Use of Starting devices

JOE_SPROCKETS#1
Edited Date/Time 10/19/2021 4:02pm
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
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Renner153
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Renner153 10/19/2021 9:17am
10/19/2021 9:17am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
Everyone uses one, so its still a level playing field. You still have to have technique to get the holeshot.
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theToothPerry
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theToothPerry 10/19/2021 9:17am
10/19/2021 9:17am
I dont feel that way about holeshot devices, but I get irked when a tall guy is using starting blocks.
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cwel11
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cwel11 10/19/2021 9:22am
10/19/2021 9:22am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
Renner153 wrote:
Everyone uses one, so its still a level playing field. You still have to have technique to get the holeshot.
Bout sums it up perfectly. I use one. The guy that beat me on points this season doesn’t use one.sometimes I’d beat him to the first turn and sometimes he’d beat me. They don’t perform miracles
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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 10/19/2021 9:22am
10/19/2021 9:22am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
Renner153 wrote:
Everyone uses one, so its still a level playing field. You still have to have technique to get the holeshot.
Kind of why i brought it up, if everyone uses it then why is it even needed?
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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 10/19/2021 9:23am
10/19/2021 9:23am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2021 9:25am
Would not allowing them spread things out a little in the first turn or nah? slow the speed down? like i said I've never used one and just wondering
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mark_swart
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mark_swart 10/19/2021 9:29am
10/19/2021 9:29am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Would not allowing them spread things out a little in the first turn or nah? slow the speed down? like i said I've never used one...
Would not allowing them spread things out a little in the first turn or nah? slow the speed down? like i said I've never used one and just wondering
This came up on a podcast with an old pro (I can't remember who) - he also thought that getting rid of them would make the first turn safer because it would slow everyone down a tiny bit. I think that idea has merit, but I think then you'd also have to look at all of the electronics and in the case of SX the grates as well.

All that being said, I use one. And it's funny, because sometimes when I know I'm not in contention I don't even bother with it....
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Skerby
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Skerby 10/19/2021 9:30am
10/19/2021 9:30am Edited Date/Time 10/19/2021 2:25pm
Holeshot device saves you money in the long run. I have to slip the clutch a lot more to get a decent start without one, and depending on how long it takes for the gate to drop this can be a problem.

* My reasoning here is without the start device you can gain a lot by slipping clutch and dragging the front brake simultaneously to keep the front end down.
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gt80rider
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gt80rider 10/19/2021 9:33am
10/19/2021 9:33am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
Renner153 wrote:
Everyone uses one, so its still a level playing field. You still have to have technique to get the holeshot.
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Kind of why i brought it up, if everyone uses it then why is it even needed?
Exactly... just more stuff to buy.. more stuff to break and replace.. all for an even playing field.. which can be had without starting devices...

How many crashes do we see per year because they fail to release??? Several.... if anything, they are a hazard...
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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 10/19/2021 9:34am
10/19/2021 9:34am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Would not allowing them spread things out a little in the first turn or nah? slow the speed down? like i said I've never used one...
Would not allowing them spread things out a little in the first turn or nah? slow the speed down? like i said I've never used one and just wondering
mark_swart wrote:
This came up on a podcast with an old pro (I can't remember who) - he also thought that getting rid of them would make the...
This came up on a podcast with an old pro (I can't remember who) - he also thought that getting rid of them would make the first turn safer because it would slow everyone down a tiny bit. I think that idea has merit, but I think then you'd also have to look at all of the electronics and in the case of SX the grates as well.

All that being said, I use one. And it's funny, because sometimes when I know I'm not in contention I don't even bother with it....
I wonder who the first racer was to show up with it and how the AMA and other riders felt about it then?
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murph783
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murph783 10/19/2021 9:36am
10/19/2021 9:36am
I use one essentially cause everyone else does. It’s nice being short and able to touch otherwise I’d say ban them and grates so there’s more skill involved.
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-MAVERICK-
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-MAVERICK- 10/19/2021 10:10am
10/19/2021 10:10am
theToothPerry wrote:
I dont feel that way about holeshot devices, but I get irked when a tall guy is using starting blocks.
You mean like this... Grinning

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Phil109
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Phil109 10/19/2021 10:21am
10/19/2021 10:21am
Kinda think the same thing. Everyone using them takes away the advantage of it in the first place. Then we have them not releasing and causing havoc. I’d vote to do away with them but I don’t race anymore so couldn’t care less either way.
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KVA_536
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KVA_536 10/19/2021 10:22am
10/19/2021 10:22am
After getting a decent start this past weekend at the GrassRace, I thought to myself ... maybe its time to try one of those cheater hooks. This topic couldn't have better timing
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Hammer 663s
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Hammer 663s 10/19/2021 10:23am
10/19/2021 10:23am
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. Smile

I launch in Map 2, with traction and launch control on (husky 350). I hole shot probably 75% of my drops at PIR this season. Funny tho - PIR is concrete so I don't use the HSD there. On concrete I sit back more to weight the tire and avoid spin. Regardless, starts are some the bike and setup, some technique, and a lot of it is mental. I have a very consistent routine at the gate and I go up there with confidence.

