Time for this in our sport.

SFellure33
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PA, PA, USA
1/29/2021 5:01am
DK23 wrote:
I think the negative aspect posted before is the cost to privateers. Sure the factory guys can afford them and have someone on the other end...
I think the negative aspect posted before is the cost to privateers. Sure the factory guys can afford them and have someone on the other end, but not so much for the guys living out of a van. Who, by the way, would need it the most since they are the ones usually getting lapped. At least when lap times were in the high 50 seconds.
As for the cost of the Sena in-helmet comms, they're not that expensive. We use them at my job(arborist) everyday. I think they're only like $150-$200, and they come with a great warranty. If they break, you send it in and they send you a brand new set. As for the rules of the sport, they are not set up to make racing fair between the privateers and factory teams, and that's ok in my opinion. So why would they worry about if a privateer can afford a $150-200 comms system, when they dont care that factory teams are spending 10's of thousands a weekend on parts, set up, etc., compared to a privateer, who might change their clickers on their suspension.

It would be cool if the AMA would provide the in-helmet comms, but I personally believe pigs will fly before the AMA does anything to elevate the sport.
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DC
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1/29/2021 5:08am
"You either hit this triple or we're going home... Did you not hear me?! Now twist it! Go, go! Wait, go left, he's right behind you! Sorry. Just pin it through these whoops like I'm telling you, you'll be fine..."

For what it's worth, even in the NFL, where they have limited coms with one player on each side of the football, they shut the headset off as soon as the QB breaks the huddle. I think coms are good for practice and training sessions, especially at places with plenty of traffic but without flaggers, but in an actual race it seems like it could cause as many problems as it's supposed to help.

DC
Racer X
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DoctorJD
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1/29/2021 5:31am
Damn, some narrow-minded people here. It's a wonder this sport has progressed as far as it has.
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EngIceDave
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1/29/2021 5:38am
DC wrote:
"You either hit this triple or we're going home... Did you not hear me?! Now twist it! Go, go! Wait, go left, he's right behind you...
"You either hit this triple or we're going home... Did you not hear me?! Now twist it! Go, go! Wait, go left, he's right behind you! Sorry. Just pin it through these whoops like I'm telling you, you'll be fine..."

For what it's worth, even in the NFL, where they have limited coms with one player on each side of the football, they shut the headset off as soon as the QB breaks the huddle. I think coms are good for practice and training sessions, especially at places with plenty of traffic but without flaggers, but in an actual race it seems like it could cause as many problems as it's supposed to help.

DC
Racer X
I agree.
I know we both have seen some overzealous parents say some crazy things to their kids, and to think of them saying that into an ear piece is just scary.

That's reality

I have seen mini dads reduce their kids to tears because they didn't jump something. I have heard parents say HORRIBLE things to their kids at LL's and other Am Nationals.

Seen it at local and national level.

Even famous names you know
2

The Shop

Bultaco
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1/29/2021 5:41am
A radio in the helmet would have only helped the Deano/Roczen situation if Deano heard and chose to act on the information.

Not that anyone cares, but I ride and race a dirt bike to get away the noise and clutter of the world. No way I bring it into my helmet with me.
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DonM
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1/29/2021 5:42am
I think it needs to be tested...let the riders decide if its a value or not...many riders say they can’t see the pit boards now anyways...
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DC
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1/29/2021 5:51am
DonM wrote:
I think it needs to be tested...let the riders decide if its a value or not...many riders say they can’t see the pit boards now anyways...
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even more complicated and confusing? Do radio comms potentially help more than they might hurt?

Asking for a friend (and his kid).

DC
Racer X
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3
Alan Dove
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1/29/2021 5:52am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 5:53am
DoctorJD wrote:
Damn, some narrow-minded people here. It's a wonder this sport has progressed as far as it has.
The idea progression is a good thing is a fallacy, because in the end you have to submit to not riding a bike at all because it serves no material function. Bikes are excessively dangerous and offer little utility.

