Roczen and anderson docked points

ATKpilot99
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1/20/2021 12:05pm
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1
LungButter
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1/20/2021 12:25pm
Maybe not total communication but an audio alter inside the helmet when there's a red cross could work.
Interesting idea and could work.

This year at Dakar I believe they had an audible warning on the bike to warn them of something super dangerous coming up, they also have an audible warning if a faster car is approaching and needs by.

It would have to be LOUD to be heard during an SX race but it could be another avenue to warn them in certain situations.

What about flashing lights of a different color in the lane leading up to the lane with the Red Cross flag so they would know to be looking for something up ahead?
Zycki11
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1/20/2021 12:43pm
It would help if they actually trained the Flaggers. I understand the “dig dug” aspect. However, I have seen so many situations that the flaggers are more harm than good
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burn1986
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1/20/2021 1:15pm
Wasn’t Tomac the first one to jump there?
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The Shop

mac3-d
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1/20/2021 2:01pm
burn1986 wrote:
Wasn’t Tomac the first one to jump there?
Yes but most likely Red Cross flag was not waved till Eli had passed
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EnvyXx
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1/20/2021 2:38pm
burn1986 wrote:
Wasn’t Tomac the first one to jump there?
mac3-d wrote:
Yes but most likely Red Cross flag was not waved till Eli had passed
I just watched it in slow motion and Eli actually rolls through. But you can see Kenny and Anderson and Davalos for sure jumping.
1/20/2021 3:15pm
The red cross flag should be held stationary, not waved. I saw a yellow, a red cross and a red flag all waving when a couple of riders went down on the start. WTF?
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bigk218
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1/20/2021 8:52pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2021 8:57pm
bigk218 wrote:
The whole flagging situation was pathetic last night.
TeamGreen wrote:
Not to argue or agree. Just reflecting on my thoughts as I watched the video... The guys turnng that corner were NOT looking to the outside...
Not to argue or agree. Just reflecting on my thoughts as I watched the video...

The guys turnng that corner were NOT looking to the outside of the track (where the flag was waving). They were looking at the 1st jump or down the the jump section that Chase was lying in.

Doesn't matter. The Flag was out and waving and those are the rules.

I get it; but, it does seem that we might need to get back to those lighting systems that flash when a rider is down. They seem much better at alerting the riders.

It's a shitty feeling to find yourself in the air with a friend...a rider...on the ground right in front...or worse...right below you.

At Mammoth in 2019, I found myself in the air at the top of the start hill (jumping on to The Bus Stop) and a friend and really good competitor was on the ground right where I was headed to land...
I 'ejected' my bike mid-air and barely glanced him and he ended up being ok.
That moment, where I found myself in the perfect trajectory to land on Ed...it was the shittiest feeling.

Points getting taken...results being changed...it all sucks. But, those are the rules.
Chase NOT getting landed on? I'll take it.
Nooo. Great points man. I completely agree. At the end of the day everyone else saw it and rolled the section. Safety first!

Thinking about it more. My problem is that one Red Cross flag doesn’t stand out when it’s being waved in between yellow flags. If the Red Cross is needed, every flagger in that section should be waving the same flag.
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1/20/2021 10:25pm
why don’t they add a device to all the bike’s ECUs so that they can control the injection from the timing tower and cut power to 25% anytime they need to?

Joking, obviously.

I think Feld puts too much responsibility on the riders here. You had 4 guys who broke the rule, all of which probably didn’t intend to. That tells me the signaling isn’t doing it’s job. Racing motorcycles requires a lot of attention and I cant fault the riders for missing these things. Yes it’s the riders’ responsibilty to heed the flags, but of the 20 riders still on two wheels, 4 missed them which means your safety measures are only garnering about 80% compliance. The red cross flag is there to protect the riders and track crew, not a trap for a points shake-up. The track officials need to change their methods.
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Motofinne
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1/20/2021 11:00pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2021 11:43pm
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're the one that screwed up. What are the odds that Team HRC are the ones protesting if we swap Tomac and Roczen in yesterdays race? Does Roczen come out and defend rider X that failed to see the flag whilst benefiting from it, i say no.

As for the rules. Are you guys really sure you want to add a grey area to these cases? Are you so naive that you think the AMA/FIM are gonna nail the decisions when they're allowed to make subjective calls regarding whether they give out a penalty or not? It would just open a can of worms with horrible and inconsistent officiating.

