Jeremy Martin resurrected the dead horse

fullysicmate 6/9/2020 1:27pm
6/9/2020 1:27pm
There is a lot of things wrong with this, what annoys me is he literally said on Pulp that he wants to be the best and win races...then directly after said he doesn't want to have to race guys like Tomac...I would rather he said I want to win the boys class cause the men are too fast for me. The sponsors can't be happy, I wouldn't blame them for pulling out.
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Mit12
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Mit12 6/9/2020 3:19pm
6/9/2020 3:19pm
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
The problem is each year you have two 250 champions and two or three more that are almost as good that have no ware to go when they point out. Watching the 250 class now shows that there is a need for a 250 SX championship not two regional champions.
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Frank Tuesday 6/9/2020 3:49pm
6/9/2020 3:49pm
Mit12 wrote:
The problem is each year you have two 250 champions and two or three more that are almost as good that have no ware to go...
The problem is each year you have two 250 champions and two or three more that are almost as good that have no ware to go when they point out. Watching the 250 class now shows that there is a need for a 250 SX championship not two regional champions.
How does reducing it to a single championship make more space for anyone? There are fewer spots for riders to learn SX, which was the entire point in adding the Lites class. And there still won't be room for them in 450s. If they're good enough in 250, they'll get a 450 ride. If they're good enough in 450, they'll keep a 450 ride. Continually having new, younger, and/or less experienced riders beat you isn't the way to get a 450 ride.
RichieW13
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RichieW13 6/9/2020 4:23pm
6/9/2020 4:23pm
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport.

But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021? Didn't they do that with Justin Bogle in 2016?
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Frank Tuesday 6/9/2020 6:55pm
6/9/2020 6:55pm
RichieW13 wrote:
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport. But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021...
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport.

But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021? Didn't they do that with Justin Bogle in 2016?
Because Justin Bogle won the title in his second year, and finished 2nd his third season. In 6 years, Martin's best championship SX finish is 3rd. Their 250 careers aren't on the same level.
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Sully
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Sully 6/9/2020 6:58pm
6/9/2020 6:58pm
Falcon wrote:
This. Someone must have missed the part where it says "Pro" on the riders' pro cards. If you can't hang, don't race pro in any cc...
This.

Someone must have missed the part where it says "Pro" on the riders' pro cards. If you can't hang, don't race pro in any cc class. No pointing out.
Exactly. They're all pros whether they're on a 250 or a 450. And, if there's such an obvious loophole to the current pointing out rule, then why even have it?
Chris_Buehler 6/9/2020 7:10pm
6/9/2020 7:10pm
RichieW13 wrote:
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport. But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021...
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport.

But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021? Didn't they do that with Justin Bogle in 2016?
Frank Tuesday wrote:
Because Justin Bogle won the title in his second year, and finished 2nd his third season. In 6 years, Martin's best championship SX finish is 3rd...
Because Justin Bogle won the title in his second year, and finished 2nd his third season. In 6 years, Martin's best championship SX finish is 3rd. Their 250 careers aren't on the same level.
You're right they aren't on the same level. Martin is a 2-time National Champ. All Bogle has is a regional title
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Frank Tuesday 6/9/2020 8:04pm
6/9/2020 8:04pm
Chris_Buehler wrote:
You're right they aren't on the same level. Martin is a 2-time National Champ. All Bogle has is a regional title
I prefer MX to SX, but SX is what pays the bills, and is the bigger driver in determining who gets contracts. I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse or not.
haydos25
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haydos25 6/9/2020 8:24pm
6/9/2020 8:24pm
RichieW13 wrote:
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport. But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021...
I mostly don't understand the sponsorship side of this sport.

But why wouldn't Geico Honda want to just follow Martin to the 450 class in 2021? Didn't they do that with Justin Bogle in 2016?
Frank Tuesday wrote:
Because Justin Bogle won the title in his second year, and finished 2nd his third season. In 6 years, Martin's best championship SX finish is 3rd...
Because Justin Bogle won the title in his second year, and finished 2nd his third season. In 6 years, Martin's best championship SX finish is 3rd. Their 250 careers aren't on the same level.
I think the actual reason is because Bogle had signed a multi year deal and then pointed out wasn't it? Same as Tickle and Pro Circuit.

These 250 teams don't want the added expense of adding a 450 rider to the team. Especially a mid pack 450 rider that nobody sees, when that same rider can get interviewed every week for podiums/wins/championships if they're on the little bike.

