2001 CR250 $pecial Restoration Part II - Recreation of a 1999-2000 Japan Honda Factory RC250M

4/15/2020 2:27am
So so so good!!

One comment I have (I may have missed this), is the #17 a replica of a rider or is it your number? I think the font and number itself look too new for the bike personally. I'd love to see it with a big #2 on red backgrounds!
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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/15/2020 5:05am
So so so good!! One comment I have (I may have missed this), is the #17 a replica of a rider or is it your number...
So so so good!!

One comment I have (I may have missed this), is the #17 a replica of a rider or is it your number? I think the font and number itself look too new for the bike personally. I'd love to see it with a big #2 on red backgrounds!
Many thanks Chuck. The #17 is my number and the build is paying homage to HRC rather than any particular rider. Corne already did the #2 build, and I knew the riders for these bikes and personally didn't like #2.. he didn't like foreign riders ("gaijin") and is the guy that said he was going to T-bone Cole Seely for no reason at a Japan grand prix a few years ago and he did. All on video and Seely was pissed as he couldn't figure out why he did that. He came after me once on a muddy track during rainy season in 2000 and lost control of his RC250M which ended up 3 feet under water in a pond on the side of the Honda track in Okegawa (that was Karma!). The HRC mechanics all had to come down and pull the RC out of the little pond. You will never see a red #2 plate on my bike Smile . Ryuichiro Takahama was a nice guy.. he ran #101 in 1999 and #6 in 2000. I didn't know Odagiri because he lived far away in Aomori prefecture, but he was #2 in 1999 and #15 in 2000. If I ran a rider's number it would be one of these 2 guys.

Anyway, I actually already have the #6 red plates made up (see below), but I prefer the nostalgic look of the green plates that were used in 1999 and my bike is closer to the 1999 RC250 although the 1999 and 2000 RC250's were very similar (Japan raced the 2nd gen bikes from 1999). I use Decal Werx and Throttle Jockey backgrounds and it is really hard to match the old fonts exactly, though.


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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/15/2020 11:10pm
Just wow man..... that came out beautiful. What an incredible job.


Looks like a nice Camaro in the background too!
Many thanks.. I am glad this bike is pretty much finished so I can start playing with that Camaro again. It has been parked all winter.
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Helda3
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4/16/2020 12:16am
Is there a reason that the fork caps aren't lined up?
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The Shop

Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/16/2020 2:01am
Helda3 wrote:
Is there a reason that the fork caps aren't lined up?
Yes, the HRC mechanic scribed lines on the fork so they would be installed exactly the same way each time in a manner that allowed him to easily reach each of the bleeder screws through the control cables. There are additional lines scribed on the fork tube for lining up the Showa sticker as the HRC mechanic prepared the bike for each race.

I could have put the tubes in any position, but I decided to put them in the same position the HRC mechanic wanted them, with the scribed line aligning with the part in the upper triple clamp. If you look at the position of the fork caps of all the HRC Japan bikes, they are all in different positions and not lined up symmetrically. Each mechanic had a preference for where they wanted the bleeder screws. You can also see that the mechanic liked to have the position of the screw so he could lay the side of the driver against the bottom of the handlebar as he lined up the blade of the driver with the slot in the bleeder screw. I suppose it helps on a hot day when you are working on the bikes with sweat in your eyes. Nevertheless, it shows you how meticulous the HRC mechanics were and this is what almost defines a works bike.. the meticulous attention to detail, safety wiring things like the oil filler cap to the point of extreme overkill.




