Custom and One-Off Parts

Markopolo400
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Markopolo400 6/20/2019 8:11am
6/20/2019 8:11am
Luxon MX wrote:
No, we do not use SolidWorks simulation. We have it, and could use it, but it's not up to par for a lot of tasks. Our...
No, we do not use SolidWorks simulation. We have it, and could use it, but it's not up to par for a lot of tasks. Our primary FE package is the Altair HyperWorks suite. Much more powerful and more capable than SolidWorks and most anything else on the market. But it's pricey!

The FEA shown in the blog post was done using Altair SimSolid. Much of our other analysis runs and all of the optimization runs are done in Altair Optistruct set up in HyperMesh.
Ah my bad, just saw the FEA pics and assumed. Silly

So my question is when you run the FEA analysis on a part like this, where do you get the input forces to simulate a crash or tip over? Do you have measured data on this? Or just making assumptions and calculating a reasonably realistic SWAG?
kb228
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kb228 6/20/2019 8:31am
6/20/2019 8:31am
kb228 wrote:
Best thing for production parts is to have an inspection gauge rather than using a CMM machine. Much easier to check 1 part per batch on...
Best thing for production parts is to have an inspection gauge rather than using a CMM machine. Much easier to check 1 part per batch on a fixture than fully CMM eveything.
philG wrote:
And the cost of that fixture ? This isnt a production part , its a low run item. CMM's remove the need for hundreds of gauges...
And the cost of that fixture ? This isnt a production part , its a low run item. CMM's remove the need for hundreds of gauges , which is why we have 5 , because whatever we make, we dont have to make anything to check it.
Fixtures can be expensive or as cheap as you want. To hold it on a CMM table youd need some kind of fixture in the first place anyway. Even if its a plate with some pins for the part to set on.
Falcon
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Falcon 6/20/2019 8:37am
6/20/2019 8:37am
Allracing wrote:
I do product development and 3D printing and 3D scanning for a living. Great write up BTW. I get at least one call a week that...
I do product development and 3D printing and 3D scanning for a living. Great write up BTW. I get at least one call a week that asks if I can 3D scan something and then give them a full 3D parametric CAD model in about an hour. When I tell them an average part takes about 10 hours of time from set up, 3D scanning, then reverse engineering it in CAD software to get a good parametric CAD model, they can't believe it. I get people asking all the time "Isn't there just a button to convert it?"
Computers are magic, dude.
FWYT
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FWYT 6/20/2019 8:49am
6/20/2019 8:49am
Very cool info, thanks!!!

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FWYT
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FWYT 6/20/2019 8:50am
6/20/2019 8:50am
BTW, I'm here in San Diego . . . so if I have an idea I can roll in and we can knock it out in an afternoon, right? Just push some buttons . . . I'll get you a burrito!!
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Luxon MX
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Luxon MX 6/20/2019 10:18am
6/20/2019 10:18am
Markopolo400 wrote:
Ah my bad, just saw the FEA pics and assumed. :silly: So my question is when you run the FEA analysis on a part like this...
Ah my bad, just saw the FEA pics and assumed. Silly

So my question is when you run the FEA analysis on a part like this, where do you get the input forces to simulate a crash or tip over? Do you have measured data on this? Or just making assumptions and calculating a reasonably realistic SWAG?
No worries. I'm a little sensitive to being accused of using SW Simulation. Laughing Since it's available to most anyone with a SolidWorks license, I often see bad analysis results being presented as good. It's really easy to get a pretty picture that means nothing and some false confidence because of it! But I do get a laugh when I see a competitor showing off results plots that are clearly wrong when you notice the constraints used...

The answer to your other question is a little of everything:

I have immense spreadsheets with calculated loads for various scenarios and accelerometer data for various places on the bike under different situations. This gives us a good start for what loading to expect.

I also had the 3D model of the competitor part, so I've run the same loading that part as our new part so we can get a comparison there.

And in the end it comes down to a, fairly educated, SWAG. You can't possibly model all crash conditions - different loads, different angles, etc. all add up quick. Someone out there will most certainly bend/break this part, we're just trying to get it so most people don't have an issue in most conditions. For those that manage to break something, we have a crash replacement program (https://luxonmx.com/crash-replacement.html) to help with costs and for us to learn more about the crash and how to prevent the failure from happening again.
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zookie
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zookie 6/20/2019 10:52am
6/20/2019 10:52am
zookie wrote:
Awesome part and GREAT post! As an engineer who has worked in R&D for many years and runs a CNC mill, it is almost always cheaper...
Awesome part and GREAT post!

As an engineer who has worked in R&D for many years and runs a CNC mill, it is almost always cheaper on a time/material basis for me to send things out, even one-offs. Did you ever get this part quoted by a prototype shop? We often send part overseas, not because it is cheap (it isn't), but because they have beautiful parts back to us in less time than it takes many shops in the states to get us a quotation.
Luxon MX wrote:
I run an engineering firm primarily, with moto as the "side" business. We're constantly outsourcing parts on that side and for one-offs it's typically very expensive...
I run an engineering firm primarily, with moto as the "side" business. We're constantly outsourcing parts on that side and for one-offs it's typically very expensive, regardless of timeline. I've never quoted this part, particularly since it's something we wanted to turn into a product anyway so it just made sense for us to do it direct. But for something else that we didn't want as a product, it wouldn't make sense to outsource either. By the time we marked it up to make any reasonable profit, it would be more expensive than if we did it ourselves (with higher margins). And no one would want to pay that much anyway!
I used to be very much in the camp of "overall it is cheaper to do it all in-house" (which is why I used to design/machine all my own parts and fixtures for prototypes). It got to the point, however, where the opportunity cost was high as it was pulling me away from brain cycles spent on R&D, testing, etc.

