Do we really want parity?

aees
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7/18/2020 12:36am
Mit12 wrote:
I want challenging tracks, long races and let the best win. Think about it, they got rid of works bikes, they try 3 short races, 20...
I want challenging tracks, long races and let the best win. Think about it, they got rid of works bikes, they try 3 short races, 20 lap mains 20 minute mains joker lanes and somehow the best guys always win. Stop with trying to recreate the wheel just build a challenging track and let them race for 20+1. As for Out doors lets go 45 minute motos.
45min would be so fucking boring. Shorten to 25+2 instead, or 20+20+20+1. Last 10 minutes of a 30+2 race is just a sleeper. If it was a bit shorter maybe someone could put up the tempo for a bit longer and challenge.
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DoctorJD
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7/18/2020 3:59am
Drtbykr wrote:
With parity comes less star power. That being said, Eli through the pack is good racing. Some riders just have “it” on and off the track...
With parity comes less star power. That being said, Eli through the pack is good racing.
Some riders just have “it” on and off the track. IMO, no current racer fits superstar status.
Don’t want to see a 7 year run like Mc’s again though. Tough for most hardcore fans.

Personally I’ll take the close racing. I also agree with poster about seeing greatness.

Win win.

I agree with most of what you said, except this: With parity comes less star power.

David Bailey
Jeff Ward
Broc Glover
Rick Johnson
Johnny Omara
Ron Lechien

There was a time when all of these guys were on the track at the same time.
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kage173
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7/18/2020 5:03am
A dominant champion is only good for bringing in new fans and outside interest.

It sucks for real fans. I hear people talk about how great things used to be. But it was boring as hell with MC and RC. I mean really boring.
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7/18/2020 5:48am
DoctorJD wrote:
I agree with most of what you said, except this: [i]With parity comes less star power.[/i] David Bailey Jeff Ward Broc Glover Rick Johnson Johnny Omara...
I agree with most of what you said, except this: With parity comes less star power.

David Bailey
Jeff Ward
Broc Glover
Rick Johnson
Johnny Omara
Ron Lechien

There was a time when all of these guys were on the track at the same time.
from the best SX race of all time:

All these legends were leading the race at one time:

O'Show
Damon Bradshaw
Guy Cooper
Keidrowski (for a second)
Rick Johnson
Jeff Ward

Mataisavech, Stanton were also near the front. I was in the stands that night freezing my ass off.



The Shop

DoctorJD
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7/18/2020 7:47am
from the best SX race of all time: All these legends were leading the race at one time: O'Show Damon Bradshaw Guy Cooper Keidrowski (for a...
from the best SX race of all time:

All these legends were leading the race at one time:

O'Show
Damon Bradshaw
Guy Cooper
Keidrowski (for a second)
Rick Johnson
Jeff Ward

Mataisavech, Stanton were also near the front. I was in the stands that night freezing my ass off.



Ditto, I was there as well. My girlfriend at the time reluctantly went with me because all of my friends bailed. She took a book to read during the race, but never cracked it open. I can tell you that she, or no one in my section, sat down the entire race.

So yea, the myth that parity means no star power has pretty much been busted.
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Kawi15
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7/18/2020 8:13am
I might be old fashioned and boring, but I think they ought to just prep the tracks and then let them get rough and race it. Let the results be what they are. Why try to manufacture it?
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mxb2
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7/18/2020 8:28am
Mit12 wrote:
I want challenging tracks, long races and let the best win. Think about it, they got rid of works bikes, they try 3 short races, 20...
I want challenging tracks, long races and let the best win. Think about it, they got rid of works bikes, they try 3 short races, 20 lap mains 20 minute mains joker lanes and somehow the best guys always win. Stop with trying to recreate the wheel just build a challenging track and let them race for 20+1. As for Out doors lets go 45 minute motos.
Tarz483 wrote:
What I would like is to See everyone on more equal equipment. Maybe the same horsepower. Or some other way. But when a factory guy falls...
What I would like is to See everyone on more equal equipment. Maybe the same horsepower.
Or some other way. But when a factory guy falls and is back to 3rd 3 laps later. It really make me question the integrity of the race. And wonder would that privateer that just had a career best 10th place finish be battling for the podium if they all had more equal bikes.
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
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7/18/2020 8:46am
mxb2 wrote:
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
idk then why do manufacturers and industry push so hard against allowing 250 vs 250? They don't want their million dollar factory 250F shown up by a 15th place rider on a 15k 250 two stroke.
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-MAVERICK-
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7/18/2020 8:51am Edited Date/Time 7/18/2020 8:52am
mxb2 wrote:
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
idk then why do manufacturers and industry push so hard against allowing 250 vs 250? They don't want their million dollar factory 250F shown up by...
idk then why do manufacturers and industry push so hard against allowing 250 vs 250? They don't want their million dollar factory 250F shown up by a 15th place rider on a 15k 250 two stroke.
The guy that switches from 4t to 2t would still need to know how to ride it properly for the entire motos.