A HS device definitely allows me to launch harder, at a higher RPM and still keep the front down under heavy acceleration. When I do practice starts w/ and w/o there is a clear difference. I find they are of no value on concrete since it makes the back too light and the bike wants to spin.

Hammer 663s
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yz133rider
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yz133rider 10/19/2021 10:23am
10/19/2021 10:23am
theToothPerry wrote:
I dont feel that way about holeshot devices, but I get irked when a tall guy is using starting blocks.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You mean like this... :lol: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/09/24/511590/s1200_242664723_403219831380478_637460684225728081_n.jpg[/img]
You mean like this... Grinning

You know why they do it right? Their body position won’t have to move much at all to get their feet on the pegs and keeping them more stable, connected to the bike etc.
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Forty
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Forty 10/19/2021 10:28am
10/19/2021 10:28am
There is big money in bolt on stuff we don’t need. I’ll bet the average rider spends $2500.00 over and above purchase price for things like starting devices etc.
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murph783
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murph783 10/19/2021 10:35am
10/19/2021 10:35am
Hammer 663s wrote:
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. :) I launch in Map 2, with...
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. Smile

I launch in Map 2, with traction and launch control on (husky 350). I hole shot probably 75% of my drops at PIR this season. Funny tho - PIR is concrete so I don't use the HSD there. On concrete I sit back more to weight the tire and avoid spin. Regardless, starts are some the bike and setup, some technique, and a lot of it is mental. I have a very consistent routine at the gate and I go up there with confidence.

A HS device definitely allows me to launch harder, at a higher RPM and still keep the front down under heavy acceleration. When I do practice starts w/ and w/o there is a clear difference. I find they are of no value on concrete since it makes the back too light and the bike wants to spin.

Hammer 663s
I definitely don’t find it to be an advantage on concrete, I use the same technique you described. But I wonder if it’s a disadvantage? Cause it does make me a little more stable so I’d like to. Never tried it before
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LouisianaMotocross 10/19/2021 10:48am
10/19/2021 10:48am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
I use one but would love if they banned them.
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jamiechapman418 10/19/2021 10:57am
10/19/2021 10:57am
Couldn’t the same thing be said about absolutely any aftermarket performance part?
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byke
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byke 10/19/2021 10:58am
10/19/2021 10:58am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
Also think they're silly, even more so now that everyone uses them, and also at the local level. I don't think they should be banned in pro racing, because...what's the point? Now that everyone has one, it's the same as not having them, so all you'd be doing is hurting the businesses that sell them.
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theToothPerry
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theToothPerry 10/19/2021 11:01am
10/19/2021 11:01am
yz133rider wrote:
You know why they do it right? Their body position won’t have to move much at all to get their feet on the pegs and keeping...
You know why they do it right? Their body position won’t have to move much at all to get their feet on the pegs and keeping them more stable, connected to the bike etc.
Should the mechanics be holding them up with their feet on the pegs so its even less effort?
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Falcon 10/19/2021 11:08am
10/19/2021 11:08am
Hammer 663s wrote:
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. :) I launch in Map 2, with...
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. Smile

I launch in Map 2, with traction and launch control on (husky 350). I hole shot probably 75% of my drops at PIR this season. Funny tho - PIR is concrete so I don't use the HSD there. On concrete I sit back more to weight the tire and avoid spin. Regardless, starts are some the bike and setup, some technique, and a lot of it is mental. I have a very consistent routine at the gate and I go up there with confidence.

A HS device definitely allows me to launch harder, at a higher RPM and still keep the front down under heavy acceleration. When I do practice starts w/ and w/o there is a clear difference. I find they are of no value on concrete since it makes the back too light and the bike wants to spin.

Hammer 663s
murph783 wrote:
I definitely don’t find it to be an advantage on concrete, I use the same technique you described. But I wonder if it’s a disadvantage? Cause...
I definitely don’t find it to be an advantage on concrete, I use the same technique you described. But I wonder if it’s a disadvantage? Cause it does make me a little more stable so I’d like to. Never tried it before
All the tracks I have raced at have concrete starting gates. The only time I raced from a dirt start was way back when Perris did that... 1990, I think. (That was pre-staring device, and I holeshot, BTW. Wink )

Starting devices essentially lessen your bike's tendency to wheelie under power. On concrete they don't help, because you aren't going to wheelie anyway (unless you are trying to do that on purpose). I can see them being valuable once you hit the dirt, however.
As for an unfair advantage, I don't believe they are. I don't use one, but I don't feel offended if someone next to me is using one.
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JOE_SPROCKETS#1 10/19/2021 11:12am
10/19/2021 11:12am
byke wrote:
Also think they're silly, even more so now that everyone uses them, and also at the local level. I don't think they should be banned in...
Also think they're silly, even more so now that everyone uses them, and also at the local level. I don't think they should be banned in pro racing, because...what's the point? Now that everyone has one, it's the same as not having them, so all you'd be doing is hurting the businesses that sell them.
but a slight weight savings, more rider throttle/clutch control on display, less first turn speed, and like someone said the dangerous fork hang up could be avoided without them if there is no benefit correct?
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murph783
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murph783 10/19/2021 11:35am
10/19/2021 11:35am
Hammer 663s wrote:
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. :) I launch in Map 2, with...
I always use one on dirt starts. I also have a Recluse Radius CX which is almost cheating too. Smile

