Piston to cylinder clearance issues

Hoseclamp
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I have a 2002 cr 250. The cylinder is oem with about 60hrs on it. OEM pistons are discontinued. Im a machinest with extensive experiance with measuring devices (mics of all sorts, bore guage, etc) but I am not a pro engine builder. My cylinder measures 2.614 as checked with a dial bore guage calibrated with my ISO 9000 certified OD mics. I ordered a vertex piston (size B, the only size available) that is marked 66.35 = 2.6122 allowing almost .002 clearance, but it actually mics 2.613. Vertex reccomends .0019-.0031 clearance. That would only give me about .001 clearance (half of what they recommend). So I ordered a weisco pro lite. It says that clearance should be .0015 but it also mics right at 2.613 which is also only about .001 clearance. As I understand the forged weisco should allow more clearance for thermal expansion. Why then is their recommended clearance less than the cast vertex? If these are my 2 choices and both are running about .001 clearance which should I put in? The weisco forged is only .0005 tighter than they recommend but seems DANGEROUSLY tight especially for a forged. Or should I put in the cast vertex that is .001 tighter than recommended but probably safer than the forged. Pretty frustrated that neither of these pistons seems to offer the proper clearance. I dont want to (or feel I should have to) send my oem jug out for bore/recoat of only .001 bigger to fit pistons that are made to sloppy tolerances. Also as a second question the weisco metal is in the white but the vertex has a black coating on it. Could I lightly polish about .001 off the OD of the vertex piston? It would remove that black coating but since the weisco dosnt have the same coating would that really be a problem? Or maybe I could polish some material off the weisco to get a little more clearance. Most people seem like they just order a piston and drop it in without even measuring but Im kinda anal about this stuff and feel like I have a problem. Anyone with vast experiance building motors and measuring pistons and cylinders have any advice or thoughts for me? Im not sure what to do.
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Paw Paw 271
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3/18/2020 3:03pm
Where are you measuring the piston and the cylinder?
More than one place?

Paw Paw
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FahQ
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3/18/2020 3:23pm
Is your clearance measured by the difference of your two measurements?
Or did you actually use s feeler gauge on the assembly?
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project racer
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3/18/2020 3:35pm
Pistons ain't round. Measure in various spots.
2

The Shop

Hoseclamp
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3/18/2020 3:40pm
Where are you measuring the piston and the cylinder?
More than one place?