If the 15th place guy doesn't know how to ride it properly, he'll be even further back in the pack.

The only difference is that he won't have to spend as much money on the bike to be competitive with the factory 4t.

I'm all for 250 4t vs 250 2t.
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Racer111
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7/18/2020 9:00am Edited Date/Time 7/18/2020 9:32am
IF every track was like Toronto 2014, greatness would separate itself like it did that night. I’m ALL for that. How inspired were you that night? Who DIDN’T have goosebumps?

Now, when have you had that feeling since then? I’ll argue that Washougal 2018-2019 rides by Tomac we’re close.

Inspiration fuels us all. It’s what makes us push harder and be better. Someone standing out and achieving greatness that you don’t see every day.

Like it or not, racing wouldn’t be what it is today without the dominance of MC that fueled Carmichael and pushed Reed to become what they did. MC, RC and Reed changed racing. Then came JS-259 who then upped the game even more. All these guys were a cut above everyone else. We don’t have that right now and it’s boring. You have the same people doing the same thing every weekend. All 20 riders on the gate are all able to do the same obstacles. The only difference from the front runners is their cornering and whoop speed ability.

Bring back the tracks that separate awe inspiring from great. Our sport will not grow any more until they do.
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mxb2
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7/18/2020 9:04am
mxb2 wrote:
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
idk then why do manufacturers and industry push so hard against allowing 250 vs 250? They don't want their million dollar factory 250F shown up by...
idk then why do manufacturers and industry push so hard against allowing 250 vs 250? They don't want their million dollar factory 250F shown up by a 15th place rider on a 15k 250 two stroke.
Because honda, kawy, suzuki dont care about 2 strokes. It is what it is. Support by buying new 2 strokes.
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7/18/2020 1:34pm Edited Date/Time 7/18/2020 1:38pm
I like dominance. I went to the races to see RC win... WTH does this guy HAVE???? If _I_ were at that level, I'd want to DOMINATE. I'd want to win by 30-45 seconds every race and then drink the blood of my enemies from their skulls on the podium. Their women would THROW themselves at my feet and beg to be with me. At the very LEAST smoke a ciggie and chug a beer before crossing the finish line 'cause you're so far ahead. That's not bad.

If any rider can win.... BFD. Might as well flip a coin and pick the winner that way.

Dominance rules. There's NOTHING boring to me about DOMINANCE. Maybe because I'm a squid myself. History remembers the dominant.



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BigBoreFan58
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7/18/2020 2:35pm
OP makes a great point. I only watched the NBA during Jordans reign.

As far as moto, I like it all. I loved watching MC win, because I loved to watch him ride. RC, I didn't like him, until I did. He wore me down and made me like him. Of course I loved watching JS7 push him and RC being able to respond. RedBud 2007 was an epic battle.

I like close racing but I also enjoy a runaway ride. Glen Coldenhoff at the MXDN at Redbud, historical ride. If you weren't there you missed a guy in the zone and on anther level IMO. Herlings at the Ironman is another ride. JMB had plenty of those rides back in the day. Wyndham, 2003 at Glen Helen, even thought he didn't win, no body had challenged RC in a while.

As a rider myself I can make a boring race fun by analyzing the riders, what they are doing.
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Tarz483
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7/18/2020 3:44pm
Mit12 wrote:
I want challenging tracks, long races and let the best win. Think about it, they got rid of works bikes, they try 3 short races, 20...
I want challenging tracks, long races and let the best win. Think about it, they got rid of works bikes, they try 3 short races, 20 lap mains 20 minute mains joker lanes and somehow the best guys always win. Stop with trying to recreate the wheel just build a challenging track and let them race for 20+1. As for Out doors lets go 45 minute motos.
Tarz483 wrote:
What I would like is to See everyone on more equal equipment. Maybe the same horsepower. Or some other way. But when a factory guy falls...
What I would like is to See everyone on more equal equipment. Maybe the same horsepower.
Or some other way. But when a factory guy falls and is back to 3rd 3 laps later. It really make me question the integrity of the race. And wonder would that privateer that just had a career best 10th place finish be battling for the podium if they all had more equal bikes.
mxb2 wrote:
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
I Dont disagree but why does the better rider also need a better bike? Do you enjoy watching slower cars race faster cars?
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Tarz483
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7/18/2020 3:48pm
As far as parity yes I prefer more parity. I did watch all the career of all thep dominant guys mentioned and I would still watch either way but I like more Parity better.
skypig
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7/18/2020 4:50pm
Motorsport is always expensive, and more money helps.
Motocross is probably the Motorsport where the rider (or driver) makes up the biggest percentage difference compared to the machine.

