AMA - Oldenburg Frame - Bobby Piazza

fatpurplepanda 2/3/2021 7:53am
2/3/2021 7:53am
My understanding is they have never had alternates for supercross, only motocross. However, IF they do allow them, how the hell would it go to Oldenburg who didn't even race the LCQ (not his fault, but still an objective fact) over Piazza who would be the first in line as an alternate.
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Motofinne
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Motofinne 2/3/2021 7:58am
2/3/2021 7:58am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2021 7:58am
fatpurplepanda wrote:
My understanding is they have never had alternates for supercross, only motocross. However, IF they do allow them, how the hell would it go to Oldenburg...
My understanding is they have never had alternates for supercross, only motocross. However, IF they do allow them, how the hell would it go to Oldenburg who didn't even race the LCQ (not his fault, but still an objective fact) over Piazza who would be the first in line as an alternate.
That is my understanding too. There has been countless of mains with less than 22 riders (less than 20 back in the days), never any alternates.
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DC
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DC 2/3/2021 8:00am
2/3/2021 8:00am
jk367 wrote:
Rider alternates always go down In the event someone doesn’t make it or pulls out so they can ha e a full gate. Been down there...
Rider alternates always go down In the event someone doesn’t make it or pulls out so they can ha e a full gate. Been down there many times for this exact reason. If fifth place isn’t there waiting then they will take sixth place and so on
ti473 wrote:
Exactly! Everyone is up in arms about this whole debacle, but what IF Oldenburg was the only one that showed up to the line as an...
Exactly! Everyone is up in arms about this whole debacle, but what IF Oldenburg was the only one that showed up to the line as an alternate? Maybe he got tipped off that Jett may pull out of the main but it was still a last minute decision technically and he was there and ready. I know it's more common for alternates to show up to the line at outdoors to since it's a 40 man gate and a 2 moto format (more chances of someone missing), so maybe no one shows up as alternates at supercrosses, especially 250, since a) it's not long after the LCQ and b) most of them are rookies and might know any better
RG1 wrote:
Piazza asked twice if they take alternates, they told him no and took his transponder. He would’ve been ready if it was an option
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
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Falcon
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Falcon 2/3/2021 8:16am
2/3/2021 8:16am
If Oldenburg was DQ'ed from the LCQ, then he should not have been allowed to race, period. If he truly just nabbed Jett's gate and took off, that's a black flag and some sort of penalty in my book. What would the AMA do to you or I if we, having not qualified, suited up in the parking lot and blasted down through the tunnel and onto the track as the race began? We'd probably be thrown in jail! (Or maybe they'd just dock us 4 positions???) Woohoo

The open spot should rightfully go to 5th place in the LCQ, then 6th, then 7th, then 8th... all the way back to last place before it is given to anyone else.
Now, why Oldenburg was not allowed to race the LCQ is still blurry as well. What gives?
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GrapeApe
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GrapeApe 2/3/2021 8:18am
2/3/2021 8:18am
I wonder if the AMA would have afforded Piazza the same courtesy if they similarly fugged up his LCQ?
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JBlain619
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JBlain619 2/3/2021 8:18am
2/3/2021 8:18am
DC wrote:
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ...
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
Racer X
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10 min. There have been times in the past where the "show" had to delay because of a red flag situation, weather, etc. It's supposed to be a professional sport and last night the sanctioning body was less than professional in it's handling of this situation. It is more understandable to delay the start of the LCQ for a rules clarification than to arbitrarily place a rider in a main event spot that was not earned.
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DC
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DC 2/3/2021 8:30am
2/3/2021 8:30am
DC wrote:
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ...
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
Racer X
JBlain619 wrote:
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10...
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10 min. There have been times in the past where the "show" had to delay because of a red flag situation, weather, etc. It's supposed to be a professional sport and last night the sanctioning body was less than professional in it's handling of this situation. It is more understandable to delay the start of the LCQ for a rules clarification than to arbitrarily place a rider in a main event spot that was not earned.
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the right frame numbers or not, or whatever the reason... It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment. Whatever the discrepancy, the easier fix to me seems to be "let him race, sort it out afterwards" because you can always pull someone from the results but it's really difficult (and obviously clumsy) to try to put them back in the results when they didn't actually race.