Paw Paw
YES! Thank you Paw Paw for responding. Your one of the 2 people that I first thought of that I would actually feel confident you know what your talking about on this. I measured the piston 90* from wrist pin at about the bottom 1/3 or 1/4 of the piston (the largest part). I also measured the bore at several places all the way down it on both the x and y planes, and also on the exhaust port bridge. My bore mics 2.6137 with 3 prong ID mics but when I check with a dial bore guage compared to my OD mics I get more like 2.614. My bridge has an extra .003-.004 clearance. I did notice about a .0005 bigger section in my bore, right in the middle 90* from the exhaust port (x plane) but the y plane in the middle checks 2.614. The top and bottom of bore both check 2.614 on both planes. I think that puts my bore pretty mich right on factory specs. Has anyones ever tried to make a piston slightly smaller to fit their cylinder rather than the other way around? What is the black coating on the vertex? Lyphaloy or something? Is it necessary? Ive got literally hundreds of dollars wraped up in pistons and Im not real confident in any of them. Cylinders for this bike are discontinued also so I really really dont want to screw this up.
Hoseclamp
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3/18/2020 3:48pm
Pistons ain't round. Measure in various spots.
Aaaaand your the other guy I though of! Haha Thanks for responding. Im aware that they arent round. If I measured anywhere else besides the correct spot I would end up with more clearance and feel safe, but 90* to the wrist pin towards the bottom of skirt is the largest spot leaving me with to little of clearance. I was kinda pissed at vertex for their piston micing almost .001 bigger than marked but they said they have never had anyone complain about this before. I dont know what their manufacturing tolerances are but when we are talking a clearance tolerance of about .001 I think that a piston micing .001 bigger than its marked is an issue. Maybe its just me being picky but the numbers dont add up and Im a professional at measuring stuff. Most people at the track tell me they just order the piston for their bike and throw it in and run it, but because of my trade and the measuring tools I have available I gotta check it.
Hoseclamp
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3/18/2020 3:51pm
FahQ wrote:
Is your clearance measured by the difference of your two measurements?
Or did you actually use s feeler gauge on the assembly?
Difference of measurments. New pistons never even touched the bore. I use feeler blades every day at work and while I have a very good feel for them they dont seem very acurate for round surfaces.
1
3/18/2020 5:11pm
I have ran cylinders at .0015 to .002 before, they were fine, that was with forged wiseco, the coating on the skirt is typically a moly, it will wear in alittle, alot of times if I get a cylinder back and it measures on the tight side like .0015 I will warm the cylinder and piston up in warm water then measure again, I personally would not run anything under .0015", just my opinion.
1
mwmx54
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3/18/2020 6:47pm
The coating on the vertex could be adding some to the diameter, and my understanding is the coating is there to aid in the initial break in period. So maybe it’s meant to wear away, leaving the correct diameter piston. Also, the measurement that they give for the piston could be an average of the piston, considering they typically taper down towards the top of the piston. Ktms service manuals explain how to measure the piston in detail, but I don’t have one handy, plus I’m pretty sure they say to measure in the same spot you measured. id say run the vertex if you have correct clearance from about the center of the piston up, otherwise... I don’t know. What did the piston you removed measure at?
1
Paw Paw 271
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3/18/2020 7:15pm
Sounds like you did all the measurements needed to be sure of your cylinder and piston sizes.
A 100 years ago when I would run into a tight fitting new forged piston in a good bore I would do the following to insure a good fit and long life.
1. Assemble the engine.
2. Do a couple of heat cycles under no load.
3. Pull the cylinder and piston and review for any markings.
4. Sand the piston skirts to a very high gloss and then reassemble.
5. Repeat the heat cycles and repeat the piston inspection and sanding.

Remember that a forged piston will expand at a faster rate than the cylinder so a complete warm up of the engine under no load is very important for each ride. You can also run a tighter fit with the forged piston than a cast unit if you do the proper no load warm up each ride.

Paw Paw
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Momus
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3/19/2020 3:19am
Yeah, run it and check it and polish if necessary. Pistons skirts are pretty seize resistant really if lubrication is good. They effectively thermo regulate by expanding rapidly, transfering heat to the wall through oil molecules and then contracting.
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WEAL
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3/19/2020 3:36am
The cast piston contains more silicium, therefor it is less expanding. The forging of a piston needs a different aluminium alloy with less silicium content. It expands a little bit more and will have more clearance when cold.
When hot, both pistons will have same clearance in the bore.
1
sandman768
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3/19/2020 7:10am
I had this same issue with a very low hr 93 CR125. Cylinder was standard B with no wear. B piston no longer available from Honda. All aftermarket pistons measured to big. I just re-ringed the original piston to get some rides on it. I did a search on google/ eBay/ amazon for the original Honda B piston using the Honda part #. I found the correct piston within a few weeks. Someone, somewhere has your piston.
1
SBD
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3/19/2020 2:37pm
FahQ wrote:
Is your clearance measured by the difference of your two measurements?
Or did you actually use s feeler gauge on the assembly?
Hoseclamp wrote:
Difference of measurments. New pistons never even touched the bore. I use feeler blades every day at work and while I have a very good feel...
Difference of measurments. New pistons never even touched the bore. I use feeler blades every day at work and while I have a very good feel for them they dont seem very acurate for round surfaces.
Do you have access to a CMM at your work ? If so I would check the cylinder in 3 spots with that and see how it compares to your bore gage measurement.
1
c0ncEpT
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3/20/2020 5:23am
The skirt coating will typically lay up .0005-.0010 and isn't taken into consideration with setting up piston to wall. Call the manufacture and ask what the actual grind size is.