I think Tomac/Roczen/Webb could probably get a top 10 on a bike like most club racers ride. (Re-valved suspension and remapped ECU).

JM/RC/JS domination was down to the rider. (Most had a team mate on an equal bike.)

Probably the biggest expense (and potentially the difference between teams) is the cost of test tracks and the time spent there.

In the 450 class especially, there seems to be no visible difference in power/speed.
In MotoGP it is not unusual for one works bike to pass another brands best effort on the straight every lap. (Assuming the slower bike/rider can pass somewhere else.)

7/18/2020 5:10pm
I like dominance. I went to the races to see RC win... WTH does this guy HAVE???? If _I_ were at that level, I'd want to...
I like dominance. I went to the races to see RC win... WTH does this guy HAVE???? If _I_ were at that level, I'd want to DOMINATE. I'd want to win by 30-45 seconds every race and then drink the blood of my enemies from their skulls on the podium. Their women would THROW themselves at my feet and beg to be with me. At the very LEAST smoke a ciggie and chug a beer before crossing the finish line 'cause you're so far ahead. That's not bad.

If any rider can win.... BFD. Might as well flip a coin and pick the winner that way.

Dominance rules. There's NOTHING boring to me about DOMINANCE. Maybe because I'm a squid myself. History remembers the dominant.



You idiots that are down-thumbing my post better not ever be on the 2nd or 3rd steps of my podium.

Of course... I have to get on the podium first. And you need to still be there after I get my re-hydration IV.

THEN... you'll be in T-R-U-B-L-E.

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Alex.434
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7/18/2020 5:42pm
I'd be happy to have the announcers and tv production team from that 1990 broadcast back....
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mxb2
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7/18/2020 5:45pm
Tarz483 wrote:
What I would like is to See everyone on more equal equipment. Maybe the same horsepower. Or some other way. But when a factory guy falls...
What I would like is to See everyone on more equal equipment. Maybe the same horsepower.
Or some other way. But when a factory guy falls and is back to 3rd 3 laps later. It really make me question the integrity of the race. And wonder would that privateer that just had a career best 10th place finish be battling for the podium if they all had more equal bikes.
mxb2 wrote:
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
Tarz483 wrote:
I Dont disagree but why does the better rider also need a better bike? Do you enjoy watching slower cars race faster cars?
Because they earned a factory ride. Want a better ride or support. Go faster, win races.
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Tarz483
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7/18/2020 6:01pm
mxb2 wrote:
Top dudes will be the top dudes. A bike not gonna turn a 15th place rider into a contender or even top 20.
Tarz483 wrote:
I Dont disagree but why does the better rider also need a better bike? Do you enjoy watching slower cars race faster cars?
mxb2 wrote:
Because they earned a factory ride. Want a better ride or support. Go faster, win races.
Yes I'm aware that's how it is. I just dont like how big the separation is right now especially in the 250 class.
mxb2
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7/18/2020 7:31pm
Tarz483 wrote:
I Dont disagree but why does the better rider also need a better bike? Do you enjoy watching slower cars race faster cars?
mxb2 wrote:
Because they earned a factory ride. Want a better ride or support. Go faster, win races.
Tarz483 wrote:
Yes I'm aware that's how it is. I just dont like how big the separation is right now especially in the 250 class.
I just want to see the best guys on the badazz factory bikes. I can see top 15-20 place guys locally all day long.
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bents
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Fantasy
7/18/2020 8:08pm
Personally I love domination and waiting for someone to step up and challenge. MC killing everyone-loved it. RC beating everyone into the ground-loved it. Schumacher, Rossi, Everts.......
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mxb2
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7/18/2020 9:51pm
bents wrote:
Personally I love domination and waiting for someone to step up and challenge. MC killing everyone-loved it. RC beating everyone into the ground-loved it. Schumacher, Rossi...
Personally I love domination and waiting for someone to step up and challenge. MC killing everyone-loved it. RC beating everyone into the ground-loved it. Schumacher, Rossi, Everts.......
Bingo
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TDeath21
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7/19/2020 2:11am
You kinda touched on something that I have said for a long time. Tomac is unfairly criticized a lot of times because he's not quite at that all time great elite level the dominant riders were before him. Just a tad bit behind it, as is everyone else. racing right now. But people expect him to be that way and dominate the way they did.