I've been down on the starting gate for live events many, many times and it can be chaotic, especially in today's world.

DC
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StartedTooLate 2/3/2021 8:35am
2/3/2021 8:35am
Dimblewambie wrote:
Bobby Pizza got boned hard..
SydAus wrote:
And u don’t think Oldenburg was? He should have raced in the lcq in the first place
EXACTLY. If the AMA had not screwed Oldenburg, you think Piazza would have been in 5th? He would have been 6th. It was a screw up....and they tried to fix it with another screw up.

The REAL screw up was disqualifying Oldenburg BEFORE the LCQ. That is nuts. Do it after when you have time to get the facts.
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GeorgiePorgie 2/3/2021 8:38am
2/3/2021 8:38am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2021 8:48am
Zoom wrote:
In reality the 5th place guy got in the LCQ already by not allowing Oldenburg to race the LCQ. Once the AMA realized they messed up...
In reality the 5th place guy got in the LCQ already by not allowing Oldenburg to race the LCQ.

Once the AMA realized they messed up by not letting Oldenburg race the LCQ it was the right thing to do, by allowing him to race the Main.
No the right thing to do is Oldenburg mechanic to tell the official it’s the same frame. And his rider is going to race. Otherwise he’s going to file a grievance with riders un——-ooohhhh wait wait wait.

You’re right. ITS THE RIGTHT THING TO DO. Screw over another guy because someone made a rushed call and another group of people just said “well ok I guess we can’t race even though we didn’t change the frame”

Hate on me here but if I was piazza. I woulda walked out and laid in front of tomac or roczen in front of the gate. (If he was there and they told him he couldn’t line up)
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GeorgiePorgie 2/3/2021 8:43am
2/3/2021 8:43am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2021 8:47am
DC wrote:
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ...
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
Racer X
I can see that actually being the case. So then it wasn’t necessarily a case of alternate, just trying to make right a bad call?

But still that was another bad call by giving someone a free ticket to the main without racing an lcq.

Is there, or is there not a rule that says the 5th guy can line up if someone falls off ?
JBlain619
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JBlain619 2/3/2021 8:53am
2/3/2021 8:53am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2021 12:32pm
DC wrote:
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ...
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
Racer X
JBlain619 wrote:
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10...
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10 min. There have been times in the past where the "show" had to delay because of a red flag situation, weather, etc. It's supposed to be a professional sport and last night the sanctioning body was less than professional in it's handling of this situation. It is more understandable to delay the start of the LCQ for a rules clarification than to arbitrarily place a rider in a main event spot that was not earned.
DC wrote:
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the...
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the right frame numbers or not, or whatever the reason... It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment. Whatever the discrepancy, the easier fix to me seems to be "let him race, sort it out afterwards" because you can always pull someone from the results but it's really difficult (and obviously clumsy) to try to put them back in the results when they didn't actually race.

I've been down on the starting gate for live events many, many times and it can be chaotic, especially in today's world.

DC
I agree with your solution as well.

"It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment."
This is exactly my issue with everything when it comes to the rules. Is this a show or a racing competition??? You cannot sacrifice the integrity of the sport to make sure the "show" goes on. To your point, even if Toolie had to run to the trailer to grab his frame number register, impound Oldenburg's bike until it's verified. It wouldn't have taken 10 min to do this. Last night, you had the most recognizable person in the sport, completely bewildered on live tv as to why Oldenburg was on the gate. To top that, they threw the checkered flag a lap early completely confusing both anchors. It was a bad look look for the AMA last night.

DC, you know I have the utmost respect for you and your family for everything you do for this sport we all love. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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stremme12 2/3/2021 8:55am
2/3/2021 8:55am Edited Date/Time 2/3/2021 8:56am
DC wrote:
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ...
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
Racer X
JBlain619 wrote:
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10...
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10 min. There have been times in the past where the "show" had to delay because of a red flag situation, weather, etc. It's supposed to be a professional sport and last night the sanctioning body was less than professional in it's handling of this situation. It is more understandable to delay the start of the LCQ for a rules clarification than to arbitrarily place a rider in a main event spot that was not earned.
DC wrote:
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the...
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the right frame numbers or not, or whatever the reason... It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment. Whatever the discrepancy, the easier fix to me seems to be "let him race, sort it out afterwards" because you can always pull someone from the results but it's really difficult (and obviously clumsy) to try to put them back in the results when they didn't actually race.