I launch in Map 2, with traction and launch control on (husky 350). I hole shot probably 75% of my drops at PIR this season. Funny tho - PIR is concrete so I don't use the HSD there. On concrete I sit back more to weight the tire and avoid spin. Regardless, starts are some the bike and setup, some technique, and a lot of it is mental. I have a very consistent routine at the gate and I go up there with confidence.

A HS device definitely allows me to launch harder, at a higher RPM and still keep the front down under heavy acceleration. When I do practice starts w/ and w/o there is a clear difference. I find they are of no value on concrete since it makes the back too light and the bike wants to spin.

Hammer 663s
murph783 wrote:
I definitely don’t find it to be an advantage on concrete, I use the same technique you described. But I wonder if it’s a disadvantage? Cause...
I definitely don’t find it to be an advantage on concrete, I use the same technique you described. But I wonder if it’s a disadvantage? Cause it does make me a little more stable so I’d like to. Never tried it before
Falcon wrote:
All the tracks I have raced at have concrete starting gates. The only time I raced from a dirt start was way back when Perris did...
All the tracks I have raced at have concrete starting gates. The only time I raced from a dirt start was way back when Perris did that... 1990, I think. (That was pre-staring device, and I holeshot, BTW. Wink )

Starting devices essentially lessen your bike's tendency to wheelie under power. On concrete they don't help, because you aren't going to wheelie anyway (unless you are trying to do that on purpose). I can see them being valuable once you hit the dirt, however.
As for an unfair advantage, I don't believe they are. I don't use one, but I don't feel offended if someone next to me is using one.
Very true, I guess I was just thinking along the lines of they’re taking weight off the rear wheel and making it more spin happy. Guess I gotta try it next time I hit a concrete gate!
HD1200
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HD1200 10/19/2021 11:45am
10/19/2021 11:45am
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
Renner153 wrote:
Everyone uses one, so its still a level playing field. You still have to have technique to get the holeshot.
True but why should it be a "Level" playing field? Where is technique and skill involved?
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Richy
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Richy 10/19/2021 11:51am
10/19/2021 11:51am
Holeshot devices, traction control and a launch control button on smooth-power-delivering four strokes... crazy times for sure.
seth505
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seth505 10/19/2021 11:59am
10/19/2021 11:59am
IMO, they are stupid and shouldn't be on bikes.
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byke
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byke 10/19/2021 12:12pm
10/19/2021 12:12pm
byke wrote:
Also think they're silly, even more so now that everyone uses them, and also at the local level. I don't think they should be banned in...
Also think they're silly, even more so now that everyone uses them, and also at the local level. I don't think they should be banned in pro racing, because...what's the point? Now that everyone has one, it's the same as not having them, so all you'd be doing is hurting the businesses that sell them.
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
but a slight weight savings, more rider throttle/clutch control on display, less first turn speed, and like someone said the dangerous fork hang up could be...
but a slight weight savings, more rider throttle/clutch control on display, less first turn speed, and like someone said the dangerous fork hang up could be avoided without them if there is no benefit correct?
I'd agree with banning them if that becomes problematic, but that's pretty rare for now. I'd be more worried about Prado type of cross-jumping incidents, but I don't think they have any rules for that and they probably should.
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miserablebear 10/19/2021 12:19pm
10/19/2021 12:19pm
JOE_SPROCKETS#1 wrote:
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses...
Its a Slow Tuesday and i would like to debate the use of starting devices, I cant see the benefits if everyone on the gate uses them and i actually feel that it is kind of cheating. let me say i never used one but i would think throttle/clutch control would be a skill we as spectators of pro riders would like to see displayed on the start? How does vital feel about them? I'm sure this has been discussed before and I've even mentioned it in other threads. should they be outlawed? When were they first started in racing?

note: I'm sure it still takes skill to hole shot with the device but just seems a little "cheesy".. if you are a racer who uses the device do you feel differently than me?
I agree. They don't make much sense to me and I think starts would be more interesting (and take more skill) without them. They remind of something like flip levers for freestyle riders, where they only activate and use them for one single purpose. I understand they are likely absolutely necessary for freestyle, but something that gets used for one single part of a race doesn't make much sense to me.
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Sandusky26
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Sandusky26 10/19/2021 12:27pm
10/19/2021 12:27pm
theToothPerry wrote:
I dont feel that way about holeshot devices, but I get irked when a tall guy is using starting blocks.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
You mean like this... :lol: [img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2021/09/24/511590/s1200_242664723_403219831380478_637460684225728081_n.jpg[/img]
You mean like this... Grinning

I want to try that.
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