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Chance1216
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4/16/2020 2:12am
Well done Mike. I first started following this build just over two years ago. Man, time flies. I’ve learned a lot over that time. Thank you.
Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/16/2020 2:17am
Chance1216 wrote:
Well done Mike. I first started following this build just over two years ago. Man, time flies. I’ve learned a lot over that time. Thank you.
Anytime, pal.. I have been learning, too and just passing on what I learned.
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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/16/2020 2:41am
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L" for right and left, and each of the fork's internal components are marked R and L so the parts stay together. Showa spends a lot of time setting the tolerances of the parts in the works forks.
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Helda3
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4/16/2020 3:13pm
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L"...
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L" for right and left, and each of the fork's internal components are marked R and L so the parts stay together. Showa spends a lot of time setting the tolerances of the parts in the works forks.
Amazing mate, I've gone from page 1 to the end about 5 times since you started this
Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/16/2020 5:26pm
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L"...
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L" for right and left, and each of the fork's internal components are marked R and L so the parts stay together. Showa spends a lot of time setting the tolerances of the parts in the works forks.
Helda3 wrote:
Amazing mate, I've gone from page 1 to the end about 5 times since you started this
Thanks Helda3. If you followed the whole build then you know I wasn't expecting to be able to and wasn't planning to build a complete RC250M.. it was an incremental process going from a very clean restoration with nos oem parts and a couple of HRC parts thrown in, to a few HRC parts with a lot of very nice replica parts and then to all period correct HRC parts so I ended up building the bike a few times over. It was really hard to find the old HRC parts in the beginning but they really came together in the end. Luck had to be part of it, but a lot of searching and a lot of dead ends along the way. I certainly never intended to do the works suspension because of the big jump in the investment and I had my original suspension looking pretty good. It was when I found the nos HRC seat that also happened to be period correct that I decided I had to go all the way. Now not much more to do but enjoy looking at it with friends although I have a couple of small additions to the build in the works that happened accidently a few days ago just when I thought I was definitely done Wink
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Helda3
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4/16/2020 5:36pm
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L"...
In addition to the positioning scribe lines on the fork tubes, I think I mentioned before that the works fork tubes are stamped "R" and "L" for right and left, and each of the fork's internal components are marked R and L so the parts stay together. Showa spends a lot of time setting the tolerances of the parts in the works forks.
Helda3 wrote:
Amazing mate, I've gone from page 1 to the end about 5 times since you started this
Thanks Helda3. If you followed the whole build then you know I wasn't expecting to be able to and wasn't planning to build a complete RC250M...
Thanks Helda3. If you followed the whole build then you know I wasn't expecting to be able to and wasn't planning to build a complete RC250M.. it was an incremental process going from a very clean restoration with nos oem parts and a couple of HRC parts thrown in, to a few HRC parts with a lot of very nice replica parts and then to all period correct HRC parts so I ended up building the bike a few times over. It was really hard to find the old HRC parts in the beginning but they really came together in the end. Luck had to be part of it, but a lot of searching and a lot of dead ends along the way. I certainly never intended to do the works suspension because of the big jump in the investment and I had my original suspension looking pretty good. It was when I found the nos HRC seat that also happened to be period correct that I decided I had to go all the way. Now not much more to do but enjoy looking at it with friends although I have a couple of small additions to the build in the works that happened accidently a few days ago just when I thought I was definitely done Wink
Yeah it's funny going back through it and seeing the EMIG clamps and the bud muffler, then seeing the end result is insane
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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/17/2020 2:23am
Helda3 wrote:
Amazing mate, I've gone from page 1 to the end about 5 times since you started this
Thanks Helda3. If you followed the whole build then you know I wasn't expecting to be able to and wasn't planning to build a complete RC250M...
Thanks Helda3. If you followed the whole build then you know I wasn't expecting to be able to and wasn't planning to build a complete RC250M.. it was an incremental process going from a very clean restoration with nos oem parts and a couple of HRC parts thrown in, to a few HRC parts with a lot of very nice replica parts and then to all period correct HRC parts so I ended up building the bike a few times over. It was really hard to find the old HRC parts in the beginning but they really came together in the end. Luck had to be part of it, but a lot of searching and a lot of dead ends along the way. I certainly never intended to do the works suspension because of the big jump in the investment and I had my original suspension looking pretty good. It was when I found the nos HRC seat that also happened to be period correct that I decided I had to go all the way. Now not much more to do but enjoy looking at it with friends although I have a couple of small additions to the build in the works that happened accidently a few days ago just when I thought I was definitely done Wink
Helda3 wrote:
Yeah it's funny going back through it and seeing the EMIG clamps and the bud muffler, then seeing the end result is insane
Yup.. I ended up with lots of extra nos oem and new replica parts. Certainly added to the costs. I need to have a major yard sale soon Smile
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Andy7
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4/17/2020 2:10pm
Nice bike, always loved the look of factory japanese bikes. Simple yet ever so cool. Have you weighed it?
Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/17/2020 7:39pm
Andy7 wrote:
Nice bike, always loved the look of factory japanese bikes. Simple yet ever so cool. Have you weighed it?
No I haven't weighted it. There is a lot of titanium on the bike, and the silencer, hubs, shock spring, and foot pegs are a lot lighter, but the shift lever and the forks are heavier. I was blown away how heavy the HRC steel shift lever was compared to the aluminum oem lever. HRC used that same shift lever design for decades until about 2014 or 15 or so. The latest HRC shift levers are made from billet titanium.

