Three views of the Josh Grant incident

zookrider62!
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6/2/2009 1:16pm
Plaid flag. problem solved.
jbomx363
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6/2/2009 1:49pm
Neon Orange with black X ?

With the video posted, that made me change my mind and a penalty is fair.
pilotdude
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6/2/2009 1:56pm
jbomx363 wrote:
Neon Orange with black X ? With the video posted, that made me change my mind and a penalty is fair.
Neon Orange with black X ?

With the video posted, that made me change my mind and a penalty is fair.
Agreed.
6/2/2009 2:18pm
I'd make darn sure someone that was color blind helped pick out the flag patterns. If 90% of the riders see the intended colors, then 10% don't. Murphey's law says that that 10% will be the ones hitting downed riders.

Doesn't matter if the flag looks like diver down, the meatball rising sun, polka-dots, or the Confederate flag- it has to be immediately identifiable by all riders, and can be the only flag being waved in that section.

The Shop

Vet145
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6/2/2009 2:19pm
It should be noted that that jump is bigger and quite a big elevation drop than T.V. coverage shows.....
race
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6/2/2009 2:23pm
Is it possible he first saw the no jump / red flag but then next saw the regular yellow caution flag ... and thought it ( the regular yellow caution flag ) was calling off or was cancelling the no jump / red flag?

If they had both been waving the same no jump / red flag it would have been more clear.








JB 19
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6/2/2009 2:30pm Edited Date/Time 6/2/2009 2:34pm
Glad someone else is making those calls and not me. Thats a tough one. The problem is that there were 2 different flags. You have a split second to see the 1st yel/red flag then, then see the yellow one and think WTF? Should I jump it or no?? Will Alessi jump it? Am I allowed to jump it? Was the red/yel only for the corner???
500guy
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6/2/2009 2:41pm
Here's the transcript of what went down.


The Dude: Walter, ya know, it's Smokey, so his toe slipped over the line a little, big deal. It's just a game, man.
Walter Sobchak: Dude, this is a league game, this determines who enters the next round robin. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?
Smokey: Yeah, but I wasn't over. Gimme the marker Dude, I'm marking it 8.
Walter Sobchak: [pulls out a gun] Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.
The Dude: Walter...
Walter Sobchak: You mark that frame an 8, and you're entering a world of pain.
Smokey: I'm not...
Walter Sobchak: A world of pain.
Smokey: Dude, he's your partner...
Walter Sobchak: [shouting] Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules? Mark it zero!
The Dude: They're calling the cops, put the piece away.
Walter Sobchak: Mark it zero!
[points gun in Smokey's face]
The Dude: Walter...
Walter Sobchak: [shouting] You think I'm fucking around here? Mark it zero!
Smokey: All right, it's fucking zero. Are you happy, you crazy fuck?
Walter Sobchak: ...It's a league game, Smokey.
ChrisB
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6/2/2009 2:46pm
1998 bro.... sayin
wardy
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6/2/2009 4:20pm
put radios in thier helmets it is 2009 ya know and it's a "PRO" event. it's not like a 50 dad screaming at his kid over the radio?

the speeds, the jumps, much of this can be helped it a simple broadcast, "rider down back side of jump such and such.

why no radios in this sport is beyond me who or what are they protecting?

of course I still hope for 2 strokes on a level playing field like 500's and 450's head to head. but i am old and feeble.
Void Main
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6/2/2009 4:55pm
Spike strips.
Void Main
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6/2/2009 5:22pm
Void Main wrote:
Spike strips.
I was joking when I said this (obviously) but the more I think about it the more I wonder if this may be a good idea. Not actual spike strips but something other than a flag such as something being rolled across the track (unroll a banner tape across it, etc). I would absolutely hate to see a replay of the Mike Alessi incident from last year. Mike could have *easily* been killed being landed on by those bikes.

If you are not going to red flag the race (which I don't believe is necessary) you definitely have to do something to prevent a repeat of the Alessi incident. Yes Josh "should" have seen that flag and heeded it but for some reason he didn't do a good enough job of it. Do something that can't be missed like laying a banner down across the track or throwing a handful of those mini orange caution cones out. That would be unusual enough that it would be nearly impossible to miss. Tell them that when they cross that line they have to be in 1st gear until they get past the downed rider.

I realize this idea is a little corny but I think it might be good to think outside the box here for something this important.
BobbyM
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6/2/2009 5:42pm Edited Date/Time 4/17/2016 12:13am
[img]http://gallery.me.com/stusiak/100276/Untitled-1/web.jpg?ver=12439797820001[/img]
some replies in this post need a flag....


i am glad DC is covering the reasons well on here but he shouldn't have to really. that video is more than sufficient and distinct proof that the call to dock was correct. i suspect all 33 saw on that flag was "alessi is gonna pass yer ass so gas it man" that other rider just goes "WTF was that" when 33 passed him in the air.

you can tell grant is afraid of alessis speed at his reaction to that flag...afuckingmazing.
OW38B
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6/2/2009 5:52pm
Clearly a perfect example of how a video can be misleading.

From the front view it looks like it was hard to for JG33 to see the no jump flag and the flagger was close to the lip of the jump.

From the rear it was clear the flagger had the flag out and was 20 feet from the lip and moving the flag somewhat. JG33 should have saw it and not jumped.

Chalk up a good call by the AMA, AMA Pro Racing, DMG, MXSports and whoever else has their hand in the pot of the Nationals decisions.


