closes that deal. Who else has won three in a row?
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7/14/2022 6:57pm Edited Date/Time 7/14/2022 7:01pm
How many RC era tracks are the exact same layout as they are today? Are there no all time lap time boards for lap records? I guess these tracks probably change too much for that to be fair?

Just watched an RC Southwick compilation of wins from 97 to retirement and honestly he looks easily as fast if not faster as the top guys today.

He really is the undisputed GOAT in my mind, even accounting for era etc. Certainly for the time being at least.
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chadder44
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7/14/2022 8:18pm
The reason it's hard to compare riders from different eras is because the field gets more and more polished. These guys have been riding at training facilities their entire lives. They have been riding sx tracks their entire lives. They have been scrubbing their entire lives. They all have trainers and the training has advanced. The field is deeper now, maybe not with title threats, but with guys who can run the pace. And we know the pace is as good or better than it has always been, because the torch has always been passed to someone capable. Ricky to James, James to RV, RV to Dungey, Dungey to Eli. I truly believe that Ricky would be the toughest guy to beat for a title, but I honestly don't know who would be the toughest to beat on any given day. I think they are all worthy, and we are all lucky to have them.
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Phil109
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7/14/2022 9:40pm
RC by a mile. Didn’t read though all these posts but no way. RC won 10 straight outdoor titles basically dominating legends of the sport. It’s fun to bring these things up when tomac kills it a few weekends in a row, however RC killed it every week, every year and every championship. He refused to be beaten. He coulda done even more damage but bowed out on burnout. He had stews number on a fair well season. Tomac himself wouldn’t challenge this.

Fun bench racing topic tho.
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7/15/2022 9:12am
Ricky Carmichael period. No one will ever touch his raw speed, maybe stewart but constistency mixed with raw speed = Carmichael.
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tomlopez
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7/15/2022 9:27am
ROCKNDAWG wrote:
RC over Tomac easily RV over Tomac Bubba over Tomac I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared...
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
tomlopez wrote:
If we're talking outdoors, how is Stewart ahead of Tomac? Tomac has more moto wins, more overalls, and has two more titles (might be 3 more).
Yeah but, Tomac never had to race RC.
Carmichael only raced 2 full MX seasons with Stew in the 250 2 stroke/450F class. Stewart could've had seasons from age 21-28 without Carmichael in his way to rack up outdoor wins and titles, but he was either in SX only mode, or he simply wasn't consistent enough to do it, save '08. And honestly, he wasn't fast enough either. In 2013, Stewart was still 27, plenty young enough to still be a title contender in MX, but he couldn't hang with Villopoto that year. And when he did, he usually went down.
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tomlopez
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7/15/2022 9:38am
ROCKNDAWG wrote:
RC over Tomac easily RV over Tomac Bubba over Tomac I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared...
RC over Tomac easily
RV over Tomac
Bubba over Tomac

I think its funny how some people comment on "how stacked the field" is now. Compared to most of the 1980s it isn't stack at all!
Being an old dude I have got to see most every one race over the years. Raw speed wise I think Stewart, RV and RC all had more than Tomac.
For that fact it's too bad you guys never got to see Bob Hannah in his prime, or how sucking smooth David Bailey was.
tomlopez wrote:
If we're talking outdoors, how is Stewart ahead of Tomac? Tomac has more moto wins, more overalls, and has two more titles (might be 3 more).
Big Lenny wrote:
Because the speed he was runnin' is greater than Tomac's...Cool
How do you know that?

Listen, I'm fine with the argument that nobody in history could match peak James' pace on a Supercross track. I do happen to think Villopoto had something for him, but I'm not hard disagreeing with the statement.

But outdoors is different. People seem to get blinded by the FMOTP title that he earned in SX and apply it to MX. Let's break down his outdoor career, save 125s because I really don't think it's reasonable to use 125s to assess a professional rider's career.

'05- Carmichael had the pace on Stewart 9 times out of 10. Stewart did have a disadvantage by being on the 250, so let's say we don't count this season against him as much.

'06- he's on the 450 now, and he still got waxed by Carmichael. Did he get a few moto wins? Yes. Was he able to stay in front of Ricky for the first half of a lot of motos? Yes. But Carmichael had no problem making those late race passes on him. It was easy to tell who had the upper hand.

'07- still got beat by a Carmichael who was on his retirement tour. Same story as '06.

'08- perfect season, high water mark of Stewart's MX career. Was it incredibly impressive? Yes. Does it boost his career resume a bit? Yes. Was it against one of the weakest 450 fields ever? Also yes. It's not like he went 24-0 against true title contenders. No disrespect to Alessi, Ferry, etc., but we all know they weren't ever real title contenders in any other seasons either.

'09 - '12 - did he race outdoors, or was he SX only that whole time? I forgot, but if he did race at all, it wasn't notable.

'13- waxed by Villopoto and Dungey all season. Can't use the "he was aging" excuse because he was 27. That's not old enough to excuse the lack of pace he could maintain against the title contenders that season. He led and won a couple motos, but they came while being hounded by RV, or RD, or Canard. He never came through the pack, passed the top guys, and won.

Did he have a good outdoor career with a very high peak? Yes. But he didn't do enough to earn the status in MX that he did earn in SX as FMOTP.
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gt80rider
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7/15/2022 11:35am
Rc was win or die trying.... et3 is either slow-mac or elito-mac, and you rarely know what you are going to get...

Rc all day....
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wolf18
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7/15/2022 11:38am
gt80rider wrote:
Rc was win or die trying.... et3 is either slow-mac or elito-mac, and you rarely know what you are going to get...

Rc all day....
RC all day but tomac this year, he is just consistently getting faster and faster.
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