Rainbow fork coatings and other color coatings

Larry450
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2/8/2020 6:45am
On paper DLC seems to be the better solution if you want less friction. Usually dlc friction coefficient is 0.20 And 0.6 for tin. These are against dry steel, but things change when you add oil in the mix.

If dlc was the hot ticket would you think that every factory team was running forks with it.
Momus
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2/8/2020 6:53am
Chromium nitride is also used as a slider coating, (and on engine valves). It looks very similar to traditional hard chrome but is much harder and slipperier, but cheaper than the DLC type coating. Pretty sure it is being used on factory bikes.
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c0ncEpT
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2/8/2020 8:48am
I got my fork legs DLC coated at Industrial Hard Carbon in North Carolina. 10-10 would recommend.
c0ncEpT
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Larry450 wrote:
On paper DLC seems to be the better solution if you want less friction. Usually dlc friction coefficient is 0.20 And 0.6 for tin. These are...
On paper DLC seems to be the better solution if you want less friction. Usually dlc friction coefficient is 0.20 And 0.6 for tin. These are against dry steel, but things change when you add oil in the mix.

If dlc was the hot ticket would you think that every factory team was running forks with it.
Most are. Factory KTM, Factory Kawi, Geico Honda, and Star Yamaha are a few that come to mine that run DLC.

The Shop

cody41
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2/8/2020 9:14am Edited Date/Time 2/8/2020 9:16am
Larry450 wrote:
On paper DLC seems to be the better solution if you want less friction. Usually dlc friction coefficient is 0.20 And 0.6 for tin. These are...
On paper DLC seems to be the better solution if you want less friction. Usually dlc friction coefficient is 0.20 And 0.6 for tin. These are against dry steel, but things change when you add oil in the mix.

If dlc was the hot ticket would you think that every factory team was running forks with it.
Less friction and a harder surface is the goal.
Larry450
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2/8/2020 10:39am
c0ncEpT wrote:
Most are. Factory KTM, Factory Kawi, Geico Honda, and Star Yamaha are a few that come to mine that run DLC.
Kennys showas looks like tin based coating. Pro circuits bikes looks like they have some sort of tin based coating. And its not like they dont know what they are doing. Or lack of resources.

If dlc was really the number one coating fork lowers they ALL would be running it. We know that dlc has less friction than tin against steel. What friction coefficient of dlc against teflon in heavy load? And there hydraulic fluid involved as well called fork oil. You would imagine that dlc comes more even more slippier right? Well that is not the case always. DLC coating surface is very smooth. Tin coating leaves little rougher surface but in it sametime it may help getting oil between the bushing and fork leg.

Factory ktm uses 52mm forks with alloy lowers, they do not have dlc. You can coat aluminium with dlc, some mtb forks might had them? Factory ktm for some reason just didnt go with it.
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Luxon MX
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2/8/2020 11:31am
I don't think there's any hard data available yet for this particular application, as I haven't seen any. And given that the factory teams aren't all using the same thing, I'm betting they don't know either.

The 52mm WP forks use aluminum lowers, and while you can DLC aluminum, it loses its temper in the process as it requires high-heat; that's why you don't see DLC on the 52mm forks. There are other aluminum specific coatings that are low friction, and that's what they're using. The new 48mm WP cone valves don't use DLC either and claim to be using a coating with even better performance, but I don't know what it is, or if it's even any better.

We're in the middle of developing a test setup to get some actual numbers on how the coatings perform. I'm hoping to have that wrapped up in the next couple weeks so we have some real data rather than just internet speculation... Anyone have the new WP cone valves or a WP TiN tube we can borrow for some testing? We've got loads of stock and DLC tubes to test, but don't have any TiN or a set of the new cone valves.



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Larry450
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2/8/2020 12:32pm Edited Date/Time 2/8/2020 12:33pm
Luxon MX thats a nice looking setup. Will you be releasing your results to us all or keeping it yourself?
Is there change you could get Molybdenum disulfide coating in there as well? The problem with it oxidation, but it sure is there with slippiest of pvd coatings.

You can coat dlc at lower temps too. Coating at lower temps you need get parts really really clean, otherwise you will get arching and poor adhesion. The aluminum mtb forks had some sort of plating under the dlc.
Luxon MX
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Larry450 wrote:
Luxon MX thats a nice looking setup. Will you be releasing your results to us all or keeping it yourself? Is there change you could get...
Luxon MX thats a nice looking setup. Will you be releasing your results to us all or keeping it yourself?
Is there change you could get Molybdenum disulfide coating in there as well? The problem with it oxidation, but it sure is there with slippiest of pvd coatings.