DC and crew are doing a "bang up" job on the Nationals so far. If only he could get the 250's in the 250 class......................
BobbyM
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6/2/2009 5:53pm
DownSouth wrote:
That second angle sure changed my opinion on the incident. My only guess is that Grant saw it as a yellow flag, not red/yellow. Maybe a...
That second angle sure changed my opinion on the incident.

My only guess is that Grant saw it as a yellow flag, not red/yellow. Maybe a different color is the way to go.
oshow wrote:
Thats my guess too.
maybe a pair of nice titties on a bright neon blacklight background might do the trick....wow.
worcsracer808
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6/2/2009 5:54pm Edited Date/Time 6/2/2009 5:59pm
Yeah it's hard to say because the corner was right in front of the jump they had the guy with the yellow/red in the corner tryin to slow him down, then the guy on the outside in the actual jump/race line waving just a yellow. If it was up to me I'd give Grant the win because he beat Mike straight up, and because they made a mistake by having two different flags out at the same time. What would you do if you saw the white flag in the corner before the finish and the checkers over the finish line jump? pretty confusing huh? Or better yet think of a traffic light you're coming up to at full speed switches to yellow and red at the same time and you get pulled over, you gonna fight that ticket because the light had a problem? damn right you are, I'd let him have his points and in the future instruct the flaggers that they need to make sure they got either all yellows or all yellow/red flags, no mix and matching.
SPYGUY
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6/2/2009 5:55pm
Just wave this and see who slows down:



Might be able to finally identify the gay Suzuki rider.
superorbital
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6/2/2009 6:15pm
I was flagging a local race saturday and some of these dudes racing just seem like they are in the zone. I was on 1/2 of a lane and these guys were coming right at me like I wasn't even there. I was looking them right in the eyes. I was waving the flag and pointing them to the other side of the track and it was like they didn't even see me. Some of the guys ran into the flag.
psychcle
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6/2/2009 7:03pm
Fyi: For anyone considering new flag colors this website might help on why to use certain colors and why not to use them... red means stop! green means go! yellow caution... etc...

http://www.colormatters.com/

or not... just thought it might help save a downed rider or a racers position... ;-)
calimxer91
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6/2/2009 7:17pm
RonSkj
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Fantasy
6/2/2009 7:22pm
I understand why riders can lose respect for the yellow flags. We all have seen yellow flags being displayed, why to far in advance of where the incident actually is at. Riders can see yellow flags before a corner, go around that corner and see nothing then see the flags at the next turn, and still. nothing. Then go 200 more feet another jump and still ( say it with me)... Nothing. One more turn.... and there it is, A guy off the side of the track, trying to start his bike.
mxpimp
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6/2/2009 7:28pm
DownSouth wrote:
That second angle sure changed my opinion on the incident. My only guess is that Grant saw it as a yellow flag, not red/yellow. Maybe a...
That second angle sure changed my opinion on the incident.

My only guess is that Grant saw it as a yellow flag, not red/yellow. Maybe a different color is the way to go.
Where's all your posts now. lol
DownSouth
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6/2/2009 7:38pm
DownSouth wrote:
That second angle sure changed my opinion on the incident. My only guess is that Grant saw it as a yellow flag, not red/yellow. Maybe a...
That second angle sure changed my opinion on the incident.

My only guess is that Grant saw it as a yellow flag, not red/yellow. Maybe a different color is the way to go.
mxpimp wrote:
Where's all your posts now. lol
My posts are in the same place I left them.
4-banger
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6/2/2009 7:54pm
A couple of things I noticed from watching the clip and reading all of DC comments in all the threads.

1. 2 different flags could be very confusing. I understand DC's explanation that only certain officials are given the authority to throw the yellow/red flag but all the flaggers should have it available that once it is thrown then they all have the same flag.

2. Where was the blue flag telling that lapper that the leaders were coming?

3. Did the lapper get penalized because his wheels came off the ground and he jumped half way down the jump?

4. DC states that they are gathering opinions and discussing with people that there may be a change with the color from yellow to white. BINGO there is a problem or why make that statement. So how do you penalize any of the riders? All of them should get their points and spots reinstated. You are saying it yourself DC.

5. When the yellow/red flag is thrown for a certain part of the track and the riders can't jump and need to slow down, how long does that flag stay up for that section? If something happens in front of the leaders and they get the yellow/red flag will that section stay that way until all the riders have passed it otherwise wouldn't a rider 15 or 20 seconds back get an advantage as they may have clear sailing through it.
6/2/2009 8:14pm
I may be behind the times... when did we get this yellow flag with the red triangle in it?

It use to be yellow.. use judgement and no passing

white with red cross... roll everything.

when did it change?
redrider52
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6/2/2009 8:59pm
Camp332 wrote:
JG don't see so good sometimes! Remember when he smashed Ryan Villopoto in the face during that supercross in 2008?
That same race in Atlanta, he was stripped of his heat race win because he jumped the triple when the red flasher were flashing.

The triple he jumped was difficult to do on a 250 and you had to commit to and really rail the turn, and when he came around the corner he didn't see the red flasher till the last second and you could tell he saw it because he chopped the throttle at the last second and cased the triple really hard.
oldx
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6/2/2009 9:31pm
After seeing that second view, I just don't think anyone should miss seeing that flag.
CamP
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6/2/2009 10:54pm
I may be behind the times... when did we get this yellow flag with the red triangle in it? It use to be yellow.. use judgement...
I may be behind the times... when did we get this yellow flag with the red triangle in it?

It use to be yellow.. use judgement and no passing

white with red cross... roll everything.

when did it change?
That's what I was thinking. It's always been roll the jump on a red cross.

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