I've been down on the starting gate for live events many, many times and it can be chaotic, especially in today's world.

DC
DC,

I understand you believe the LCQ situation should have been handled differently and I totally agree they should have let him race the LCQ and figure it out after. Do you feel the main event could have been handled better? Should he have been allowed to ride the main event without ever qualifying? Just curious where you would stand if this were to happen at an outdoor race and you had to make a decision after realizing a mistake was made.
Austin_Rankin 2/3/2021 9:03am
2/3/2021 9:03am
Out of all of this i think we all have learned to buy some stamping tools and re-stamp the frame to the exact number of race equipment...

... keep the spare stamped bike hidden, and wait the 50 min engine swap time to break it out.


Oh wait thats literally been going on for years.
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Austin_Rankin 2/3/2021 9:06am
2/3/2021 9:06am
In all honesty though, the mistakes were made because there were processing delays due to Covid-19.

Its not that big of a deal, you will still get your televised package but due to covid-19 there will be some errors made!
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LungButter
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LungButter 2/3/2021 9:07am
2/3/2021 9:07am
Austin_Rankin wrote:
Out of all of this i think we all have learned to buy some stamping tools and re-stamp the frame to the exact number of race...
Out of all of this i think we all have learned to buy some stamping tools and re-stamp the frame to the exact number of race equipment...

... keep the spare stamped bike hidden, and wait the 50 min engine swap time to break it out.


Oh wait thats literally been going on for years.
Really?

Do you have any actual evidence of this happening?

I'd love to see it if so....
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soggy
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soggy 2/3/2021 9:11am
2/3/2021 9:11am
I think *hope* that was tongue in cheek
LungButter
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LungButter 2/3/2021 9:13am
2/3/2021 9:13am
soggy wrote:
I think *hope* that was tongue in cheek
I wouldn't put it past the factories to use some 'trickery' to get custom frames through tech, I just find it hard to believe that they are pretending to swap a motor and instead just rolling out an all new bike and nobody has said anything?

Seems pretty far fetched.....
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tuttle425
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tuttle425 2/3/2021 9:16am
2/3/2021 9:16am
I don't understand why the AMA thought it was fishy to change an engine in 45 minutes. Seen it happen multiple times in Supercross.
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soggy
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soggy 2/3/2021 9:19am
2/3/2021 9:19am
soggy wrote:
I think *hope* that was tongue in cheek
LungButter wrote:
I wouldn't put it past the factories to use some 'trickery' to get custom frames through tech, I just find it hard to believe that they...
I wouldn't put it past the factories to use some 'trickery' to get custom frames through tech, I just find it hard to believe that they are pretending to swap a motor and instead just rolling out an all new bike and nobody has said anything?

Seems pretty far fetched.....
Ah I thought you were quoting his covid post. I have no idea about the frames but sounds like it would not be worth the risk, that would be a major violation if caught. I know in Triple Crowns they do let the factories tech 2 bikes.
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Austin_Rankin 2/3/2021 9:25am
2/3/2021 9:25am
Why in the hell would i put evidence on vital mx lol, but yea its not hard to re stamp, i have seen it done alot for insurance purposes! but they were all real world scenarios!
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GeorgiePorgie 2/3/2021 9:28am
2/3/2021 9:28am
Austin_Rankin wrote:
Why in the hell would i put evidence on vital mx lol, but yea its not hard to re stamp, i have seen it done alot...
Why in the hell would i put evidence on vital mx lol, but yea its not hard to re stamp, i have seen it done alot for insurance purposes! but they were all real world scenarios!
Wow.
holeshot413
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holeshot413 2/3/2021 9:29am
2/3/2021 9:29am
Dimblewambie wrote:
Bobby Pizza got boned hard..
Isn’t there a rule about if you’re top 10 in points?
Mr. Afterbar
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Mr. Afterbar 2/3/2021 9:31am
2/3/2021 9:31am
Zoom wrote:
In reality the 5th place guy got in the LCQ already by not allowing Oldenburg to race the LCQ. Once the AMA realized they messed up...
In reality the 5th place guy got in the LCQ already by not allowing Oldenburg to race the LCQ.