Think about this for a second. This sport went from McGrath to Carmichael to Stewart to Villopoto to Dungey. All without having any gap years between them and with Reed sprinkled there as an elite rider from Carmichael to Villopoto. You can make an argument that McGrath, Carmichael, Stewart, Villopoto, and Dungey are the top 5 ever. Just so we are clear, I'd disagree, but they still have arguments nonetheless. Then Dungey retires. Who is up next that everyone turns to? Tomac obviously. He's unfairly expected to be that guy. And he's just not quite there. There is absolutely zero shame in that whatsoever, because, as I stated, those guys have arguments to be the top 5 ever (on the AMA side). But people expect him to be and that's where that unfair criticism comes from.

What we are seeing right now is what we'd have seen so many years in the 90s without McGrath. A super stacked field, tons of different guys that could win, and championships up for grabs. Same with Carmichael there in the early 00s. People often mistake a dominant rider with a weak field. Remove that dominant rider and we all talk about the parity and how many different contenders we have.
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TDeath21
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7/19/2020 2:17am
bents wrote:
Personally I love domination and waiting for someone to step up and challenge. MC killing everyone-loved it. RC beating everyone into the ground-loved it. Schumacher, Rossi...
Personally I love domination and waiting for someone to step up and challenge. MC killing everyone-loved it. RC beating everyone into the ground-loved it. Schumacher, Rossi, Everts.......
That's why everyone absolutely loved that 06 MX season. Stewart was quite literally doing something we had not seen since early in the 01 season. Someone battling with RC. Save for 6 (I think) motos from Windham and Ferry on that 450 in 03 when Carmichael was on the 250. 6 motos in 4.5 MX seasons (108 motos) where we actually saw someone challenge RC before Stewart showed up on that 450 in 06.
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chadder44
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7/19/2020 4:35am
TDeath21 wrote:
You kinda touched on something that I have said for a long time. Tomac is unfairly criticized a lot of times because he's not quite at...
You kinda touched on something that I have said for a long time. Tomac is unfairly criticized a lot of times because he's not quite at that all time great elite level the dominant riders were before him. Just a tad bit behind it, as is everyone else. racing right now. But people expect him to be that way and dominate the way they did.

Think about this for a second. This sport went from McGrath to Carmichael to Stewart to Villopoto to Dungey. All without having any gap years between them and with Reed sprinkled there as an elite rider from Carmichael to Villopoto. You can make an argument that McGrath, Carmichael, Stewart, Villopoto, and Dungey are the top 5 ever. Just so we are clear, I'd disagree, but they still have arguments nonetheless. Then Dungey retires. Who is up next that everyone turns to? Tomac obviously. He's unfairly expected to be that guy. And he's just not quite there. There is absolutely zero shame in that whatsoever, because, as I stated, those guys have arguments to be the top 5 ever (on the AMA side). But people expect him to be and that's where that unfair criticism comes from.

What we are seeing right now is what we'd have seen so many years in the 90s without McGrath. A super stacked field, tons of different guys that could win, and championships up for grabs. Same with Carmichael there in the early 00s. People often mistake a dominant rider with a weak field. Remove that dominant rider and we all talk about the parity and how many different contenders we have.
I also think that it's getting harder and harder to dominate for a rider today. When the tracks get easier and everyone is doing all the obstacles and running the same lap times, an "off" night for Eli can mean some really bad results. Back in the 90s and early 2000s, an "off" night meant 2nd or 3rd because nobody else was even near the top pace. Eli absolutely passes the eye test as one of the most talented riders ever as far as I'm concerned.
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Mit12
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7/19/2020 12:45pm
Mit12 wrote:
Show me a job that pays millions that is fun! This is professional racing, fun comes at the end of your career.
MotoxTodd wrote:
Larry Flynt ! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Ya getting shot and living in pain the remainder of your life is fun!
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Mit12
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7/19/2020 12:49pm
In SX and MX the bike is just a little piece of the puzzle, so parity is real difficult to produce. Like I said earlier the AMA, FIM have tried lots of things to make racing closer but it simply can’t be done.
charge
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7/19/2020 8:30pm
I think what I like best is two excellent riders pushing each other to new levels ala RC/James or Herlings/Cairoli
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Mit12
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7/20/2020 6:39am
Tarz483 wrote:
I Dont disagree but why does the better rider also need a better bike? Do you enjoy watching slower cars race faster cars?
The best riders earn the chance to ride the best bike. They are also the ones that help develop the bike. Would you want the 15 place guy developing the bikes? I was a upper mid pack pro and If I had Hannaha’s works 250 honda I would have been a upper mid pack pro. The rider is 95% of the equation.
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