Safety improvements to work on in SX/MX

Motofinne
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11/30/2020 2:48am
Slow down the average speed. The tracks and bikes are faster than ever yet there hasn't been any advancements in safety and protection except helmets implementing tech that is designed to tackle the concussion issue.

I hope Alpinestars are able to make their Tech Air vest suitable for moto, they already have it in rally. I would hope that it's a matter of time they can offer it to us. I know i will get one when that happens.
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Blackie59
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11/30/2020 6:17am
I'm an old fart and back in the 70's when I raced the tracks were all basically natural terrain with assorted small jumps and of course tons of braking bumps. Today, half of the race the bikes are airborne and the other half on the dirt. My two cents is you need to move the sport away from all the artificially built jumps and tabletops if you're serious about reducing injuries.
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EngIceDave
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11/30/2020 6:28am
Also in all my travels, unless built into the side of a mountain or hill, MX tracks have just become SX tracks. No one builds the 20' tall jump you had to both climb, but not over-jump. Skills and things like that are gone. Build whoops into a sweeping corner or make the first turn a right hander and listen to all the shit you'll hear...and all you're trying to do is challenge the riders. What ever happened to off-cambers and long sweeping berms, not just deep "point and shoot" ruts?

It's those challenges that make MX great and also slows it down.

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peltier626
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11/30/2020 6:35am
American tracks have become a drag race to the next 180 degree corner. The knobs should wear on the outsides of the tires before the center.
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The Shop

wrc777
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11/30/2020 6:46am
Blackie59 wrote:
I'm an old fart and back in the 70's when I raced the tracks were all basically natural terrain with assorted small jumps and of course...
I'm an old fart and back in the 70's when I raced the tracks were all basically natural terrain with assorted small jumps and of course tons of braking bumps. Today, half of the race the bikes are airborne and the other half on the dirt. My two cents is you need to move the sport away from all the artificially built jumps and tabletops if you're serious about reducing injuries.
In Indiana the riders have already voted and off-road race turn outs dwarf MX races. Quite a few of these guys raced MX in the past, but they are tired of the injuries.

Two sand tracks (practice only now) I am thinking of adhere to a more old school track philosophy. They would probably really pack them in if they ran races again.

If there was an old-school, natural terrain 1-1.5 mile track with smaller jumps/rollers etc I wonder how turnouts would be for that track? Basically build a shorter hare scramble type track without the trees. The MX track that is packing in huge turnouts doesn't have huge doubles and triples. The bigger jumps are table tops and natural terrain hills.

I am against limiting the bikes because it will become a game of who can cheat the best or who has the best way to make power with the current rule set. I am in favor of solving the problem through track design and safety equipment. Other than chest/back/helmet there is not a lot you can do on a motorcycle. You can't build a super roll cage with Hans device and build energy absorbing walls into the track for bikes. Would changing track design allow pro riders to be competitive a couple of years longer?
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EngIceDave
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11/30/2020 6:55am
wrc777 wrote:
In Indiana the riders have already voted and off-road race turn outs dwarf MX races. Quite a few of these guys raced MX in the past...
In Indiana the riders have already voted and off-road race turn outs dwarf MX races. Quite a few of these guys raced MX in the past, but they are tired of the injuries.

Two sand tracks (practice only now) I am thinking of adhere to a more old school track philosophy. They would probably really pack them in if they ran races again.

If there was an old-school, natural terrain 1-1.5 mile track with smaller jumps/rollers etc I wonder how turnouts would be for that track? Basically build a shorter hare scramble type track without the trees. The MX track that is packing in huge turnouts doesn't have huge doubles and triples. The bigger jumps are table tops and natural terrain hills.

I am against limiting the bikes because it will become a game of who can cheat the best or who has the best way to make power with the current rule set. I am in favor of solving the problem through track design and safety equipment. Other than chest/back/helmet there is not a lot you can do on a motorcycle. You can't build a super roll cage with Hans device and build energy absorbing walls into the track for bikes. Would changing track design allow pro riders to be competitive a couple of years longer?
Same in Florida.