Also do NOT try and resize the piston yourself. A piston has cam and barrel cut into the skirts and without the proper skirt turn machine you will ruin the part.

.
3/20/2020 11:23am
If your super concerned with it maybe send cylinder out to get replated and give them piston to fit it.
Hoseclamp
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3/21/2020 5:33am
sandman768 wrote:
I had this same issue with a very low hr 93 CR125. Cylinder was standard B with no wear. B piston no longer available from Honda...
I had this same issue with a very low hr 93 CR125. Cylinder was standard B with no wear. B piston no longer available from Honda. All aftermarket pistons measured to big. I just re-ringed the original piston to get some rides on it. I did a search on google/ eBay/ amazon for the original Honda B piston using the Honda part #. I found the correct piston within a few weeks. Someone, somewhere has your piston.
Good to know Im not the only one.
Hoseclamp
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3/21/2020 5:36am
FahQ wrote:
Is your clearance measured by the difference of your two measurements?
Or did you actually use s feeler gauge on the assembly?
Hoseclamp wrote:
Difference of measurments. New pistons never even touched the bore. I use feeler blades every day at work and while I have a very good feel...
Difference of measurments. New pistons never even touched the bore. I use feeler blades every day at work and while I have a very good feel for them they dont seem very acurate for round surfaces.
SBD wrote:
Do you have access to a CMM at your work ? If so I would check the cylinder in 3 spots with that and see how...
Do you have access to a CMM at your work ? If so I would check the cylinder in 3 spots with that and see how it compares to your bore gage measurement.
The CMM seems like a great idea! We have several at work but I havnt run one in about 16 years. I trust my tools and my skill at using them enough that I dont think a cmm is necessary.
Momus
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3/21/2020 6:10am
CMM to measure piston to bore clearance? Overkill much?

I use bore gauges and mikes on a daily basis.

Just use slim width verified shim stock or feeler guage at the belly of the piston for checking. Go/no go

