Will KTM / WP ever give up on trying to reinvent the fork?

MUTHERFUKER
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MUTHERFUKER 4/6/2022 10:44am
4/6/2022 10:44am Edited Date/Time 4/6/2022 1:05pm
wrc777 wrote:
Yes I believe so but the valving setup is also quite a bit different. Xplor have separate comp and rebound, one in each leg. 6500 has...
Yes I believe so but the valving setup is also quite a bit different. Xplor have separate comp and rebound, one in each leg. 6500 has both in each leg like a kyb or Showa. You lose the finger adjusters and get flat heads instead. It does still have external spring preload adjustment with a wrench. You also gain spring preload adjustment if you use the 6500 to convert aer to spring.
Man. So many variants. Do I understand this correctly?

KYB PSF1 (air/symmetrical - what Star uses?)
KYB SSS (spring - symmetrical)

Showa (standard spring/symmetrical)
Showa A-Kit (spring/symmetrical)
Showa SSF (asymmetrical - do they even still sell this?)
Showa SSF Air (again, is this even still a thing?)

WP Xplor - OC, asymmetrical spring
WP XPlor Pro 6500 - CC, symmetrical spring
WP XPlor Pro - CC, CV, symmetrical spring
WP Xact - AER, asymmetrical
WP Xact Pro 6500 - CC, symmetrical spring
WP Xact Pro 7500 - OC, symmetrical spring
WP Xact Pro 7448 - AER asymmetrical, CC, CV
WP Xact Pro 7548 - CC, CV, symmetrical spring

It’s pretty cool to have options. Tho, options lead to anxiety LOL.
Rjk31
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Rjk31 4/6/2022 10:55am
4/6/2022 10:55am
Rjk31 wrote:
You seem to think you know an awful lot about their forks for being away for so long.. Ride some stock bikes. They offer 2 different...
You seem to think you know an awful lot about their forks for being away for so long..

Ride some stock bikes. They offer 2 different styles of fork for 3 different styles of riding. If you choose the wrong bike for the desired purpose its on you, not the forks. I would know.

I bought a xcw with the intention of not racing anymore and just riding single track. That lasted a couple months and I was back building an MX track. I bought the drop in WP 6500 cartridges and honestly it's better than anything I have had built or valved on my Suzuki's. It can handle slow technical stuff and it is a dream on the track. I would say WP knows a little more than you're giving them credit for 🤷 I know my next bike will be a ktm
MUTHERFUKER wrote:
What forks did your XC-W come with OE? Im assuming Xplor standard? What difference are the 6500 drop ins? Is the regular Xplor OC and the...
What forks did your XC-W come with OE? Im assuming Xplor standard?

What difference are the 6500 drop ins?

Is the regular Xplor OC and the 6500 CC?
Xplor forks stock.
They are OC and the 6500 is CC.
Took a bit to dial in but I'm very happy with the result for the price.
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sandhills
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sandhills 4/6/2022 1:00pm
4/6/2022 1:00pm
MUTHERFUKER wrote:
Man. So many variants. Do I understand this correctly? KYB PSF1 (air/symmetrical - what Star uses?) KYB SSS (spring - symmetrical) Showa (standard spring/symmetrical) Showa A-Kit...
Man. So many variants. Do I understand this correctly?

KYB PSF1 (air/symmetrical - what Star uses?)
KYB SSS (spring - symmetrical)

Showa (standard spring/symmetrical)
Showa A-Kit (spring/symmetrical)
Showa SSF (asymmetrical - do they even still sell this?)
Showa SSF Air (again, is this even still a thing?)

WP Xplor - OC, asymmetrical spring
WP XPlor Pro 6500 - CC, symmetrical spring
WP XPlor Pro - CC, CV, symmetrical spring
WP Xact - AER, asymmetrical
WP Xact Pro 6500 - CC, symmetrical spring
WP Xact Pro 7500 - OC, symmetrical spring
WP Xact Pro 7448 - AER asymmetrical, CC, CV
WP Xact Pro 7548 - CC, CV, symmetrical spring

It’s pretty cool to have options. Tho, options lead to anxiety LOL.
KYB PSF1 (air/symmetrical - what Star uses)
KYB SSS (spring/symmetrical)
MUTHERFUKER
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MUTHERFUKER 4/6/2022 1:04pm
4/6/2022 1:04pm
sandhills wrote:
KYB PSF1 (air/symmetrical - what Star uses)
KYB SSS (spring/symmetrical)
Interesting. So the KYB stuff is both symmetrical.

They never jumped on the asymmetrical kick huh? Or maybe they did, Im unaware, and it is discontinued.