Turn outs for FTR (Florida Trail Riders) events dwarfs local MX races by large margins, safety is one reason and the other is saddle time (That's another discussion for later)

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EngIceDave
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11/30/2020 6:56am
Here's a thought, look at the tracks used for vintage MX races, and create a hybrid between that and today's tracks.

That would be much safer
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Johnny Ringo
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11/30/2020 7:07am
Make everyone ride an Alta
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yak651
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11/30/2020 7:08am
Good discussions and glad everyone has kept on topic. Thing the topic needs to be separated into pro and amateur changes.

Pro:
High speeds - seems like "modern" sx tracks are designed for "flow" instead of challenging the riders. I'm sure this is to make the sport "look" fast for tv. I feel if we get rid of the flow it would slow things down and maybe make it safer but for sure would lead to complaints from riders. I don't understand the point of the jump on/off obstacles, might as well be a straight away as all the riders are doing them, seems to be a waste of dirt. Also not sure if steeper, more abrupt obstacles would be more dangerous?
Bikes - SX should be 250s only. Think the designers could be a lot more creative with tracks and racing would be better if everyone was on 250s. Can still have 250 "lite" class for people in current 250 class - maybe this is changed to a stock class with suspension mods. Then have 250 "open" for the stars of the sport. I feel the racing would be more competitive on 250s as more people can ride them to their potential, leading to closer racing. Also with track changes you can get back to block passes where people can't do an obstacle if they don't hit a corner right, causing them to lose time.

Am:
Just feel tracks are a little too fast. Shouldn't be 4th (and definitely 5th) gear WFO jumps. No problem with jumps out of corners, doubles, etc. Still have possibility of crashes and getting hurt but with lower speeds when hitting these obstacles severity of injury should be less. I don't have kids but have many friends that do that I ride with. These kids are ripping on 85s and even 65s, the speeds and distances they jump are impressive but even though I'm not their parent I'm concerned watching them sometimes as I've seen what can happen when things go wrong. I can see why moms that are new to the sport would want nothing to do with their son or daughter getting into this sport.
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Johnny Ringo
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11/30/2020 7:54am
Quit building tracks for Pros. Build tracks for vets and 85s.

If pros want big jumps go ride A1.
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kkawboy14
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11/30/2020 8:01am
Another reason why big jumps hurt the local mx scene, nobody wants to show up with their woman and hear their woman say “how come you can’t jump that stuff, that little kid on the 85 is jumping it!” .....”well that kid is the next big thing, I’m just big!” 😀
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EngIceDave
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11/30/2020 8:03am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Another reason why big jumps hurt the local mx scene, nobody wants to show up with their woman and hear their woman say “how come you...
Another reason why big jumps hurt the local mx scene, nobody wants to show up with their woman and hear their woman say “how come you can’t jump that stuff, that little kid on the 85 is jumping it!” .....”well that kid is the next big thing, I’m just big!” 😀
It's why you have "professional practicers"

You can't lose if you never race.

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kkawboy14
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11/30/2020 8:07am Edited Date/Time 11/30/2020 8:08am
kkawboy14 wrote:
Another reason why big jumps hurt the local mx scene, nobody wants to show up with their woman and hear their woman say “how come you...
Another reason why big jumps hurt the local mx scene, nobody wants to show up with their woman and hear their woman say “how come you can’t jump that stuff, that little kid on the 85 is jumping it!” .....”well that kid is the next big thing, I’m just big!” 😀
EngIceDave wrote:
It's why you have "professional practicers"

You can't lose if you never race.

Yep, but the professional practicers mostly pay the local tracks bills! Del Valle had a new guy take it over, he made it just a little hard, not real hard but could not bring the people in, so he shut it down. Back to the original owner, he tamed it down and has better turn out.