You can coat dlc at lower temps too. Coating at lower temps you need get parts really really clean, otherwise you will get arching and poor adhesion. The aluminum mtb forks had some sort of plating under the dlc.
We'll be posting the results on our blog. I'll test whatever we can get our hands on, if someone wants to let us borrow their kashima tube (molybdenum-disulfide impregnated hard anodize) for the day we'll run it through the test! I haven't heard of anyone using MoS2 on fork lowers, but it's an interesting thought.
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2/9/2020 5:11pm
MZ193 wrote:
Why tho..
Because I’m a vet rider and have the disposable income to spend within the industry on whatever trick parts I want.
Best post I have seen in a while!!! You do you.
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Zacka 161
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2/9/2020 5:23pm
I feel like coating your stock fork and shock with this is about the same as the ceramic coating your exhaust craze from the early 2000's - and wrapping your header pipe
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2/11/2020 6:58pm
Zacka 161 wrote:
I feel like coating your stock fork and shock with this is about the same as the ceramic coating your exhaust craze from the early 2000's...
I feel like coating your stock fork and shock with this is about the same as the ceramic coating your exhaust craze from the early 2000's - and wrapping your header pipe
I wrapped my header on my 2005 RM-Z 250. The tri oval yoshimura at that.
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MUTHERFUKER
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4/5/2022 7:56pm
Luxon MX wrote:
We offer three different colors of DLC now, regular black (top), ice blue (middle), and rainbow (bottom). You can get more vibrant colors and variations with...
We offer three different colors of DLC now, regular black (top), ice blue (middle), and rainbow (bottom). You can get more vibrant colors and variations with TiN, but it won't perform nearly as well as DLC since the friction coefficient is a lot lower.


The rainbow has a lot of color variation near the ends, but that's all hidden internally unfortunately, so it's a bit less exciting when all assembled. There's no way to control it, really, it comes out how it comes out, but we think it still looks pretty awesome:



We charge $500/set of fork tubes, $200 for a shock shaft, or $630 for a set of tubes and a shaft.
https://luxonmx.com/product-luxon-dlc-suspension-coating.html
Can you give us any insight on why KTM/WP went away from offering DLC on their kit forks?

Assuming they did so because they think the chrome is better. Because from a marketing standpoint, the DLC is awesome looking.

I've read that the coating should be added from the factory as the tolerances are better. What says you on all this?
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soggy
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4/6/2022 4:20am
Luxon MX wrote:
We offer three different colors of DLC now, regular black (top), ice blue (middle), and rainbow (bottom). You can get more vibrant colors and variations with...
We offer three different colors of DLC now, regular black (top), ice blue (middle), and rainbow (bottom). You can get more vibrant colors and variations with TiN, but it won't perform nearly as well as DLC since the friction coefficient is a lot lower.


The rainbow has a lot of color variation near the ends, but that's all hidden internally unfortunately, so it's a bit less exciting when all assembled. There's no way to control it, really, it comes out how it comes out, but we think it still looks pretty awesome:



We charge $500/set of fork tubes, $200 for a shock shaft, or $630 for a set of tubes and a shaft.
https://luxonmx.com/product-luxon-dlc-suspension-coating.html
Can you give us any insight on why KTM/WP went away from offering DLC on their kit forks? Assuming they did so because they think the...
Can you give us any insight on why KTM/WP went away from offering DLC on their kit forks?

Assuming they did so because they think the chrome is better. Because from a marketing standpoint, the DLC is awesome looking.

I've read that the coating should be added from the factory as the tolerances are better. What says you on all this?
Read his last few posts he answered this
Robgvx
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4/6/2022 5:45am
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make it tighter in the bushes and seals? Wouldn’t that defeat the object of using a friction-reduced coating?
soggy
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4/6/2022 6:59am Edited Date/Time 4/6/2022 8:26am
Robgvx wrote:
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make...
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make it tighter in the bushes and seals? Wouldn’t that defeat the object of using a friction-reduced coating?
Edited because Billy is smarter then me
Luxon MX
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Luxon MX wrote:
We offer three different colors of DLC now, regular black (top), ice blue (middle), and rainbow (bottom). You can get more vibrant colors and variations with...
We offer three different colors of DLC now, regular black (top), ice blue (middle), and rainbow (bottom). You can get more vibrant colors and variations with TiN, but it won't perform nearly as well as DLC since the friction coefficient is a lot lower.


The rainbow has a lot of color variation near the ends, but that's all hidden internally unfortunately, so it's a bit less exciting when all assembled. There's no way to control it, really, it comes out how it comes out, but we think it still looks pretty awesome:



We charge $500/set of fork tubes, $200 for a shock shaft, or $630 for a set of tubes and a shaft.
https://luxonmx.com/product-luxon-dlc-suspension-coating.html
Can you give us any insight on why KTM/WP went away from offering DLC on their kit forks? Assuming they did so because they think the...
Can you give us any insight on why KTM/WP went away from offering DLC on their kit forks?