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NSP139
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NSP139 4/6/2022 1:07pm
4/6/2022 1:07pm
They tried with the psf2 and it was absolute junk worse than the aer
NSP139
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NSP139 4/6/2022 1:45pm
4/6/2022 1:45pm
The psf2 on the Honda 450 for 2015 and 2016 and they were also on the Suzuki 250 I'm not sure for how long
Skerby
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Skerby 4/6/2022 2:00pm
4/6/2022 2:00pm
Showa SSF spring was actually a pretty cool fork. Adjustable pre load
Roczoff
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Roczoff 4/6/2022 6:01pm
4/6/2022 6:01pm
Because the country isn't divided enough.
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NSP139
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NSP139 4/6/2022 6:30pm
4/6/2022 6:30pm
Roczoff wrote:
Because the country isn't divided enough.
We were talking about Moto LOL
Dirtysmile56
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Dirtysmile56 4/8/2022 10:14am
4/8/2022 10:14am
SCC wrote:
KTM and WP are trying to progress development with great results. Only mcf doing so.
Timo wrote:
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo...
Too bad for them their 2 strokes keep getting beat by Yamaha's 16 year old bikes... But hey people on the internet say they are soooo much better.
I own a 2021 YZ250/125 and a couple of GasGas's 450 Troy Lee and MC125 aka Red Ktm's. The Yamaha does not turn even close to the level of the Red Ktm's. (I used to be an Austrian bike hater until I rode a new Husky 450 a month ago)After jumping back and forth I don't even want to ride the Yamaha. I have the suspension done as well as the offset triple clamps to try to get it turn better but it doesn't. It turns like a 15 year old bike.
I'm still not sure about the air forks yet. they seem to be working ok but I am not used to the air feel when rebounding, especially from steeper more booty jump faces. I have a stiffer rear spring on the way for the 450 so I'll see how they feel when sprung correctly. I am running my fork air low to keep it balanced with the soft rear. In my opinion, if I end up switching to spring internals it will still be worth it to have an actual modern feeling bike. A few of my buddies have new Honda 450's and they are constantly trying to get that bike balanced. I haven't ridden one that is working properly yet.
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MUTHERFUKER
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MUTHERFUKER 4/8/2022 11:26am
4/8/2022 11:26am
Dirtysmile56 wrote:
I own a 2021 YZ250/125 and a couple of GasGas's 450 Troy Lee and MC125 aka Red Ktm's. The Yamaha does not turn even close to...
I own a 2021 YZ250/125 and a couple of GasGas's 450 Troy Lee and MC125 aka Red Ktm's. The Yamaha does not turn even close to the level of the Red Ktm's. (I used to be an Austrian bike hater until I rode a new Husky 450 a month ago)After jumping back and forth I don't even want to ride the Yamaha. I have the suspension done as well as the offset triple clamps to try to get it turn better but it doesn't. It turns like a 15 year old bike.
I'm still not sure about the air forks yet. they seem to be working ok but I am not used to the air feel when rebounding, especially from steeper more booty jump faces. I have a stiffer rear spring on the way for the 450 so I'll see how they feel when sprung correctly. I am running my fork air low to keep it balanced with the soft rear. In my opinion, if I end up switching to spring internals it will still be worth it to have an actual modern feeling bike. A few of my buddies have new Honda 450's and they are constantly trying to get that bike balanced. I haven't ridden one that is working properly yet.
I got a question about your GasGas 450’s.

They have the Hinson clutch covers. Which have beveled oil cap threads.

But the OE plastic oil fill cap is made to screw flush/flat.

So is yours sorta mix-match? I assume it seals up fine? They’re definitely different size o-rings imo.

Just checking before I use my billet powerparts cap (flat) on the Hinson (beveled) clutch cover I have.
Dirtysmile56
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Dirtysmile56 4/26/2022 12:51pm
4/26/2022 12:51pm
MUTHERFUKER wrote:
I got a question about your GasGas 450’s. They have the Hinson clutch covers. Which have beveled oil cap threads. But the OE plastic oil fill...
I got a question about your GasGas 450’s.

They have the Hinson clutch covers. Which have beveled oil cap threads.

But the OE plastic oil fill cap is made to screw flush/flat.

So is yours sorta mix-match? I assume it seals up fine? They’re definitely different size o-rings imo.

Just checking before I use my billet powerparts cap (flat) on the Hinson (beveled) clutch cover I have.
I'll take a look. I've been out of town for a bit and finally getting to go ride today.
AJ565
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AJ565 4/26/2022 6:26pm
4/26/2022 6:26pm
So I have a set of cone valves and a set of ‘22 AER’s. I swapped the CV from my 250 2 stroke to the 350 because I was fighting front end traction problems with the air fork on the 350. CV fixed it for me. The AER’s went onto my 250 and I rode that this past weekend. What I noticed was the front end was still planted on the 250 and felt great all day. As a matter of fact I set a PR lap with the 250 that I haven’t even been on since October as I’ve been on the 350. What I took away from this is the fork valving is key here. Per Billy at Powerband the 350 valving is different then the 250 or 450 4 strokes and for sure different then the 2 stroke because of the engine braking or lack there of in the 2 strokes. I feel the 4 stroke valving is holding the fork up in the stroke more going into the turns.