There is no need to electronic communication. What we have here is an over-reaction to a minor incident (welcome to the internet). Sometimes riders make mistakes. mistakes are good because without them you have a dull sport, they make the sport interesting. It provides drama and intrigue. It's all everyone is talking about right now. It FUELS the sport.


4
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sybro
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1/29/2021 5:54am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 5:55am
They are allowed in Professional racing in Canada and the series was sponsored by Cardo last summer.

I know a couple of person who uses them and they work great.

The most important thing is to let the rider establish boundaries:

- where on the track is the mechanic allowed to talk
- what information they want to hear and how to communicate it in a quick and precise way

At some tracks the mechanic area is not the best place to receive the information, the communication system allows to choose where you want to receive the information that is usually on the pitboard.

Also some riders are more open to receive more information while racing, while others needs to be more in their ''zone'' and just receive the basics like position and gap behind them, and some don't want to use it at all. It's not for everyone.

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soggy
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1/29/2021 6:06am
Helmet comms are a slippery slope. If it’s just used for lap times/position/rider safety that’s be fine but it be hard to police them not being used for race tactics. The race should be between the racer his bike and the other racers there bikes. Bringing helmet comms in would really change race strategy I think.
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c0ncEpT
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1/29/2021 6:16am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 7:23am
I think its a cool idea.

I think the best way to test it would be where it can only be used as they come by the mechanics area.
3
DonM
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1/29/2021 6:19am
DonM wrote:
I think it needs to be tested...let the riders decide if its a value or not...many riders say they can’t see the pit boards now anyways...
DC wrote:
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even...
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even more complicated and confusing? Do radio comms potentially help more than they might hurt?

Asking for a friend (and his kid).

DC
Racer X
Morning DC....Who knows if it causes confusion or complications...let’s test it to figure that out....I know as a former mechanic it would be a lot easier and effective to push a button and say “plus 5” or “2 laps” or “P5” than hurriedly while looking down to write the same message on a board that by the time I hold it out so the rider may see it the info could be wrong....I doubt the riders would want loads of constant info coming in their ear and they would be the ones to decide what info they want and when....let’s test it, what could it hurt?
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DonM
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1/29/2021 6:22am
soggy wrote:
Helmet comms are a slippery slope. If it’s just used for lap times/position/rider safety that’s be fine but it be hard to police them not being...
Helmet comms are a slippery slope. If it’s just used for lap times/position/rider safety that’s be fine but it be hard to police them not being used for race tactics. The race should be between the racer his bike and the other racers there bikes. Bringing helmet comms in would really change race strategy I think.
If NASCAR can police radio communications on 30+ cars going 200mph I think the AMA could do the same for 22 riders on a SX track....Oh wait....AMA...never mind bad idea....
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1
1/29/2021 6:29am
EngIceDave wrote:
Y'all ever watch mini dads? Ever watch and hear 'em yell to their kids? Ever watch them yell at their kids? Now imagine them doing that...
Y'all ever watch mini dads?
Ever watch and hear 'em yell to their kids? Ever watch them yell at their kids?

Now imagine them doing that shit into a microphone for an entire race
Imagine having to hear that bullshit in your ear an entire race at 6 years old
Angry little elves, they are
1
DC
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1/29/2021 6:38am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 6:42am
DonM wrote:
I think it needs to be tested...let the riders decide if its a value or not...many riders say they can’t see the pit boards now anyways...
DC wrote:
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even...
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even more complicated and confusing? Do radio comms potentially help more than they might hurt?

Asking for a friend (and his kid).