Once the AMA realized they messed up by not letting Oldenburg race the LCQ it was the right thing to do, by allowing him to race the Main.
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
No the right thing to do is Oldenburg mechanic to tell the official it’s the same frame. And his rider is going to race. Otherwise he’s...
No the right thing to do is Oldenburg mechanic to tell the official it’s the same frame. And his rider is going to race. Otherwise he’s going to file a grievance with riders un——-ooohhhh wait wait wait.

You’re right. ITS THE RIGTHT THING TO DO. Screw over another guy because someone made a rushed call and another group of people just said “well ok I guess we can’t race even though we didn’t change the frame”

Hate on me here but if I was piazza. I woulda walked out and laid in front of tomac or roczen in front of the gate. (If he was there and they told him he couldn’t line up)
Piazza had no right to be in the main event under any circumstances. They don't take alternates and he finished 5th in the LCQ. Anybody going on about that on here is simply wrong. The issue is the AMA not allowing Oldenburg to race the LCQ then the decision to let him in the main. After the first mistake, what were they to do? Not let Oldenburg race at all even though it was their own fault? I think they did the only thing they could do to make it "right" after not letting him race the LCQ. If you're going to be mad, be mad at the AMA for not letting Oldenburg race the LCQ, not for Piazza not getting in the main.
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DC
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DC 2/3/2021 9:31am
2/3/2021 9:31am
GrapeApe wrote:
I wonder if the AMA would have afforded Piazza the same courtesy if they similarly fugged up his LCQ?
I believe 100% the AMA would have treated Piazza the same. Don't forget that the gate manager down there is John Starling, Justin's dad. He knows privateer life as well as anyone and I have no doubt he treats every rider the same...

Don't believe me? Justin Starling got fifth last night in the 450 LCQ and they took his transponder off too and sent him off too.

DC
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mx317 2/3/2021 9:34am
2/3/2021 9:34am
Austin_Rankin wrote:
Out of all of this i think we all have learned to buy some stamping tools and re-stamp the frame to the exact number of race...
Out of all of this i think we all have learned to buy some stamping tools and re-stamp the frame to the exact number of race equipment...

... keep the spare stamped bike hidden, and wait the 50 min engine swap time to break it out.


Oh wait thats literally been going on for years.
They used to "band" the frame so this couldn't happen.
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DC
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DC 2/3/2021 9:42am
2/3/2021 9:42am
JBlain619 wrote:
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10...
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10 min. There have been times in the past where the "show" had to delay because of a red flag situation, weather, etc. It's supposed to be a professional sport and last night the sanctioning body was less than professional in it's handling of this situation. It is more understandable to delay the start of the LCQ for a rules clarification than to arbitrarily place a rider in a main event spot that was not earned.
DC wrote:
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the...
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the right frame numbers or not, or whatever the reason... It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment. Whatever the discrepancy, the easier fix to me seems to be "let him race, sort it out afterwards" because you can always pull someone from the results but it's really difficult (and obviously clumsy) to try to put them back in the results when they didn't actually race.

I've been down on the starting gate for live events many, many times and it can be chaotic, especially in today's world.

DC
stremme12 wrote:
DC, I understand you believe the LCQ situation should have been handled differently and I totally agree they should have let him race the LCQ and...
DC,

I understand you believe the LCQ situation should have been handled differently and I totally agree they should have let him race the LCQ and figure it out after. Do you feel the main event could have been handled better? Should he have been allowed to ride the main event without ever qualifying? Just curious where you would stand if this were to happen at an outdoor race and you had to make a decision after realizing a mistake was made.
I look at situations like this from the rider's perspective first, having been one in the past.

And what would we have done outdoors? I leave that to the actual officials, and no one wants to prevent anyone from having a chance to compete, and when a mistake is made, or something that is obviously wrong and unexpected, I would hope they do something similar. The rub though is that Oldenburg got on the gate, which was not the plan, and it made a funky situation even more of a problem. I wish they would have managed that a little differently...