It is a bit lighter, but I didn't think much about it as it is not as interesting as my 218 pound CRF450. I posted that build several years ago. I will weigh it soon just for the heck of it. I am expecting 211-214 lbs or thereabouts.
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FGR01
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4/17/2020 10:17pm
Many thanks Chuck. The #17 is my number and the build is paying homage to HRC rather than any particular rider. Corne already did the #2...
Many thanks Chuck. The #17 is my number and the build is paying homage to HRC rather than any particular rider. Corne already did the #2 build, and I knew the riders for these bikes and personally didn't like #2.. he didn't like foreign riders ("gaijin") and is the guy that said he was going to T-bone Cole Seely for no reason at a Japan grand prix a few years ago and he did. All on video and Seely was pissed as he couldn't figure out why he did that. He came after me once on a muddy track during rainy season in 2000 and lost control of his RC250M which ended up 3 feet under water in a pond on the side of the Honda track in Okegawa (that was Karma!). The HRC mechanics all had to come down and pull the RC out of the little pond. You will never see a red #2 plate on my bike Smile . Ryuichiro Takahama was a nice guy.. he ran #101 in 1999 and #6 in 2000. I didn't know Odagiri because he lived far away in Aomori prefecture, but he was #2 in 1999 and #15 in 2000. If I ran a rider's number it would be one of these 2 guys.

Anyway, I actually already have the #6 red plates made up (see below), but I prefer the nostalgic look of the green plates that were used in 1999 and my bike is closer to the 1999 RC250 although the 1999 and 2000 RC250's were very similar (Japan raced the 2nd gen bikes from 1999). I use Decal Werx and Throttle Jockey backgrounds and it is really hard to match the old fonts exactly, though.


Don't like #2 ? Are you talking about Odagiri or Atsuta? Pretty sure I know which one based on my experiences!
Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/18/2020 8:31pm
FGR01 wrote:
Don't like #2 ? Are you talking about Odagiri or Atsuta? Pretty sure I know which one based on my experiences!
The one that has a brother that was also a top MX pro and also has a particular dislike for gaijin Wink
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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/18/2020 8:46pm
Andy7 wrote:
Nice bike, always loved the look of factory japanese bikes. Simple yet ever so cool. Have you weighed it?
I just weighed each end with the trusty bathroom scale and came up at 213.4lbs total, about where I thought it would. I think that is about 3 to 4 pounds lighter than stock, but hard to tell as the manufacturers always lied a little on the reported weight.
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Andy7
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4/19/2020 6:51am
I just weighed each end with the trusty bathroom scale and came up at 213.4lbs total, about where I thought it would. I think that is...
I just weighed each end with the trusty bathroom scale and came up at 213.4lbs total, about where I thought it would. I think that is about 3 to 4 pounds lighter than stock, but hard to tell as the manufacturers always lied a little on the reported weight.
I think this shows how crazy a 218 lbs CRF 450 is!! That's the weight of a YZ 250. Awesome job on that one.
Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/19/2020 9:43am
I just weighed each end with the trusty bathroom scale and came up at 213.4lbs total, about where I thought it would. I think that is...
I just weighed each end with the trusty bathroom scale and came up at 213.4lbs total, about where I thought it would. I think that is about 3 to 4 pounds lighter than stock, but hard to tell as the manufacturers always lied a little on the reported weight.
Andy7 wrote:
I think this shows how crazy a 218 lbs CRF 450 is!! That's the weight of a YZ 250. Awesome job on that one.
I actually have a bit more money into the CRF450 as it is very expensive to get the weight down that much.. you have to address everything right down to the seat foam. The 450 has some HRC parts, but not as much as the RC250M build. The modern HRC titanium pegs on the 450 are a fraction of the weight of the titanium pegs on the RC250M. The seat feel like the weight of 1' X 2' piece of regular cardboard. Titanium was very expensive when I did the 450 build, but it is starting to get cheaper now since you have so many sources than can machine it now. Titanium was always an abundant material, just in the past it was hard to machine.

On the 2000 era RC250Ms, they used a lot of steel bolts on the shock linkage and steel nuts with titanium bolts, so I have probably a bit more titanium hardware than the original RC250M's. The 2 piece floating axle on the RC was half titanium and half steel, whereas on my 450 it is all titanium.