Not one rider jumps during the red cross flag on purpose, they know they'll get a penalty. So of course he (and all the other riders in all the other cases) didn't see it for whatever reason. But other riders did see it, and i would much rather keep this rule black and white so that it makes sure there wont be any dodgy subjective penalties. Where there could be advancement is the flagging arrangement, how can the people in charge make sure it's even easier for the riders to not miss the flag. It's really important for the safety of the injured rider and the medical crew on the track. bigk218 suggested that all flaggers should have the red cross flag, that would be a start!
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Solli2208
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1/20/2021 11:35pm Edited Date/Time 1/20/2021 11:36pm
Motofinne wrote:
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're...
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're the one that screwed up. What are the odds that Team HRC are the ones protesting if we swap Tomac and Roczen in yesterdays race? Does Roczen come out and defend rider X that failed to see the flag whilst benefiting from it, i say no.

As for the rules. Are you guys really sure you want to add a grey area to these cases? Are you so naive that you think the AMA/FIM are gonna nail the decisions when they're allowed to make subjective calls regarding whether they give out a penalty or not? It would just open a can of worms with horrible and inconsistent officiating.

Not one rider jumps during the red cross flag on purpose, they know they'll get a penalty. So of course he (and all the other riders in all the other cases) didn't see it for whatever reason. But other riders did see it, and i would much rather keep this rule black and white so that it makes sure there wont be any dodgy subjective penalties. Where there could be advancement is the flagging arrangement, how can the people in charge make sure it's even easier for the riders to not miss the flag. It's really important for the safety of the injured rider and the medical crew on the track. bigk218 suggested that all flaggers should have the red cross flag, that would be a start!
But can you explain me why Sexton and several other Riders didn't get a Penalty or a Fine etc. for Jumping and almost hitting Medical Crew while RED FLAG is CLEARLY shown in the Heat Race? The Rulebook says "Reduce speed and proceed safely as directed by a race Official", and no one was slowing down at all and putting a few downed Riders and People from the Medical/Track Crew in unnecessary Risk of getting hit.

There is also a Rule that says "No rider may ride in such a manner as to endanger life or limb of other riders, officials or the public." So you could even argue that Tomac put another Rider in danger by Jumping into the Section, while Sexton was laying down on the Jump hurting, even when no Red Cross Flag is shown.

AMA Officials handling some Situations differently at times, and that will never Change.




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Motofinne
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1/20/2021 11:42pm
Motofinne wrote:
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're...
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're the one that screwed up. What are the odds that Team HRC are the ones protesting if we swap Tomac and Roczen in yesterdays race? Does Roczen come out and defend rider X that failed to see the flag whilst benefiting from it, i say no.

As for the rules. Are you guys really sure you want to add a grey area to these cases? Are you so naive that you think the AMA/FIM are gonna nail the decisions when they're allowed to make subjective calls regarding whether they give out a penalty or not? It would just open a can of worms with horrible and inconsistent officiating.

Not one rider jumps during the red cross flag on purpose, they know they'll get a penalty. So of course he (and all the other riders in all the other cases) didn't see it for whatever reason. But other riders did see it, and i would much rather keep this rule black and white so that it makes sure there wont be any dodgy subjective penalties. Where there could be advancement is the flagging arrangement, how can the people in charge make sure it's even easier for the riders to not miss the flag. It's really important for the safety of the injured rider and the medical crew on the track. bigk218 suggested that all flaggers should have the red cross flag, that would be a start!
Solli2208 wrote:
But can you explain me why Sexton and several other Riders didn't get a Penalty or a Fine etc. for Jumping and almost hitting Medical Crew...
But can you explain me why Sexton and several other Riders didn't get a Penalty or a Fine etc. for Jumping and almost hitting Medical Crew while RED FLAG is CLEARLY shown in the Heat Race? The Rulebook says "Reduce speed and proceed safely as directed by a race Official", and no one was slowing down at all and putting a few downed Riders and People from the Medical/Track Crew in unnecessary Risk of getting hit.

There is also a Rule that says "No rider may ride in such a manner as to endanger life or limb of other riders, officials or the public." So you could even argue that Tomac put another Rider in danger by Jumping into the Section, while Sexton was laying down on the Jump hurting, even when no Red Cross Flag is shown.

AMA Officials handling some Situations differently at times, and that will never Change.