It is a direct, first principle; superior to the multiple measurements, translations and calculations the alternatives involve.
Hoseclamp
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3/21/2020 6:11am
There is more to this story that I didnt say at first because it didnt really matter and was still developing, but I need to say it now. I will come out first and say I like vertex and really wanted to run their piston. I have rebuilt our 65 several times with them and just a couple weeks ago put one in our 85. They always measure good and hold up even after many hours. I ordered one from my dealer for my honda then pointed out the discrepency in stamped size vs actual mic size once it came in. They said they dont mic stuff but after I showed them they sent it back to the vertex distributor as a defective product. In the mean time I talked to the vertex distributor and requested they have a tech check the size on one so its "proven" and send it to me. He said they would send a guy down with calipers to check (I corrected them and said it has to be a mic cause calipers arn't accurate enough.) They verified the size was as stamped and sent it to me. It mics the exact same as the first one, almost a thou bigger than marked. WTF! Then a few days later they had an engineer come in and fire up a cmm machine and measure the first piston I sent back to them. They told me it was within tolerance and checked right on size with the cmm. I know my mics are calibrated and have checked them against several standards so my measurment is correct. The only thing I can think is that they account for the coating wearing away? Or that they take a sort of "average" piston measurement or measure in a different spot? I really wish I could have spoke with the engineer myself to get some more answers or explanation. I stand firm that where most people measure a piston (the biggest spot) it is a solid .0008 bigger than it was marked on 2 different pistons from them. I WILL commend them for being friendly and understanding on the phone and then during these crazy times with the virus they had sent their engineers to work from home. They called one in from home just to check my piston. Thats pretty good service and a great effort by them, and for that Im thankful. Still not sure why we cant seem to get the same numbers but at this point Im just gonna drop it. Hard to argue with an engineer and a cmm when trying to explain I think their product is wrong. So while I will continue to use vertex on my 2 ktms I dont think Im gonna run them in my honda. Thank you guys for your ideas, Im still not 100% sure what Im gonna do but Ill figure something out. Let this be a lesson to anyone rebuilding their top end. MIC YOUR SHIT or you dont know for sure what your getting!
1
DynoDan22
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3/21/2020 9:02am
I put a vertex "B" piston in a an '02 CR250 "B" cylinder and man, it felt tight. I measured everything and found the piston to be about .0005" larger than the measurement as well. It almost bound up in the cylinder as I test fit it in the cylinder (without) rings. I didn't feel comfortable with it and also went on a scavenger hunt to find an OEM "B" piston. I believe the grey molybdenum or whatever the coating is, adds to the diameter. Funny thing is the vertex pistons in my 150 KTM measure fine. Weird.
2
okmoto88
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Pagosa Springs, CO, USA
3/1/2021 6:50am
Hey guys I’m in the same situation with my 03 Cr250. Just got my vertex piston delivered and it’s too big at the skirt. I have a “A” cylinder and I’m slightly closer to spec. Than yours but not comfortably close. Unfortunately I bought mine from eBay and can’t seem to get any response from the seller. Supposedly they come in a,b,c,d sizes but I can only find the “b” piston for sale. I’m just wondering what you wound up doing seeing as it’s a year later from the start of this post. I’m personally thinking of running the piston through a few heat cycles and disassembling the top end to re measure as an experiment.
DynoDan22
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3/1/2021 7:05am
I ran the piston and found that the spray on grey coating was actually thicker than I'd seen on previous Vertex pistons. we have well over 30hrs on the piston and all is fine. This doesn't mean you still shouldn't measure everything to be safe. When the piston was new, I could slide it in the bore ( A cylinder) and the skirt was a little close for my comfort.
okmoto88
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3/1/2021 7:27am
Well that is good news, I have measured the piston and cylinder with my Fowler micrometer and bore gauge thus providing me with my uncertainty. I’ve even measured them at freezing temps/room temp and 100 degrees to get a better idea of the thermal expansion and all measurements came in slightly tight at the skirt.
sandman768
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3/1/2021 7:28am
What was slightly confusing to me on my 93 Cr125 was the Honda B piston is actually slightly smaller diameter than Honda’s A piston, this is the opposite of everyone else including the aftermarket pistons. I ordered the smallest Pro X piston, which was an A piston, and it was to tight in the bore, just like DynoDan22 experienced. I brought my piston & cylinder to a machine shop & he confirmed, it”s too tight in the bore. I just re ringed my original piston, but did manage to find a Honda B piston for replacement. I will be tearing my 125 down soon & sending the cylinder to TMR, curious to see what he says about cylinder/ piston measurements. I don’t trust my Harbour Freight measuring tools...