You really have to weigh the stock bikes before the weight reduction process because you cant really trust the weight on they give on the marketing brochures. The wet weight (all fluids and half a tank of gas) on a 2001 CR250 is listed as 231 pounds.
H4L
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4/19/2020 10:15am
That’s impressive if you’re able to get the weight down to around 213 lbs..
I don’t remember exactly, but there was about a 10 lb. difference from the 01 2nd gen to the 02 3rd gen CR2.
I had both models brand new & recall noticing a big weight difference when loading & riding the bikes back to back.
JMCR250
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4/19/2020 10:22am
H4L wrote:
That’s impressive if you’re able to get the weight down to around 213 lbs.. I don’t remember exactly, but there was about a 10 lb. difference...
That’s impressive if you’re able to get the weight down to around 213 lbs..
I don’t remember exactly, but there was about a 10 lb. difference from the 01 2nd gen to the 02 3rd gen CR2.
I had both models brand new & recall noticing a big weight difference when loading & riding the bikes back to back.
Same here. I had a Gen 2 250 and replaced it with my current Gen 3 250. The latter feels like a 125 compared to my Gen 2. The attention to weight savings on the Gen 3 is noteworthy -- smaller bolts in many instances, smaller engine, etc. (If only they had stuck with the slightly heavier air boot/air box mating system of the Gen 2!)
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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/19/2020 11:02am
I looked at the the published weights for the 1999, 2001 and 2002 RC250's and the US sales brochures all list all 3 generation Honda CR250's at the exact same weights; 213.8 lbs dry, 231.5 lbs wet.

In reality I think each generation was slightly lighter than the previous, but not by a huge amount.

Looking at the Japanese sales brochures, Honda lists the 1st gens and 2nd gens all at 97kg (213.8 lbs) and the 3rd gens at 96.5kg (212.7 lbs) dry weight.

It is hard to notice a difference of a pound or two on the track. It would have to be a minimum of 6 lbs or more of weigh fairly high up on the bike for me to notice a slight difference.
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H4L
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4/19/2020 1:56pm
I couldn't find the MX article from 02 (possibly archived) on the weight differences from 01 being around 10 lbs., but found this on line.



In ’02 Honda used all sorts of tricks to keep the new CR’s weight down to the absolute minimum. One such trick included removing the traditional brake fluid reservoir in favor of this super-compact rear master cylinder-reservoir combo. While it did save valuable ounces on the bike, its minimal fluid capacity could lead to fading during long moto’s

Certainly helping the Honda’s suspension was its super light weight. At 213 pounds the CR was a full 10 pounds lighter than the average 250 at the time. You could certainly feel that weight on the track, and the CR felt more like a featherweight 125 than a big 250. The ergonomics were also excellent, with a narrow layout and flat seating position that made moving around easy. One interesting change made to the new CR was Honda’s switch to a small integrated rear master cylinder for the rear brake. It was lighter and more compact than the old unit, but brake draggers quickly found it would fade under abuse. In the details department the CR was typical Honda. Everything from the metallurgy of parts, to the fit and finish of the plastic was top notch.


http://pulpmx.com/2013/01/31/gps-classic-steel-42-2002-honda-cr250r/
Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/19/2020 5:06pm Edited Date/Time 4/21/2020 1:27am
H4L wrote:
I couldn't find the MX article from 02 (possibly archived) on the weight differences from 01 being around 10 lbs., but found this on line. In...
I couldn't find the MX article from 02 (possibly archived) on the weight differences from 01 being around 10 lbs., but found this on line.



In ’02 Honda used all sorts of tricks to keep the new CR’s weight down to the absolute minimum. One such trick included removing the traditional brake fluid reservoir in favor of this super-compact rear master cylinder-reservoir combo. While it did save valuable ounces on the bike, its minimal fluid capacity could lead to fading during long moto’s

Certainly helping the Honda’s suspension was its super light weight. At 213 pounds the CR was a full 10 pounds lighter than the average 250 at the time. You could certainly feel that weight on the track, and the CR felt more like a featherweight 125 than a big 250. The ergonomics were also excellent, with a narrow layout and flat seating position that made moving around easy. One interesting change made to the new CR was Honda’s switch to a small integrated rear master cylinder for the rear brake. It was lighter and more compact than the old unit, but brake draggers quickly found it would fade under abuse. In the details department the CR was typical Honda. Everything from the metallurgy of parts, to the fit and finish of the plastic was top notch.