Yeah i think Kellen Brauer touched that on Twitter yesterday. It's completely insane that they only implement these rules in the Main Event. It's a free for all in the heats and LCQs, which is completely wrong.
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1/20/2021 11:51pm
I have a tried to use the old I didn’t see it excuse to get off a speeding ticket , it didn’t work then either
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4
1/21/2021 12:12am
scott_nz wrote:
I have a tried to use the old I didn’t see it excuse to get off a speeding ticket , it didn’t work then either
Using your example, if you are stopped for disobeying a road sign and you can prove in court that the sign was obstructed from your view, your ticket would be dismissed and the municipality would have to pay to remedy the sign. There’s a reason they pay road crews to go out and cut tree branches that overgrow onto road signs. It’s not so they can collect fines, it’s so people don’t crash.
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1/21/2021 12:20am
scott_nz wrote:
I have a tried to use the old I didn’t see it excuse to get off a speeding ticket , it didn’t work then either
Using your example, if you are stopped for disobeying a road sign and you can prove in court that the sign was obstructed from your view...
Using your example, if you are stopped for disobeying a road sign and you can prove in court that the sign was obstructed from your view, your ticket would be dismissed and the municipality would have to pay to remedy the sign. There’s a reason they pay road crews to go out and cut tree branches that overgrow onto road signs. It’s not so they can collect fines, it’s so people don’t crash.
If I was passing a truck that blocked it. It wouldn’t get overturned in court tho

There was no tree branch blocking the Red Cross flag that 14 other riders saw and obeyed
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peltier626
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1/21/2021 4:52am
FLASHING LIGHT SYSTEM. It's been used prior. Have one at the beginning and middle of each section.
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eins4eins
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1/21/2021 5:21am
Flaggers have no fixed positions at the track from what i can tell, as they're running around between lanes and tuff blocks all the time. They could appear everywhere at anytime. Leftside of the track, right side of the track, in the middle of the track, in a corner, before a jump, after a jump, you get it.
That means riders can't look out for flags and have zero chance to anticipate where imprtant signals will be shown.
No one can seriously expect them to notice this small piece of fabric at all times between all those other distractions, when its maybe not at all or only for a fraction of a second visible to them.
If a rider has evidence, that it was too late for him too change his rythm or he couldn't see it at all, he can't be penalized in my opinion.

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str8line
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1/21/2021 6:08am
Imagine trying to look for a flag after a corner while trying to keep a line in sand with riders in front roosting you. A flagger before the corner would help.
5
mac3-d
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1/21/2021 7:08am
burn1986 wrote:
Wasn’t Tomac the first one to jump there?
mac3-d wrote:
Yes but most likely Red Cross flag was not waved till Eli had passed
EnvyXx wrote:
I just watched it in slow motion and Eli actually rolls through. But you can see Kenny and Anderson and Davalos for sure jumping.
I don't know what you watched but Eli jumped the first double out of the sand section
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1/21/2021 8:10am
peltier626 wrote:
FLASHING LIGHT SYSTEM. It's been used prior. Have one at the beginning and middle of each section.
I like this idea. Or have designated spots for a medic/red flag person to sit and make it known at riders meeting. This spot needs to be dependent on the track.

Regardless if they jumped or not, which I don't think they did purposefully, let's be real I don't think any of these guys would want to risk seriously hurting anyone. The spot for the flagger was absolutely stupid. He was hidden, behind the big 180 berm, and standing on top of the first jump 3-5ft higher than everyone else, after a highspeed 20+mph sand turn where the riders not only have limited visibility due to roost, but also have significantly reduced traction. They can't stop on a dime in that stuff, especially with SX suspension, they are basically floating on ice 3 gear wide open.

The AMA should have looked at the track map, observed the locations the day before, and planned out strategic areas where crucial important flaggers should be and then have them relay information to the flagging team AND the riders. If they already do this... well they did a bad job. If they can't seem to figure that out... well they are free to hire me and pay my way to the races and I will gladly render my services. Tongue

This way the riders know as they enter that sand corner balls to the walls, and they see the flag ENTERING the turn, "hey there is something going on in this section, I can't jump until I get past it". It's not rocket science. At some point you can't let the riders take the punishments and not look within the mirror... that won't fix the issue and you are just risking something bad.

And who ever designed that start should be fired/never allowed to design a track again. Do they just sit there and decide, "what can get us good ratings, risk the riders, but we can play victim"?
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kkawboy14
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1/21/2021 1:37pm
Bottom line is: it’s the riders responsibility to ride slow enough to see everything! If they all ride slow enough my guy Tomac will win everything. I like it 😂
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Sideways
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1/21/2021 10:01pm
Motofinne wrote:
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're...
My issue with Roczens post is that where has he been after all the countless of other incidents like this? You open your mouth when you're the one that screwed up. What are the odds that Team HRC are the ones protesting if we swap Tomac and Roczen in yesterdays race? Does Roczen come out and defend rider X that failed to see the flag whilst benefiting from it, i say no.

As for the rules. Are you guys really sure you want to add a grey area to these cases? Are you so naive that you think the AMA/FIM are gonna nail the decisions when they're allowed to make subjective calls regarding whether they give out a penalty or not? It would just open a can of worms with horrible and inconsistent officiating.