I did race Bartow a couple months ago when I was down there but only because I showed up and a race was going on. Other than that man my wife really doesn’t want me to get so into racing anymore, mainly because how much time it robs from everything else.
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11/30/2020 10:25am
Used to be on the local and National scene, promoters prepped the track. They ran practice and hit the track with the dozer and disc. Then in between motos, they would water, disc and hit spots with the dozer.

Seems the new trend in tracks is letting them get a rough as hell, rutted, braking bumps acceleration bumps, etc. Sometimes your jumping a double and landing right into them. I get it that it is motocross, etc etc. I am 51 and been riding and racing since 4. Guys on the local level are not professionals and don't need tracks as rough as some are. Hell, even some of the best racing at the pro level came at tracks like Millville that was not near as rough as any of the other races. So it also produces better battles in many cases.
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Johnny Ringo
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11/30/2020 2:49pm
Did no one see that Alta almost kill a guy at Mini O’s? These things need a clutch good grief
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11/30/2020 3:31pm
Did no one see that Alta almost kill a guy at Mini O’s? These things need a clutch good grief
No. But curious what happened?
11/30/2020 3:40pm
Did no one see that Alta almost kill a guy at Mini O’s? These things need a clutch good grief
So the "Alta" almost killed the guy ? How about the guy almost killed himself and another rider while losing control of a Alta.
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Johnny Ringo
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11/30/2020 3:57pm
Did no one see that Alta almost kill a guy at Mini O’s? These things need a clutch good grief
lostboy819 wrote:
So the "Alta" almost killed the guy ? How about the guy almost killed himself and another rider while losing control of a Alta.
Hey here we are blaming the bikes in this thread. But as soon as an Alta is the topic it’s the riders fault?
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Regis
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11/30/2020 4:20pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2020 4:21pm
Tough debate.

Had this debate years ago. Even got into a war of words (respectfully) with EI Dave.

Slowing the sport down comes to mind, but some of the worst injuries and even our only death in SX came at a slow speed crash. To me, it’s not necessarily the speed, but the abrupt stoping. I know, I sound like captain obvious here, but the sudden impact and stopping is worse then a high speed swap where you actually skip and tumble. Not coming to a sudden stop.

The only person I can recall hitting an object in SX was Carmichael. I believe his bike hit a boat in the infield.

Mandatory safety gear - jeez this is America. It will lead to lawsuits.

Such a tough debate. However, my vote goes to track design. But even that has so many pros and cons it’s crazy.
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11/30/2020 4:40pm
Did no one see that Alta almost kill a guy at Mini O’s? These things need a clutch good grief
lostboy819 wrote:
So the "Alta" almost killed the guy ? How about the guy almost killed himself and another rider while losing control of a Alta.
Hey here we are blaming the bikes in this thread. But as soon as an Alta is the topic it’s the riders fault?
I blame him for not hiring Ryno as his training coach.
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cloud41
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12/1/2020 4:43am
Regardless of what you do, the risk is still there. There are tracks built exceptionally well (relatively small and safe jumps, slow speed, excellent dirt) and they still have injuries. Nothing you do is going to prevent (or even reduce) the risk of injury when people simply don’t know how to ride a dirt bike with the correct technique......this is what it all comes down to.
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8tensolutions
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12/1/2020 5:39am Edited Date/Time 12/1/2020 5:42am
I think it starts with data on what causes the crashes and where they happen. When I think of the worst injuries, most of them were not on huge jumps and several were in corners and on straightaways (Jessy Nelson and Eli Tomac come to mind). Without clear data linked to injuries, it's all speculation.

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EngIceDave
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12/1/2020 6:23am
Regis wrote:
Tough debate. Had this debate years ago. Even got into a war of words (respectfully) with EI Dave. Slowing the sport down comes to mind, but...
Tough debate.