DC
Racer X
DonM wrote:
Morning DC....Who knows if it causes confusion or complications...let’s test it to figure that out....I know as a former mechanic it would be a lot easier...
Morning DC....Who knows if it causes confusion or complications...let’s test it to figure that out....I know as a former mechanic it would be a lot easier and effective to push a button and say “plus 5” or “2 laps” or “P5” than hurriedly while looking down to write the same message on a board that by the time I hold it out so the rider may see it the info could be wrong....I doubt the riders would want loads of constant info coming in their ear and they would be the ones to decide what info they want and when....let’s test it, what could it hurt?
It has been tested, and the feedback we got was that it was more of a nuisance and an added layer of work, and risk, than a benefit. I appreciate that some teams and parents and even racing series could get sponsors for this, but it's got as much downside (confusing the athlete, abusing it at the youth and amateur level) as it does upside (avoiding accidents--if your spotter can actually see them to warn them--and informing riders they are being lapped, as well as the fan experience) in my opinion, as well as the opinion of every other SX/MX series I can think of (EDIT: Unless Sybro above is talking about professional motocross in Canada?) Radios have been around for decades--Team USA used them in the 1988 Motocross des Nations before they were banned--and they just don't offer enough upside to add them in our competitions, in my personal opinion.

Also remember this (and this is no slight to the Deegans) but not everyone's dad/mom/mechanic is a former professional racer--Deegan, Vohland, Vialle, Ferry, Everts, Pichon, etc.--and I personally worry that the inherit advantage of having a seasoned voice on the other end of the radio would be an advantage.

Use them at an open ride day or practice sessions, for safety and instruction if you want, but leave them out of competition. We already have enough to worry about with remote mapping adjustments, drug testing, fuel, tear downs, electronic timing and scoring issues, etc... Policing radio communications doesn't sound easy.

DC
Racer X




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1
jh43
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1/29/2021 6:38am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 6:42am
Someone mentioned earlier about only having audio communication happen down the pit lane. Riders may not read the pit board, but they will hear a time update or a "blue flag warning" and it would become common place if the rider knew it was only happening in a certain section of the track. Even under this type of scenario, I think the Deano incident is avoided and many others as well. Does that make the racing better or worse? I don't know, Only way is to try it out. Better situational awareness of the entire track only seems like a good thing to me. [EDIT; I see DC's post that this has already been tried, sounds like the masses have spoken]
1
GrapeApe
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1/29/2021 6:47am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 6:49am
"He's right in front of you, take him out"

"You sure? Ok."

"Perfect, now stand on his bike"

"dafuq, Dad?"

"I said stand on his bike, and hit his kill switch"

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2
DC
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1/29/2021 6:51am
GrapeApe wrote:
"He's right in front of you, take him out" "You sure? Ok." "Perfect, now stand on his bike" "dafuq, Dad?" "I said stand on his bike...
"He's right in front of you, take him out"

"You sure? Ok."

"Perfect, now stand on his bike"

"dafuq, Dad?"

"I said stand on his bike, and hit his kill switch"

That's a really compelling point!

Let me know what you guys decide here, off to Indy.

DC
Racer X
2
1
Alan Dove
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1/29/2021 6:51am
Honestly why you'd want to remove the raw pure human edge SX/MX has over other forms of motorsport like F1 is beyond me.

Sometimes I wonder if you really understand what you've got. You literally have what is probably the highest level of motorsport competition in the world. Way beyond F1 and all the other headline series (bar maybe MotoGP) and you want to soften it up with radio comms?



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toroP
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1/29/2021 6:54am
LKHill wrote:
NO!
MAYBE!!
1
1
kijen
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1/29/2021 6:56am
Seems like we would all just stop any form of human competition, too much human error. We can do all of this virtually, and even have AI take over for us.....yeah gotta say no thanks, but i dont race, just ride.....curious what the actual pros who race and the one directly impacted think of this?
Zaugg
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1/29/2021 6:58am
I love how all these opinions regarding NASCAR or F1 are discounted for various reason yet I doubt many of you have driven in F1 or NASCAR or any other sport where comms are used.

Until any of you have driven at 100+mph going four wide into turn one at COTA- you have no room to talk about distractions, what is required for concentration, or whether or not comms work. (I have and believe me, the intensity is pretty much at or above the same level as any MX race I've raced.)

So we don't look at it because you're worried about
A. distractions
B. Cost to Privateers
C. Mini Dads yelling at their kids.
(There are ways to control all these perceived end-of-the-world negatives.)