40
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3/1/2021 6:28pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2021 6:31pm
sandman768 wrote:
What was slightly confusing to me on my 93 Cr125 was the Honda B piston is actually slightly smaller diameter than Honda’s A piston, this is...
What was slightly confusing to me on my 93 Cr125 was the Honda B piston is actually slightly smaller diameter than Honda’s A piston, this is the opposite of everyone else including the aftermarket pistons. I ordered the smallest Pro X piston, which was an A piston, and it was to tight in the bore, just like DynoDan22 experienced. I brought my piston & cylinder to a machine shop & he confirmed, it”s too tight in the bore. I just re ringed my original piston, but did manage to find a Honda B piston for replacement. I will be tearing my 125 down soon & sending the cylinder to TMR, curious to see what he says about cylinder/ piston measurements. I don’t trust my Harbour Freight measuring tools...
You're right- Honda piston sizing is a little different than the others. A is bigger, B is smaller. The Honda shop manual lists the allowable limits.
Pro X offers 53.94, 53.95, 53.96 and 53.97mm for the 93 CR125. Is their 53.94mm piston still too big?
40
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3/1/2021 6:35pm Edited Date/Time 3/1/2021 6:42pm
Hoseclamp wrote:
I have a 2002 cr 250. The cylinder is oem with about 60hrs on it. OEM pistons are discontinued. Im a machinest with extensive experiance with...
I have a 2002 cr 250. The cylinder is oem with about 60hrs on it. OEM pistons are discontinued. Im a machinest with extensive experiance with measuring devices (mics of all sorts, bore guage, etc) but I am not a pro engine builder. My cylinder measures 2.614 as checked with a dial bore guage calibrated with my ISO 9000 certified OD mics. I ordered a vertex piston (size B, the only size available) that is marked 66.35 = 2.6122 allowing almost .002 clearance, but it actually mics 2.613. Vertex reccomends .0019-.0031 clearance. That would only give me about .001 clearance (half of what they recommend). So I ordered a weisco pro lite. It says that clearance should be .0015 but it also mics right at 2.613 which is also only about .001 clearance. As I understand the forged weisco should allow more clearance for thermal expansion. Why then is their recommended clearance less than the cast vertex? If these are my 2 choices and both are running about .001 clearance which should I put in? The weisco forged is only .0005 tighter than they recommend but seems DANGEROUSLY tight especially for a forged. Or should I put in the cast vertex that is .001 tighter than recommended but probably safer than the forged. Pretty frustrated that neither of these pistons seems to offer the proper clearance. I dont want to (or feel I should have to) send my oem jug out for bore/recoat of only .001 bigger to fit pistons that are made to sloppy tolerances. Also as a second question the weisco metal is in the white but the vertex has a black coating on it. Could I lightly polish about .001 off the OD of the vertex piston? It would remove that black coating but since the weisco dosnt have the same coating would that really be a problem? Or maybe I could polish some material off the weisco to get a little more clearance. Most people seem like they just order a piston and drop it in without even measuring but Im kinda anal about this stuff and feel like I have a problem. Anyone with vast experiance building motors and measuring pistons and cylinders have any advice or thoughts for me? Im not sure what to do.
Same story here.
Pro X offers 66.34, 66.35, 66.36 and 66.37mm pistons for the 02 CR250.
Pro X part number 01.1323.A is their 66.34 piston and should work for you, but these have coated skirts.
The newer 05-07 pistons from Pro X are not coated but they are dome top designs so you can not interchange with 02-04 without also swapping heads.
1
sandman768
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Saratoga Springs, NY, USA
3/1/2021 7:18pm
40 wrote:
You're right- Honda piston sizing is a little different than the others. A is bigger, B is smaller. The Honda shop manual lists the allowable limits...
You're right- Honda piston sizing is a little different than the others. A is bigger, B is smaller. The Honda shop manual lists the allowable limits.
Pro X offers 53.94, 53.95, 53.96 and 53.97mm for the 93 CR125. Is their 53.94mm piston still too big?
It was too tight for me, maybe it was the coating but I was not comfortable with it, I have since found a new factory Honda B piston.
Hoseclamp
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3/3/2021 5:51am
I ended up running a pro x piston.
okmoto88
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3/3/2021 6:54am
Thanks for the reply guys. So out of curiosity I removed the coating on the piston skirts with a mr. Clean magic eraser. Originally I was getting 66.365mm-66.370mm measurements. With the coating removed I’m now getting 66.35mm at the largest spot on the skirts. My cylinder is measuring 66.40mm @ 38 degrees and 66.41mm @ 65 degrees and that’s at the tightest spot just below the ports. So I’m still on the edge of proper clearance with .05-.06mm. I went ahead and ordered a brand new cylinder and then I will buy a pro x to match it after I can measure the new cylinder. But for now I’m just gonna install the vertex piston and see what happens.
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