To most casual observers there is no difference between the classes and i'd assume to sponsors its the same. Airtime and sponsor exposure is basically the same whether you in the big class or the little class. Why not aim for the easier one?
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 6/9/2020 8:38pm
6/9/2020 8:38pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Isn’t Mcelrath 27 years old?
-MAVERICK- wrote:
He'll be 26 in August.
That seems pretty old to be in the 250 class based on how these guys around here talk. It’s funny to me that they have selective outrage about age and how long someone should be in the class.
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MJC
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MJC 6/9/2020 9:03pm
6/9/2020 9:03pm
Probably already an idea but I reckon it should be years/points.
~ 6 years or 600 points. Whichever comes first 🤷‍♂️
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GuyB
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GuyB 6/9/2020 9:14pm
6/9/2020 9:14pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect...
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect a few points since he still has about 20 points to go before he points out.
Why waste the time, energy, money, etc., if you're just going to pull off? I don't get the rationale.
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dv12.com
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dv12.com 6/9/2020 9:19pm
6/9/2020 9:19pm
hartebreak wrote:
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat...
This latest news with JMart sitting out is just the latest example of a major flaw in our sport. I know the horse has been beat to death, but somethings gotta change. I get it that the 250 class meant as a stepping stone for riders to get to the 450s or "premier class", but now days, riders doing their 2 to 3 years in 250s and moving up is more the exception than the rule.
The obvious talent and performance gap between the classes now days is nothing like it was back in the 250/125 classes and the 250 class is just as competitive and exciting to watch as the 450s. The AMA and Feld really need to do some brainstorming and figure out a way to make this shit work. The 250 class needs to be on par with the 450s, if a rider wants to stay there and race his entire career, so be it. There has got to be a way for the factories and teams to be able to groom and support young riders on their way up without having this current system. Think of how much good racing our sport has missed out on due to riders throwing races (or sitting out a season) because they couldnt risk getting bumped up.
The 250 class is a stepping stone for the 450 class. The East/West format is good for that. If you make it 1 250 class like the 450, you'll kill the youth of the class and you'll end up with 2 guys per factory supported teams instead of 4. If you want to save the East/West class and have guys move up instead of dragging in the class, there's only 1 solution for me:

SALARY CAP!

Since we talk about JMart, he's making 400-500k base salary without bonuses. With most 450 factory teams being full for 2021, why point out and have to race 450s out of a sprinter van with only gear money? You can't blame the guy. The system is rigged and force the riders who can't get decent paying 450 rides to stay in 250.

If you cap salaries and 250 guys can't make a million bucks racing in the small class, they'll be eager to move up to make a living.

But if they keep paying that much money to 250 guys, $500k salaries, $50k a win and $500k a championship, might as well make it 1 class and get rid of the 3rd and 4th best guys from factory supported teams/privateers struggling to main regional mains/2 tier rookies and the poor...
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KurtJ99
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KurtJ99 6/9/2020 9:26pm
6/9/2020 9:26pm
Rules gotta change. A competitive racer like Martin pulling out isn’t good for anyone - fans, sponsors, rider. Ralph talking about it openly reveals the gaps in the pointing out plan and makes everyone look stupid.
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haydos25
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haydos25 6/9/2020 9:50pm
6/9/2020 9:50pm
dv12.com wrote:
The 250 class is a stepping stone for the 450 class. The East/West format is good for that. If you make it 1 250 class like...
The 250 class is a stepping stone for the 450 class. The East/West format is good for that. If you make it 1 250 class like the 450, you'll kill the youth of the class and you'll end up with 2 guys per factory supported teams instead of 4. If you want to save the East/West class and have guys move up instead of dragging in the class, there's only 1 solution for me:

SALARY CAP!

Since we talk about JMart, he's making 400-500k base salary without bonuses. With most 450 factory teams being full for 2021, why point out and have to race 450s out of a sprinter van with only gear money? You can't blame the guy. The system is rigged and force the riders who can't get decent paying 450 rides to stay in 250.

If you cap salaries and 250 guys can't make a million bucks racing in the small class, they'll be eager to move up to make a living.

But if they keep paying that much money to 250 guys, $500k salaries, $50k a win and $500k a championship, might as well make it 1 class and get rid of the 3rd and 4th best guys from factory supported teams/privateers struggling to main regional mains/2 tier rookies and the poor...
Nailed it.