How can you possibly draw any conclusions without testing the idea first? Oh yeah - we jump to conclusions without data and those anecdotal conclusions become fact. (Thanks FACEBAG/ TWITTER/ ALL SOCIAL MEDIA.)

Solution: Develop guidelines and then test. (I'm sure most riders would opt out because they're worried about people talking in their ear at the wrong time yet they've never tried it.) At the pro level - if you can't afford $250 in radios, how the hell can you justify racing. If comms are part of racing and makes the racing safer - which is does - it's like having an approved helmet or using approved fuel. It's the cost of doing business.

God forbid we try to make improvements to MX/SX. The reason our sport isn't growing is because we're so locked into not changing. Meanwhile the rest of the racing world is adapting and changing without us. (Please see Flat Track Racing)

I say we test it out. I for one think it would improve safety because you're not relying on the racer to see a flag (Red/ Yellow/ Blue or otherwise). Race control TELLS you to slow down, not jump, etc or you're penalized, black flagged, or something else. Will it solve the problem of lap traffic. Nope but it will help and it will make racing SAFER!!!

From a spectator perspective, being able to hear comms between mechanic and rider would be a great way to add value to the viewing audience.

Google - Kimi Raikkonen radio comms and then imagine Philthy Phil over the radio. Ratings GOLD.

1
6
DonM
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1/29/2021 6:59am
DC wrote:
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even...
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even more complicated and confusing? Do radio comms potentially help more than they might hurt?

Asking for a friend (and his kid).

DC
Racer X
DonM wrote:
Morning DC....Who knows if it causes confusion or complications...let’s test it to figure that out....I know as a former mechanic it would be a lot easier...
Morning DC....Who knows if it causes confusion or complications...let’s test it to figure that out....I know as a former mechanic it would be a lot easier and effective to push a button and say “plus 5” or “2 laps” or “P5” than hurriedly while looking down to write the same message on a board that by the time I hold it out so the rider may see it the info could be wrong....I doubt the riders would want loads of constant info coming in their ear and they would be the ones to decide what info they want and when....let’s test it, what could it hurt?
DC wrote:
It has been tested, and the feedback we got was that it was more of a nuisance and an added layer of work, and risk, than...
It has been tested, and the feedback we got was that it was more of a nuisance and an added layer of work, and risk, than a benefit. I appreciate that some teams and parents and even racing series could get sponsors for this, but it's got as much downside (confusing the athlete, abusing it at the youth and amateur level) as it does upside (avoiding accidents--if your spotter can actually see them to warn them--and informing riders they are being lapped, as well as the fan experience) in my opinion, as well as the opinion of every other SX/MX series I can think of (EDIT: Unless Sybro above is talking about professional motocross in Canada?) Radios have been around for decades--Team USA used them in the 1988 Motocross des Nations before they were banned--and they just don't offer enough upside to add them in our competitions, in my personal opinion.

Also remember this (and this is no slight to the Deegans) but not everyone's dad/mom/mechanic is a former professional racer--Deegan, Vohland, Vialle, Ferry, Everts, Pichon, etc.--and I personally worry that the inherit advantage of having a seasoned voice on the other end of the radio would be an advantage.

Use them at an open ride day or practice sessions, for safety and instruction if you want, but leave them out of competition. We already have enough to worry about with remote mapping adjustments, drug testing, fuel, tear downs, electronic timing and scoring issues, etc... Policing radio communications doesn't sound easy.

DC
Racer X




I don’t disagree, I was really only thinking of SX not outdoors or amateur as I agree that would be way out of hand and cumbersome...but for SX with the technology that is available it’s worth a test....I don’t think it should be used for flagging, I have my own ideas about that to simplify the issues in SX flagging....
As far as policing if NASCAR can do it SX could too...all coms are monitored by a few officials and all coms are recorded for review if there is an infraction so they identify who did the infraction.
1
toroP
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Cincinnati, OH, USA
1/29/2021 7:01am
DonM wrote:
I think it needs to be tested...let the riders decide if its a value or not...many riders say they can’t see the pit boards now anyways...
DC wrote:
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even...
If they are too focused to look over at their pit boards, doesn't having a constant voice inside their helmet seem like it could be even more complicated and confusing? Do radio comms potentially help more than they might hurt?