Had this debate years ago. Even got into a war of words (respectfully) with EI Dave.

Slowing the sport down comes to mind, but some of the worst injuries and even our only death in SX came at a slow speed crash. To me, it’s not necessarily the speed, but the abrupt stoping. I know, I sound like captain obvious here, but the sudden impact and stopping is worse then a high speed swap where you actually skip and tumble. Not coming to a sudden stop.

The only person I can recall hitting an object in SX was Carmichael. I believe his bike hit a boat in the infield.

Mandatory safety gear - jeez this is America. It will lead to lawsuits.

Such a tough debate. However, my vote goes to track design. But even that has so many pros and cons it’s crazy.
Hey!

why you.....


LOL

roninho
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12/1/2020 7:48am
The 250cc 2-stroke was the 'kings class' in 1990.
Nowadays we have a kids class for 13-14 year olds racing a bike that has probably the same power, is 20kg lighter and has way better suspension compared to that '90 250cc.
And we have these kids race those faster bikes on tracks with triples, doubles and all kind of spectacular stuff.
The best local 85cc rider easily jump tables that might only done by a couple of gp riders in the 80s.

And that is just kids class. Don't even start about the 450s.

It's increased performance of the bikes, bigger and more spectacular jumps at tracks and very little development in safety.

If i was in charge of regulations i'd look at a combination of:
* Track design:
- less jumps and certainly the big ones
- more slower corners
- overall speed lower
* Bikes:
- significant reduction in power. Performance of the main category should be closer to the performance of a 250 4t or 125cc 2-stroke then to the 450cc 4-stroke. Maybe main category 250 4-t and MX2 the 125cc or a 4stroke equivalent
* Safety:
- safety equipment is not optional but mandated (the F1 drivers all complained about the halo, but it was mandated and sunday it safed Grojeans life)
- Automated yellow flag system (software) mandated for all national level tracks & support programm to get it installed at other tracks as well
- For the netherlands during training: Your license includes a riding level. Split up the training hours into 4 groups per hour (1st quarter youth, 2nd quarter beginner 3rd racer 4th pro) and only allow to ride during your group
- Have an official independent 'safety-rating' for safety gear (helmets etc.). Gear should have a certain minimum safety rating.
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peltier626
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12/1/2020 8:08am
150 open cc lites class and 250 open cc premier class is an excellent start.
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spimx
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12/1/2020 8:43am
There needs to be a more comprehensive and larger scale study of neck braces. Spinal chord injury is the main thing.
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Adam43
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12/1/2020 8:49am
Go back to the roots, natural terrain.

It's becoming a lost art.

Start a series, if you build it they will come.
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RCMXracing
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12/1/2020 10:03am
This topic comes up all the time and I agree with virtually all the comments except pointing at 450’s as part of the problem. These are race bikes, your throttle hand controls the acceleration and speed. If a rider can’t control himself then yes, consider a smaller displacement.

Different topic, but it’s possible that a 450 isn’t the optimal displacement for best lap times. Maybe something around 400cc’s? *shrug*, have to test. Out of a tight turn to a straight all the torque from bigger displacement that gives you that kick in the pants acceleration is always going to be faster. But if you can brake later and turn quicker on a smaller bike that might even things up. Very track dependent.
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Viewsonic
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12/1/2020 10:12am
I wouldn't be certain the promoters of pro racing care about the injuries of the riders. Every ad or promotion of an upcoming event showcases the wrecks, even the sport's own periodicals exploit wrecks on their front covers and in articles pretty regularly, I'm thinking of RacerX's front cover of Ferrandis punting Craig. The promoter's don't really cater the viewership of the races to people who actively race or motorcycle, that audience is too small, they need the crowd who slows when they see a wreck on the side of the road. The promoters showcase the danger and "daredevil" atmosphere, I don't know of any other pro sport that highlights or showcases participants injuries or the danger aspect as much as motocross/supercross.
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