http://pulpmx.com/2013/01/31/gps-classic-steel-42-2002-honda-cr250r/
There is no way that would even be plausible to lose 10 lbs with a model change using the same basic suspension, wheels and basic materials. The gen 3 frame did save 1.1 pounds as claimed by Honda, and the compact rear brake system saved a few more ounces, and Honda is claiming a 1.1 pound net weight savings between the models. It is incredibly hard to save weight with a modern motocross without using expensive materials. $3k worth of titanium bolts and axles only saved 2 pounds on my 450. I have carbon fiber engine stays, fuel tank, etc. to lose that kind of weight.
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FGR01
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4/19/2020 6:12pm
The one that has a brother that was also a top MX pro and also has a particular dislike for gaijin Wink
haha. I never had too much problem with either of the brothers. They always seemed like they kinda liked Gaijin when they came down to Okinawa. Probably because it's a totally different vibe down there and they were out of their element, riding borrowed bikes, etc. But I figured that's who you were talking about as they are both kinda hot-headed. One time in a race me and the older bro were both going for the same line and neither wanted to shut off. I think he found a few trees he didn't anticipate, lol.
4/20/2020 7:14am
H4L wrote:
Hey Tokyo about that global warming debate.. JK.. I just went through the last couple of pages & wanted to say great job on the build...
Hey Tokyo about that global warming debate.. JK..
I just went through the last couple of pages & wanted to say great job on the build so far.. The red anodizing on these works bikes have always stood out to me. Looks like you’re close to getting it done. It is inspiring & hope to someday build something similar with an 02-07 version.
I thought you were going to bring up the broccoli :) Thanks! These old parts are getting harder and harder to find so putting together a...
I thought you were going to bring up the broccoli Smile

Thanks! These old parts are getting harder and harder to find so putting together a complete bike is a challenge. I was very lucky I managed. Corne (Vintage Honda) and Dennis are putting together a nice 2005 McGrath build in their thread over on the Vital build site. I think you have seen that one.. The ultimate last generation RC250M would be the 2004 Japan RC250M ridden by Katsuya. It is a prototype 4th gen frame that never made it to production. It would be awesome if someone copied that bike using a 2008 CRF250 frame to mimic the prototype frame. The frame spars look very similar.





HRC is no longer supporting motocross in Japan. Akira Narita just decided to retire this season and there is a question if there will even be any All Japan MX Nationals this year. Works motocross unobtanium may be breathing its last gasp, but maybe some of us can preserve some HRC history.
Mike,

Sorry I'm brining back this old post but yes I agreed this will be the ultimate weapon and make me thinking (without going full blow HRC because I simply do not have the $$$$$$$ for it. It give me some ideas for a futur built.

Again wonderful job and maybe one day will meet skiing at Jay Peak so I can hear your HRC story!
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FahQ
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4/20/2020 1:49pm
Mike

Watching the ‘99 MXDN in Brazil about 16 mins in, I grabbed some screen shots for you.
Did you ever see those extra screens added to the side panels?



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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/20/2020 3:48pm Edited Date/Time 4/20/2020 3:54pm
Thanks.. those look just like the screen grabs I took from the video last year Smile Looks like we stopped the video in almost the same place...






The Japan factory team didn't run with the vent screens like that in during the Nationals though, Seki Racing MotoRoman did. In the actual nationals, the Japan team ran the vent screens like I documented back a number of pages when I made the modification. This design is related to the R&D behind the holes in the back of the side plate on the 2002+ CR's and is supposed to provide a tiny bit more power by changing the air flow characteristics. What I have on my bike below is what the Japan team used on these bikes. The 4 rivets on the side plate hold the screen in place exactly the same way the Japan team did it...


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Tokyo_Tiddler
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4/21/2020 1:41am Edited Date/Time 4/21/2020 1:49am
Here is a pic I took of the #9 MotoRoman bike being ridden by Takateru Atsuta in 2000 next to Sebastian Tortelli landing from a small muddy double jump at the back section of the Honda track in Okegawa. Akira Narita also rode a 250 for MotoRoman in 2000. You can see the #9 bike has the vents on the side panels something like that of the 1999 MXdN bikes. MotoRoman was sponsored by HRC. HRC went with the route of putting holes in the rear of the side panels rather than an extra slot at the front, as they found in their R&D that the slower moving air from the rear vent had a more positive effect on the power.

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FGR01
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