Assuming they did so because they think the chrome is better. Because from a marketing standpoint, the DLC is awesome looking.

I've read that the coating should be added from the factory as the tolerances are better. What says you on all this?
You'd have to ask WP for a real answer (if they'll give it), but I believe they do coat their forks, it's just not DLC. They alluded to that in some marketing material I was reading a while back. There are a lot of coatings available, and a lot of them aren't very sexy looking - they even look like chrome. My guess is that they found one of these coatings that is better than the hard chrome and was cheaper than DLC.

As far as I know, DLC is still the best coating available from a friction perspective in our application. It's also one of the most expensive. You see a lot of kit forks and race teams using more colorful TiN based coatings now, but that's more for looks than performance. Pro Circuit (and everyone else doing it) wants to sell kit forks, so they cater to what their customers want, which is largely to show off that they own kit forks. Blue/rainbow fork tubes do that! And you might be surprised how many things factory teams do that don't work as well as they could...

We stopped offering coating services last year. It was more trouble than it was worth in the end, and we needed to focus on our core business. So I have no skin in the game anymore which might sway my answers. If I were to have forks coated for my personal bikes, they would be regular black DLC coatings as that is the highest performance coating available.
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Luxon MX
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Robgvx wrote:
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make...
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make it tighter in the bushes and seals? Wouldn’t that defeat the object of using a friction-reduced coating?
soggy wrote:
Edited because Billy is smarter then me
The PVD coatings (DLC, TiN, etc.) used on steel lower fork tubes are applied on top of the hard chrome. They are very thin, and don't change the overall fit of the bushings and seals any amount that would matter. The thickness of the coating is much smaller than the manufacturing tolerances of the bushings, seals, tubes, etc.

A coating on the upper aluminum tubes (Kashima, Kyokote, etc.) requires the previous coating to be stripped first as it is much thicker than a PVD coating. Plus it wouldn't work if the old coating wasn't stripped first anyway.
c0ncEpT
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4/6/2022 8:32am Edited Date/Time 4/6/2022 9:50am
Robgvx wrote:
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make...
Silly question maybe, but if this is an additional coating on top of the OEM chrome does that not make the tube larger, and hence make it tighter in the bushes and seals? Wouldn’t that defeat the object of using a friction-reduced coating?
DLC is measured in microns. It's lay up thickness is far less than any bushing tolerance.
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Skerby
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4/6/2022 9:18am
Larry450 wrote:
Kennys showas looks like tin based coating. Pro circuits bikes looks like they have some sort of tin based coating. And its not like they dont...
Kennys showas looks like tin based coating. Pro circuits bikes looks like they have some sort of tin based coating. And its not like they dont know what they are doing. Or lack of resources.

If dlc was really the number one coating fork lowers they ALL would be running it. We know that dlc has less friction than tin against steel. What friction coefficient of dlc against teflon in heavy load? And there hydraulic fluid involved as well called fork oil. You would imagine that dlc comes more even more slippier right? Well that is not the case always. DLC coating surface is very smooth. Tin coating leaves little rougher surface but in it sametime it may help getting oil between the bushing and fork leg.

Factory ktm uses 52mm forks with alloy lowers, they do not have dlc. You can coat aluminium with dlc, some mtb forks might had them? Factory ktm for some reason just didnt go with it.
Black mtb tubes are not DLC from my knowledge. Rockshox spent a ton of money figuring out how to make their alloy tubes black, purely for looks.
4/7/2022 2:20am
All I know is that I had a set of Pro Circuits blue/green coated a-kit forks as well as a set of Showa a-kit with dlc. The wear qualities of the dlc coatings were substantially better than the TIN. The TIN had rock chips quickly and over time the coating itself started to wear through on the upper part of the tube, I assumed due to that being a high friction point.
kawasa84
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4/8/2022 4:46am
I know JBI suspension offers several options of coatings including DLC. Not sure of they do it in house or sub it out though.
nrtec
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4/8/2022 5:06am
I did Titanium nitride at SGB, and I'm a little disapointed, you can see that the color have fade after 40hr and it does not feel smooth as DLC, for same price
sandman768
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4/8/2022 5:17am
This is the exact article I thought about when reading this….
DJFMXpro
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9/5/2022 12:17pm
interesting info Wink

i been trying to find out some info on the showa 47mm or KYB 48mm upper tubes.

anyone know what kind of aluminum the upper tubes are made of ?

and are heat treatment or not ?


thanks
yzaddict106
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9/5/2022 12:24pm
I’m thinking about getting my suspension coated and thought I’d ask about what you guys have for coatings and how much you paid for it with...
I’m thinking about getting my suspension coated and thought I’d ask about what you guys have for coatings and how much you paid for it with which shop?


Enzo. I love mine!!




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