So, if anyone still reading wants to test this out to back up my findings with 350 forks on a 2 stoke that would be awesome. I ran the following settings.

Air pressure: 154 psi (I’m 175 without gear and Vet A speeds)
Compression: 14 clicks out (12 clicks out stock)
Rebound: 10 clicks out (12 clicks out stock)
wrc777
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wrc777 4/26/2022 6:44pm
4/26/2022 6:44pm
AJ565 wrote:
So I have a set of cone valves and a set of ‘22 AER’s. I swapped the CV from my 250 2 stroke to the 350...
So I have a set of cone valves and a set of ‘22 AER’s. I swapped the CV from my 250 2 stroke to the 350 because I was fighting front end traction problems with the air fork on the 350. CV fixed it for me. The AER’s went onto my 250 and I rode that this past weekend. What I noticed was the front end was still planted on the 250 and felt great all day. As a matter of fact I set a PR lap with the 250 that I haven’t even been on since October as I’ve been on the 350. What I took away from this is the fork valving is key here. Per Billy at Powerband the 350 valving is different then the 250 or 450 4 strokes and for sure different then the 2 stroke because of the engine braking or lack there of in the 2 strokes. I feel the 4 stroke valving is holding the fork up in the stroke more going into the turns.

So, if anyone still reading wants to test this out to back up my findings with 350 forks on a 2 stoke that would be awesome. I ran the following settings.

Air pressure: 154 psi (I’m 175 without gear and Vet A speeds)
Compression: 14 clicks out (12 clicks out stock)
Rebound: 10 clicks out (12 clicks out stock)
Any idea what your cv fork was valved for?
AJ565
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AJ565 4/26/2022 7:25pm
4/26/2022 7:25pm
AJ565 wrote:
So I have a set of cone valves and a set of ‘22 AER’s. I swapped the CV from my 250 2 stroke to the 350...
So I have a set of cone valves and a set of ‘22 AER’s. I swapped the CV from my 250 2 stroke to the 350 because I was fighting front end traction problems with the air fork on the 350. CV fixed it for me. The AER’s went onto my 250 and I rode that this past weekend. What I noticed was the front end was still planted on the 250 and felt great all day. As a matter of fact I set a PR lap with the 250 that I haven’t even been on since October as I’ve been on the 350. What I took away from this is the fork valving is key here. Per Billy at Powerband the 350 valving is different then the 250 or 450 4 strokes and for sure different then the 2 stroke because of the engine braking or lack there of in the 2 strokes. I feel the 4 stroke valving is holding the fork up in the stroke more going into the turns.

So, if anyone still reading wants to test this out to back up my findings with 350 forks on a 2 stoke that would be awesome. I ran the following settings.

Air pressure: 154 psi (I’m 175 without gear and Vet A speeds)
Compression: 14 clicks out (12 clicks out stock)
Rebound: 10 clicks out (12 clicks out stock)
wrc777 wrote:
Any idea what your cv fork was valved for?
They were on my 250 and have been for a few years now. They are at Powerband now getting freshened up to go on my 350. So they’ve been setup for me and my skill level before.
Bradj70
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Bradj70 4/26/2022 7:53pm
4/26/2022 7:53pm
Motorsports require revision and reinvention, I don't think we should stop trying, what about magnetic forks!? Boom
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#434
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#434 4/27/2022 12:22am
4/27/2022 12:22am
Bradj70 wrote:
Motorsports require revision and reinvention, I don't think we should stop trying, what about magnetic forks!? Boom
Magnetic? Would that work with a steel frame or just with aluminum frames?
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AJ565
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AJ565 4/27/2022 4:30am
4/27/2022 4:30am
Bradj70 wrote:
Motorsports require revision and reinvention, I don't think we should stop trying, what about magnetic forks!? Boom
#434 wrote:
Magnetic? Would that work with a steel frame or just with aluminum frames?
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active suspension systems work in cars.
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#434
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#434 4/27/2022 5:11am
4/27/2022 5:11am
Bradj70 wrote:
Motorsports require revision and reinvention, I don't think we should stop trying, what about magnetic forks!? Boom
#434 wrote:
Magnetic? Would that work with a steel frame or just with aluminum frames?
AJ565 wrote:
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active...
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active suspension systems work in cars.
Thanks, I know the system. I was just messing with him.
Audi is/was using it in some cars.