Not one rider jumps during the red cross flag on purpose, they know they'll get a penalty. So of course he (and all the other riders in all the other cases) didn't see it for whatever reason. But other riders did see it, and i would much rather keep this rule black and white so that it makes sure there wont be any dodgy subjective penalties. Where there could be advancement is the flagging arrangement, how can the people in charge make sure it's even easier for the riders to not miss the flag. It's really important for the safety of the injured rider and the medical crew on the track. bigk218 suggested that all flaggers should have the red cross flag, that would be a start!
Why would roczen open his mouth in other incidents where he is not involved? Do you see other riders doing that?

Stupid post..
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eins4eins
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1/21/2021 10:41pm Edited Date/Time 1/21/2021 10:44pm
Dobermann wrote:
Hey guys....look this... :-/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKU1AwLoFY6/
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the red-cross flag the moment Tomac passes him. Then he uses the red-cross only before stopping his motions again while other riders pass. No offense at the track crew, he probably just didn't know what to do and wasn't trained any better.

But how could you blame or penalize riders, for not interpreting the confuse signals they can barely see correctly?

And from another point of view: If Tomac would've hit Sexton or crashed into his bike, he probably woud've been pretty pissed for only seeing a yellow flag and not being warned better.



Dobermann
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1/21/2021 11:22pm
Dobermann wrote:
Hey guys....look this... :-/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKU1AwLoFY6/
eins4eins wrote:
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the...
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the red-cross flag the moment Tomac passes him. Then he uses the red-cross only before stopping his motions again while other riders pass. No offense at the track crew, he probably just didn't know what to do and wasn't trained any better.

But how could you blame or penalize riders, for not interpreting the confuse signals they can barely see correctly?

And from another point of view: If Tomac would've hit Sexton or crashed into his bike, he probably woud've been pretty pissed for only seeing a yellow flag and not being warned better.



Yes, correct!
But the problem is the jump of Tomac...:-)
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mac3-d
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1/22/2021 1:12am
Dobermann wrote:
Hey guys....look this... :-/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKU1AwLoFY6/
eins4eins wrote:
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the...
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the red-cross flag the moment Tomac passes him. Then he uses the red-cross only before stopping his motions again while other riders pass. No offense at the track crew, he probably just didn't know what to do and wasn't trained any better.

But how could you blame or penalize riders, for not interpreting the confuse signals they can barely see correctly?

And from another point of view: If Tomac would've hit Sexton or crashed into his bike, he probably woud've been pretty pissed for only seeing a yellow flag and not being warned better.



Dobermann wrote:
Yes, correct!
But the problem is the jump of Tomac...:-)
no red cross flag for Tomac so no foul. He did ride through jump double slower than usual
Crush
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1/22/2021 4:25am
Dobermann wrote:
Hey guys....look this... :-/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKU1AwLoFY6/
eins4eins wrote:
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the...
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the red-cross flag the moment Tomac passes him. Then he uses the red-cross only before stopping his motions again while other riders pass. No offense at the track crew, he probably just didn't know what to do and wasn't trained any better.

But how could you blame or penalize riders, for not interpreting the confuse signals they can barely see correctly?

And from another point of view: If Tomac would've hit Sexton or crashed into his bike, he probably woud've been pretty pissed for only seeing a yellow flag and not being warned better.



Dobermann wrote:
Yes, correct!
But the problem is the jump of Tomac...:-)
No problem at all. The flag wasn’t clearly out and Tomac was already committed.

The yellow was fully there but that is just caution. Not wheels on the ground.
1
Crush
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1/22/2021 4:26am
Dobermann wrote:
Hey guys....look this... :-/

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKU1AwLoFY6/
eins4eins wrote:
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the...
like i said, flagging seems to be totally random. Comes running from nowhere, starts waving the yellow flag, but stops his motion and holds up the red-cross flag the moment Tomac passes him. Then he uses the red-cross only before stopping his motions again while other riders pass. No offense at the track crew, he probably just didn't know what to do and wasn't trained any better.

But how could you blame or penalize riders, for not interpreting the confuse signals they can barely see correctly?

And from another point of view: If Tomac would've hit Sexton or crashed into his bike, he probably woud've been pretty pissed for only seeing a yellow flag and not being warned better.



I am usually pretty critical of shit efforts but he saw a crash, waved a yellow... looked again and saw it was possibly medical and changed to Red Cross. Seems pretty reasonable.
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EngIceDave
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1/22/2021 4:45am
Referee can't worry about what someone may or may not have seen. That adds too much speculation to it.

"You jumped on a red cross"
"But I didn't see it"
"Well, ok then, off you go"

Rules like this needs to be black and white. This is a safety issue.

Whether or not someone cut the track can be argued, but safety rules need to be clear and unwavering regardless of who is involved

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