Last summer when Zach Osborne's full pump went out and he missed the 450 A timed group at Loretta Lynn's 2, it was a strange circumstance. But since we eliminated the second timed practice session as well as the LCQ due to the rain, I thought it was the right move to let Zach in the 450 B session because we had taken away his other two chances to qualify... It did not go over well with one of the other rider's dads and he let me know, but I told him they would have done the exact same thing if it was his kid, which we would have.

For what it's worth, it was the idea of another privateer's dad, Jeremy Hand's dad Carl, to even have alternates in Pro Motocross because it sucks to see empty gates when there are riders there who just barely didn't make it. I think the SX/MX officials do their best to listen to every rider's concerns or situation.

DC
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DC
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DC 2/3/2021 9:45am
2/3/2021 9:45am
DC wrote:
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ...
I don't believe that there are alternates in SX unless it's a "triple crown" event. The mistake came in not allowing Oldenburg to ride the LCQ and trying to come up with a good alternative--second row--but then when Jett dropped out he took the gate, which someone should have stopped, but it was all probably happening a little fast down on the floor!

DC
Racer X
GeorgiePorgie wrote:
I can see that actually being the case. So then it wasn’t necessarily a case of alternate, just trying to make right a bad call? But...
I can see that actually being the case. So then it wasn’t necessarily a case of alternate, just trying to make right a bad call?

But still that was another bad call by giving someone a free ticket to the main without racing an lcq.

Is there, or is there not a rule that says the 5th guy can line up if someone falls off ?
No, there are no alternates in supercross, with the exception of "triple crown" events. But if someone crashed hard on the sighting lap or his bike broke, I personally would hope that the opportunity was given to the fifth-place LCQ guy, but I'm not sure it happens very often...

DC
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DC
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DC 2/3/2021 9:49am
2/3/2021 9:49am
JBlain619 wrote:
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10...
The alternative should've been doing their due diligence BEFORE the LCQ. If there was a question to the legality of the motorcycle, delay the start 5-10 min. There have been times in the past where the "show" had to delay because of a red flag situation, weather, etc. It's supposed to be a professional sport and last night the sanctioning body was less than professional in it's handling of this situation. It is more understandable to delay the start of the LCQ for a rules clarification than to arbitrarily place a rider in a main event spot that was not earned.
DC wrote:
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the...
Sure, they could have done that, but they also could have just let Oldenburg race and followed up afterwards to find out if they had the right frame numbers or not, or whatever the reason... It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment. Whatever the discrepancy, the easier fix to me seems to be "let him race, sort it out afterwards" because you can always pull someone from the results but it's really difficult (and obviously clumsy) to try to put them back in the results when they didn't actually race.

I've been down on the starting gate for live events many, many times and it can be chaotic, especially in today's world.

DC
JBlain619 wrote:
I agree with your solution as well. "It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every...
I agree with your solution as well.

"It can be hard to have "due diligence" when it's a live show and someone has to check every participant's equipment."
This is exactly my issue with everything when it comes to the rules. Is this a show or a racing competition??? You cannot sacrifice the integrity of the sport to make sure the "show" goes on. To your point, even if Toolie had to run to the trailer to grab his frame number register, impound Oldenburg's bike until it's verified. It wouldn't have taken 10 min to do this. Last night, you had the most recognizable person in the sport, completely bewildered on live tv as to why Oldenburg was on the gate. To top that, they threw the checkered flag a lap early completely confusing both anchors. It was a bad look look for the AMA last night.

DC, you know I have the utmost respect for you and your family for everything you do for this sport we all love. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Thanks JBlain, and when I say "live show" I do mean a sporting event on TV. The official made a mistake and when they realized it they tried to do a make-up call, but it kind of backfired when the TV hosts didn't know the whole story of what had happened, just like the white flag situation in the 250 main--the flagman made a mistake in throwing the flag to Craig but no Nichols, as he was under the 15-minute mark by, what, four seconds? That mistake was compounded by the very good Todd Harris not realizing the white flag was waving for everyone else. He was probably watching his monitor and not the actual finish line...

DC
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