If you've got any capital to work with, in my opinion, the overall cost to your business (when you consider the opportunity cost of your time as engineer/owner/businessman/marketing) will be MUCH lower when you outsource work like machining.

I guess the key here is bandwidth. If you aren't bandwidth limited or otherwise neglecting opportunities or portions of your business by machining in house, then have at it and have fun!

I freaking LOVE machining the stuff I design. It is an absolute joy to design a part, think of how I will make it given the equipment I have, design fixtures, order tooling, make fixtures, etc then make the final part in the end. I absolutely love it!
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Luxon MX
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Luxon MX 6/20/2019 11:22am
6/20/2019 11:22am
zookie wrote:
I used to be very much in the camp of "overall it is cheaper to do it all in-house" (which is why I used to design/machine...
I used to be very much in the camp of "overall it is cheaper to do it all in-house" (which is why I used to design/machine all my own parts and fixtures for prototypes). It got to the point, however, where the opportunity cost was high as it was pulling me away from brain cycles spent on R&D, testing, etc.

If you've got any capital to work with, in my opinion, the overall cost to your business (when you consider the opportunity cost of your time as engineer/owner/businessman/marketing) will be MUCH lower when you outsource work like machining.

I guess the key here is bandwidth. If you aren't bandwidth limited or otherwise neglecting opportunities or portions of your business by machining in house, then have at it and have fun!

I freaking LOVE machining the stuff I design. It is an absolute joy to design a part, think of how I will make it given the equipment I have, design fixtures, order tooling, make fixtures, etc then make the final part in the end. I absolutely love it!
Years ago I went through the exercise of answering that question. Does it make sense to outsource everything at a higher cost to save money on machinery and time spent making everything, or does it make sense to do this all in-house with huge initial costs but at much higher margins?

I quoted out some clamps and pricing came back pretty high, even at high quantities, so my margins would be pretty low, particularly for the investment in inventory. And I looked at what my ROI was on equipment vs paying these higher costs to outsource. Turns out it didn't take all that long to make it back. Beyond that, having in-house capabilities gives us enormous freedom. Want to make a design change? Just go do it. Need a custom part or prototype? Jump in the shop and machine one. I've made a lot of prototypes and quick parts that wouldn't have been possible when outsourcing costs and lead times are taken into account.

But your bandwidth point is a good one. And I specifically thought about that when setting everything up. The workholding is modular and quick and repeatable to set up, particularly for a production job. And I can set up a lot of parts to run at once. The part probe and laser tool setter makes for quick setups as well as in-process tool breakage detection and inspection. And I have a camera set up in the machine to remotely monitor things.

For prototypes and first runs, it's still a lot of time spent at the machine. But for production runs, it's a matter of loading a bunch of parts in the machine, pressing the green button, and going back to my desk to do other work in parallel, which keeps things flowing nicely.
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MDana87
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MDana87 6/20/2019 11:34am
6/20/2019 11:34am
From my exposure to Vital worthwhile threads are quite few and far between. This is a great thread. There is a lot of good info here, especially for engineer/entrepreneur types amongst us. Thanks for sharing!
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BobPA
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BobPA 6/20/2019 7:32pm
6/20/2019 7:32pm
MDana87 wrote:
From my exposure to Vital worthwhile threads are quite few and far between. This is a great thread. There is a lot of good info here...
From my exposure to Vital worthwhile threads are quite few and far between. This is a great thread. There is a lot of good info here, especially for engineer/entrepreneur types amongst us. Thanks for sharing!
Most every post that Luxon chimes in on is worth the read. He always gives a non-biased opinion on competitors products...Even though he can shamelessly plug his own parts. Manufactures should note his approach to customer outreach
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JM485
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Davis, CA, USA
JM485 6/20/2019 9:34pm
6/20/2019 9:34pm
MDana87 wrote:
From my exposure to Vital worthwhile threads are quite few and far between. This is a great thread. There is a lot of good info here...
From my exposure to Vital worthwhile threads are quite few and far between. This is a great thread. There is a lot of good info here, especially for engineer/entrepreneur types amongst us. Thanks for sharing!
BobPA wrote:
Most every post that Luxon chimes in on is worth the read. He always gives a non-biased opinion on competitors products...Even though he can shamelessly plug...
Most every post that Luxon chimes in on is worth the read. He always gives a non-biased opinion on competitors products...Even though he can shamelessly plug his own parts. Manufactures should note his approach to customer outreach
I can definitely confirm he's the real deal. A couple years ago when I got out of school he was nice enough to look over my resume and give me some great pointers that really helped me out a lot. He didn't have to do that, is very busy, and had no idea who I was, but still took the time to do so even though there was no benefit for him at all. I'm willing to bet those pointers played a large roll in me landing the job I currently still hold pretty quickly out of school, so I'm very thankful for that to this day.
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Pit Row

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