Salary cap would solve all the issues. Ideally you make it per team. Sign one rider for 500k, or sign 5 riders for 100k each. You choose. Would be great if they could put a cap on how much the teams can spend as well. Give some of the privateers a chance.

Policing it is a whole other issue though, probably a bridge to far for the parties involved.
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WhatsStoppingU 6/9/2020 11:19pm
6/9/2020 11:19pm Edited Date/Time 6/9/2020 11:20pm
haydos25 wrote:
Nailed it. Salary cap would solve all the issues. Ideally you make it per team. Sign one rider for 500k, or sign 5 riders for 100k...
Nailed it.

Salary cap would solve all the issues. Ideally you make it per team. Sign one rider for 500k, or sign 5 riders for 100k each. You choose. Would be great if they could put a cap on how much the teams can spend as well. Give some of the privateers a chance.

Policing it is a whole other issue though, probably a bridge to far for the parties involved.
Yeah, especially since in Feld’s eyes, the riders and teams are entertainers - part of a show, not athletes. There is no organization or mechanism to effect a salary cap. The AMA is a joke.

It’s a great idea, and something obviously needs to change but it’s going to take some soul searching and compromise from the powers that be. Somehow their hands must be forced, but too many involved are fat, happy and don’t want change.
wolf918
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wolf918 6/10/2020 5:01am
6/10/2020 5:01am
fullysicmate wrote:
There is a lot of things wrong with this, what annoys me is he literally said on Pulp that he wants to be the best and...
There is a lot of things wrong with this, what annoys me is he literally said on Pulp that he wants to be the best and win races...then directly after said he doesn't want to have to race guys like Tomac...I would rather he said I want to win the boys class cause the men are too fast for me. The sponsors can't be happy, I wouldn't blame them for pulling out.
I remember a year ago Jeremy said it’s deflating sometimes riding with tomac. He then said well I am on a 250 and he’s on a 450.
Frank Tuesday 6/10/2020 12:33pm
6/10/2020 12:33pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect...
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect a few points since he still has about 20 points to go before he points out.
GuyB wrote:
Why waste the time, energy, money, etc., if you're just going to pull off? I don't get the rationale.
Yes Once you decide you're not going to finish the season, you may as well quit ASAP and start working on getting ready for MX. Why get hurt racing a series you don't care about anymore.

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RichieW13
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RichieW13 6/10/2020 1:04pm
6/10/2020 1:04pm Edited Date/Time 6/10/2020 1:05pm
Spudinki45 wrote:
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect...
But if he pulled off before he got into lappers he could be credited with a DNF and finish around 20-22nd place and would only collect a few points since he still has about 20 points to go before he points out.
GuyB wrote:
Why waste the time, energy, money, etc., if you're just going to pull off? I don't get the rationale.
Frank Tuesday wrote:
Yes Once you decide you're not going to finish the season, you may as well quit ASAP and start working on getting ready for MX. Why...
Yes Once you decide you're not going to finish the season, you may as well quit ASAP and start working on getting ready for MX. Why get hurt racing a series you don't care about anymore.
Serious question: Do the sponsors care? Weren't they essentially funding him/his team to race 9 SX races this year, but instead they only get 6 races for their money?
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RichieW13
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RichieW13 6/10/2020 1:19pm
6/10/2020 1:19pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Get rid of the east vs west and make it one series that you can stay in as long as you want. Let smaller guys or...
Get rid of the east vs west and make it one series that you can stay in as long as you want. Let smaller guys or guys who are better 250 riders make it a career class if they want.

Edit: Plowboy beat me to it.
-MAVERICK- wrote:
Keep East and West, just get rid of the pointing out rule.
It seems like the key is to make everybody want riders to move up: the riders, the teams, the sponsors.

I think the SX program needs to have two classes of racing, because racing just 450's isn't enough entertainment for one night. And, having a 250 program is a way for younger guys to develop their skills.

So the TV show needs to somehow make it obvious there is a difference between the classes. Right now, the average fan probably can't tell a difference between a 250 race and a 450 race except for the names of the riders.

On one of the podcasts Jason Weigandt mentioned how Chase Sexton is probably one of the top-10 most famous supercross riders right now. But since he is in a lower class, shouldn't he theoretically be less famous than the ~20 guys who regularly make the 450 main events?

Just a couple ideas:

What if there were more limitations on the modifications on 250's, so they obviously go slower?

Did sponsors like the old semi-final format, that helped give the more riders in the 5th through 15th range more TV time? (As a fan I miss the semis.)

How about no interviews for the 250 heat winners?

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