However, I don’t think that’s a system suited for dirt bikes. Think about what you need: very expensive damper fluid, electromagnets on forks and damper, control units and so on. Overkill!
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soggy
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soggy 4/27/2022 6:50am
4/27/2022 6:50am
Bradj70 wrote:
Motorsports require revision and reinvention, I don't think we should stop trying, what about magnetic forks!? Boom
#434 wrote:
Magnetic? Would that work with a steel frame or just with aluminum frames?
AJ565 wrote:
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active...
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active suspension systems work in cars.
Keefer has hinted that ktm is testing active suspension
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#434
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#434 4/27/2022 6:53am
4/27/2022 6:53am
#434 wrote:
Magnetic? Would that work with a steel frame or just with aluminum frames?
AJ565 wrote:
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active...
Either one. The fluid would be magnetorheological fluid that changes viscosity depending on the amount of voltage applied to it. It’s how the magnaride or active suspension systems work in cars.
soggy wrote:
Keefer has hinted that ktm is testing active suspension
Probably adjusting the clicker electrically, but surely not by a magnetic fluid.
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wrc777 4/27/2022 6:56am
4/27/2022 6:56am
Mag fluid is the only way. The question is what sensors are required and how robust are they for the typical dirt bike owner? I would expect this to be an aftermarket wp system and probably not something you will see on a production bike.
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#434
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#434 4/27/2022 7:35am
4/27/2022 7:35am Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 8:13am
wrc777 wrote:
Mag fluid is the only way. The question is what sensors are required and how robust are they for the typical dirt bike owner? I would...
Mag fluid is the only way. The question is what sensors are required and how robust are they for the typical dirt bike owner? I would expect this to be an aftermarket wp system and probably not something you will see on a production bike.
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike.

What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that for a long time on street bikes:
https://www.ohlins.eu/en/products/motorcycle/mechatronic-system/
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motokiwi 4/27/2022 10:40am
4/27/2022 10:40am
#434 wrote:
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike. What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that...
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike.

What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that for a long time on street bikes:
https://www.ohlins.eu/en/products/motorcycle/mechatronic-system/
Im sure Fro mentioned on a podcast - that they had that on the rear shock of his 97? kx250. When it sensed long whoop straights etc it would auto adjust the clickers internally.
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#434
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#434 4/27/2022 11:29am
4/27/2022 11:29am
#434 wrote:
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike. What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that...
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike.

What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that for a long time on street bikes:
https://www.ohlins.eu/en/products/motorcycle/mechatronic-system/
motokiwi wrote:
Im sure Fro mentioned on a podcast - that they had that on the rear shock of his 97? kx250. When it sensed long whoop straights...
Im sure Fro mentioned on a podcast - that they had that on the rear shock of his 97? kx250. When it sensed long whoop straights etc it would auto adjust the clickers internally.
Cool, didn’t know. I’m surprised that they don’t use at least a mechanical system today in supercross. E. g. pushing a lever with the left thumb to alter the shock setting for the whoops.
Ducati uses a mechanically activated hydraulic system to alter the ride height for corner exits, starts and stuff in MotoGP. Pretty trick stuff:
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/motorcycles/motogp/motogp-tech-scoop-ducatis-latest-front-shapeshifter-revealed
OrangeJuice158 4/27/2022 12:31pm
4/27/2022 12:31pm
wrc777 wrote:
Mag fluid is the only way. The question is what sensors are required and how robust are they for the typical dirt bike owner? I would...
Mag fluid is the only way. The question is what sensors are required and how robust are they for the typical dirt bike owner? I would expect this to be an aftermarket wp system and probably not something you will see on a production bike.
#434 wrote:
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike. What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that...
Haha, that‘s BS. You‘ll never see such a complex system on a dirt bike.

What’s wrong with electro-mechanically adjusting the clickers? Öhlins has been doing that for a long time on street bikes:
https://www.ohlins.eu/en/products/motorcycle/mechatronic-system/
I had thought about trying to implement this with a set of voice coils driving needle valves back in grad school, but it started to look too expensive to fund myself. You could channel fluid around in different ways as function of where you are in the stroke in addition to track conditions.
Broseph
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Broseph 4/27/2022 12:49pm
4/27/2022 12:49pm Edited Date/Time 4/27/2022 12:51pm
I just want to see regenerative suspension charge the battery in my Stark. Electromagnetic damping ftw.
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OrangeJuice158 4/27/2022 1:43pm
4/27/2022 1:43pm
Broseph wrote:
I just want to see regenerative suspension charge the battery in my Stark. Electromagnetic damping ftw.
Oh yeah, model name Rail Gun.
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Slosh 112
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Slosh 112 4/28/2022 12:18am
4/28/2022 12:18am
I am unsure why you wouldnt want to keep trying hair brained ideas, things like air forks can only get better the more time you spend on them making it all work. KTM is doing it right putting air forks in small bikes so riders grow up with them and Dont reject them because of feel.

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