Asking for a friend (and his kid).

DC
Racer X
Looking and listening are different. Sorry to state the obvious.
bh84
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Peterborough, ON, CA
1/29/2021 7:02am
Now listen here you young bucks last time we tried something new we ended up with 4 strokes! I'm not falling for that again!

*half of Vital
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1
toroP
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1/29/2021 7:05am
GrapeApe wrote:
"He's right in front of you, take him out" "You sure? Ok." "Perfect, now stand on his bike" "dafuq, Dad?" "I said stand on his bike...
"He's right in front of you, take him out"

"You sure? Ok."

"Perfect, now stand on his bike"

"dafuq, Dad?"

"I said stand on his bike, and hit his kill switch"

But wait, all that happened without comms.
Maybe this would’ve helped.
“Hey goofball, pick up your bike and race”
1
1/29/2021 7:08am
EngIceDave wrote:
I do not want anyone talking in my head while riding
I have enough voices as it is
You ride ? Tongue
slipdog
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Nor Cal, CA, USA
1/29/2021 7:15am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2021 7:16am
I've been using one the last few weeks with my son and he really likes it. Honestly I do too because it's easy to convey calm instructions without yelling from the side of the track shit your kid can't really understand anyway.

I left it in the gearbag this weekend at the races though. He asked why and i just told him on raceday it's time for him to apply what we practiced on his own.
8
1
SteveUrchin
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Laguna Niguel, CA, USA
1/29/2021 7:16am
In a race situation I think the rider would make more mistakes this would break his focus!
8tensolutions
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Salt Lake City, UT, USA
1/29/2021 7:39am
Zaugg wrote:
I love how all these opinions regarding NASCAR or F1 are discounted for various reason yet I doubt many of you have driven in F1 or...
I love how all these opinions regarding NASCAR or F1 are discounted for various reason yet I doubt many of you have driven in F1 or NASCAR or any other sport where comms are used.

Until any of you have driven at 100+mph going four wide into turn one at COTA- you have no room to talk about distractions, what is required for concentration, or whether or not comms work. (I have and believe me, the intensity is pretty much at or above the same level as any MX race I've raced.)

So we don't look at it because you're worried about
A. distractions
B. Cost to Privateers
C. Mini Dads yelling at their kids.
(There are ways to control all these perceived end-of-the-world negatives.)

How can you possibly draw any conclusions without testing the idea first? Oh yeah - we jump to conclusions without data and those anecdotal conclusions become fact. (Thanks FACEBAG/ TWITTER/ ALL SOCIAL MEDIA.)

Solution: Develop guidelines and then test. (I'm sure most riders would opt out because they're worried about people talking in their ear at the wrong time yet they've never tried it.) At the pro level - if you can't afford $250 in radios, how the hell can you justify racing. If comms are part of racing and makes the racing safer - which is does - it's like having an approved helmet or using approved fuel. It's the cost of doing business.

God forbid we try to make improvements to MX/SX. The reason our sport isn't growing is because we're so locked into not changing. Meanwhile the rest of the racing world is adapting and changing without us. (Please see Flat Track Racing)

I say we test it out. I for one think it would improve safety because you're not relying on the racer to see a flag (Red/ Yellow/ Blue or otherwise). Race control TELLS you to slow down, not jump, etc or you're penalized, black flagged, or something else. Will it solve the problem of lap traffic. Nope but it will help and it will make racing SAFER!!!

From a spectator perspective, being able to hear comms between mechanic and rider would be a great way to add value to the viewing audience.

Google - Kimi Raikkonen radio comms and then imagine Philthy Phil over the radio. Ratings GOLD.

Davey stated in this thread they have been tested numerous times. They are also allowed at Monster Cup and most teams didn't use them anyway, so that should tell you something. He also made a good point.....Use them for training and practicing, but not competition. Sounds simple to me.
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