The Conversation Broc Tickle

Crush
Profile picture for user Crush
Posts
21154
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
Crush 9/26/2018 7:04am
9/26/2018 7:04am Edited Date/Time 9/26/2018 7:09am
early wrote:
I'll ask it again, if this process is so cut and dry, both samples tested positive so you are guilty, why isn't the punishment for each...
I'll ask it again, if this process is so cut and dry, both samples tested positive so you are guilty, why isn't the punishment for each substance published? And why is there not a list of organizations that, if you race with them, will count against your punishment? It's complete bullshit that WADA can just make up the rules AFTER someone gets caught. The athletes have no idea what they are getting into when they are asked to piss into a cup. Brock and Cade and James should have known at the moment they received the letter or email that they failed exactly what the maximum punishment is and where it would apply. If there is an appeal process to lower the penalty that is fine. If WADA is going to take the money to be the drug tester for the FIM they need to take the time to make the rules first.
Crush wrote:
I'd take it a step further. For the sake of the athlete's mental well being and ability to get on with things, could they not just...
I'd take it a step further.

For the sake of the athlete's mental well being and ability to get on with things, could they not just, both samples, drug A, level range x – y, equals this. Penalty is set, handed down automatically & immediately. Athlete can ignore with the understanding that at appeal, a judgement not in their favour will add time to their sentence. Auto letters aren't hard to generate.

I'm sure half the pain James, Cade and Broc have dealt with is the fucking guessing game.
GrapeApe wrote:
Have you guys taken the time to read the anti-doping code? It is 156 pages of dense reading, but all of your answers are in there...
Have you guys taken the time to read the anti-doping code? It is 156 pages of dense reading, but all of your answers are in there. Standard penalty is 4 years if the violation was intentional, otherwise 2 years.
(No! Who the fuck has time... but) Yeah I'd assume it's all there, but does it work in real life? It's not like 4 years has been cut and dry every time. Didn't James have some random time less time served? It could be graded and automated for the sake of speeding it all up and making it better for the athletes to get back too it.
Crush
Profile picture for user Crush
Posts
21154
Joined
4/26/2009
Location
Sydney, AU
Crush 9/26/2018 7:07am
9/26/2018 7:07am
Crush wrote:
Yeah both samples are bad but isn't there still a review to complete? I mean I guess if it's going to count towards whatever penalty, ie...
Yeah both samples are bad but isn't there still a review to complete? I mean I guess if it's going to count towards whatever penalty, ie time served, but to me there's a massive issue there. Time and the guys not being able to make money or be penalised. It didn't matter shit for James except he was still in his prime, but for someone like Cade? Wow.
dkg wrote:
As I think about this a little more, perhaps an interesting approach to this would be for one of the athletes to appeal to WADA asserting...
As I think about this a little more, perhaps an interesting approach to this would be for one of the athletes to appeal to WADA asserting that FIM isn’t complying with its obligations as a signatory to the code in that they are not providing hearings, etc. within a reasonable time as required by the code. This nonsense of the athlete being in limbo for months on end simply because FIM does nothing is hardly reasonable. WADA is charged with overseeing implementation of the code so perhaps they could correct many of these issues. When FIM decided to become a signatory in addition to being able to say “See we are doing something about PEDs”, they also undertook the duty to do so fairly and in a reasonably timely manner. Seems they are falling short in many areas.
I wonder if you have any ability to appeal the jurisdiction or process after the B sample comes back bad?

Was listening to a Joey Diaz podcast the other day and he was talking about medical marijuana in California, what happens when an inmate needs a script for it etc. Think he said once you're on the wrong side of the law then your rights go away...

At any rate... no doubt some people are outright cheating, but then you hear about tainted supplements and the timelines and it's just shit all around.
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
10121
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 9/26/2018 7:14am
9/26/2018 7:14am
GrapeApe wrote:
Have you guys taken the time to read the anti-doping code? It is 156 pages of dense reading, but all of your answers are in there...
Have you guys taken the time to read the anti-doping code? It is 156 pages of dense reading, but all of your answers are in there. Standard penalty is 4 years if the violation was intentional, otherwise 2 years.
Well, I guess that's it. So you can hope that they rule it unintentional and only get a 2 year suspension from "motorcycle racing" as it is defined by WADA which apparently applies to all motorcycle racing anywhere in the universe.

I understand strict rules, but man these are just crazy to hand out a 4 year suspension for something that is not deemed illegal or requires a prescription by the governments of the world. And to be banned from "motorcycle racing" or is it any other sport that is tested by WADA? Who knows?
1
Moto96
Profile picture for user Moto96
Posts
668
Joined
8/9/2018
Location
CA
Moto96 9/26/2018 8:18am
9/26/2018 8:18am
dkg wrote:
Crush, I agree with most of your post, but on the assumption of innocence, that question has been answered. Both the A and B tests came...
Crush, I agree with most of your post, but on the assumption of innocence, that question has been answered. Both the A and B tests came back dirty. After that, the burden shifts to the athlete to show some sort of mitigating circumstances that affect the penalty.

Biggest problem like you address are more of a lack due of process in nature. Both as to timeliness and responsiveness by the FIM.
Crush wrote:
Yeah both samples are bad but isn't there still a review to complete? I mean I guess if it's going to count towards whatever penalty, ie...
Yeah both samples are bad but isn't there still a review to complete? I mean I guess if it's going to count towards whatever penalty, ie time served, but to me there's a massive issue there. Time and the guys not being able to make money or be penalised. It didn't matter shit for James except he was still in his prime, but for someone like Cade? Wow.
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught.

Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a radar gun, and you speed anyway! Hello. I mean WTF?
2

The Shop

See All »
mxb2
Profile picture for user mxb2
Posts
22437
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD, USA
mxb2 9/26/2018 8:45am
9/26/2018 8:45am
Crush wrote:
I'd take it a step further. For the sake of the athlete's mental well being and ability to get on with things, could they not just...
I'd take it a step further.

For the sake of the athlete's mental well being and ability to get on with things, could they not just, both samples, drug A, level range x – y, equals this. Penalty is set, handed down automatically & immediately. Athlete can ignore with the understanding that at appeal, a judgement not in their favour will add time to their sentence. Auto letters aren't hard to generate.

I'm sure half the pain James, Cade and Broc have dealt with is the fucking guessing game.
GrapeApe wrote:
Have you guys taken the time to read the anti-doping code? It is 156 pages of dense reading, but all of your answers are in there...
Have you guys taken the time to read the anti-doping code? It is 156 pages of dense reading, but all of your answers are in there. Standard penalty is 4 years if the violation was intentional, otherwise 2 years.
Crush wrote:
(No! Who the fuck has time... but) Yeah I'd assume it's all there, but does it work in real life? It's not like 4 years has...
(No! Who the fuck has time... but) Yeah I'd assume it's all there, but does it work in real life? It's not like 4 years has been cut and dry every time. Didn't James have some random time less time served? It could be graded and automated for the sake of speeding it all up and making it better for the athletes to get back too it.
I guess tickle didnt have time to read it eitherGrinning Grinning Grinning Grinning
1
brocster
Profile picture for user brocster
Posts
4659
Joined
6/9/2009
Location
Aliso Viejo, CA, USA
brocster 9/26/2018 8:53am
9/26/2018 8:53am
Blows my mind that we are affiliated with an orginazition than can ban someone from “motorcycle racing” in areas that they hold no affiliation. How is that possible? That would be like me testing positive at my job being put on leave for months with no communication while they decide my status and not allow me to find similar work (what I am best at and can make the most money) to put food on the table for my family. Fooking insane that someone has that much control over your livelyhood.
4
1
ns503
Profile picture for user ns503
Posts
4646
Joined
4/1/2008
Location
NS Toolies, CA
ns503 9/26/2018 9:27am
9/26/2018 9:27am
Are we sure WADA plays the primary role in the assessment of penalties? Are we sure it's as simple as 4 years/2 years?

Seems to me I see penalties from all sorts of other WADA-connected sports, that seem to be all over the map.
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 9:43am
9/26/2018 9:43am
Moto96 wrote:
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught. Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a...
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught.

Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a radar gun, and you speed anyway! Hello. I mean WTF?
He tried to file a TUE, twice. And instead of being timely and clear in their correspondence, they left him hanging. Over a doctor prescribed medication. To avoid penalty, Clason would have had to stop taking a medication he's been prescribed since childhood, which is a pretty drastic and potentially harmful measure. Not sure why "fans" think the racers we enjoy watching should be treated this way.
1
1
burn1986
Profile picture for user burn1986
Posts
12246
Joined
4/16/2010
Location
bossier city, LA, USA
burn1986 9/26/2018 10:24am
9/26/2018 10:24am
The wada sucks and is an absolute horrible agency, but its the one all the promoters and everyone chose, so it's here to stay. Its not the wada's fault, but a failure in negotiations between the promoters, ama, fim, and legal departments for each.
1
early
Profile picture for user early
Posts
10121
Joined
2/13/2013
Location
University Heights, OH, USA
early 9/26/2018 10:29am
9/26/2018 10:29am
burn1986 wrote:
The wada sucks and is an absolute horrible agency, but its the one all the promoters and everyone chose, so it's here to stay. Its not...
The wada sucks and is an absolute horrible agency, but its the one all the promoters and everyone chose, so it's here to stay. Its not the wada's fault, but a failure in negotiations between the promoters, ama, fim, and legal departments for each.
Drop the the, just WADA, it's cleaner
1
1
mxb2
Profile picture for user mxb2
Posts
22437
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD, USA
mxb2 9/26/2018 10:36am
9/26/2018 10:36am
Moto96 wrote:
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught. Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a...
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught.

Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a radar gun, and you speed anyway! Hello. I mean WTF?
freebroctickle wrote:
He tried to file a TUE, twice. And instead of being timely and clear in their correspondence, they left him hanging. Over a doctor prescribed medication...
He tried to file a TUE, twice. And instead of being timely and clear in their correspondence, they left him hanging. Over a doctor prescribed medication. To avoid penalty, Clason would have had to stop taking a medication he's been prescribed since childhood, which is a pretty drastic and potentially harmful measure. Not sure why "fans" think the racers we enjoy watching should be treated this way.
What is the guideline time limit for a response back from wada? If there isnt one,, clason rolled the dice and lost.
1
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 10:44am
9/26/2018 10:44am
mxb2 wrote:
What is the guideline time limit for a response back from wada? If there isnt one,, clason rolled the dice and lost.
He sure did. And I don't think our sport should be at the behest of an organization where professional dealings involve "rolling the dice."
1
mxb2
Profile picture for user mxb2
Posts
22437
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD, USA
mxb2 9/26/2018 10:52am
9/26/2018 10:52am
mxb2 wrote:
What is the guideline time limit for a response back from wada? If there isnt one,, clason rolled the dice and lost.
freebroctickle wrote:
He sure did. And I don't think our sport should be at the behest of an organization where professional dealings involve "rolling the dice."
Agreed, but until.the rules change. They are what they are. Each pro rider has access to the guidelines. Why risk your job , income. .
1
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 11:29am
9/26/2018 11:29am
mxb2 wrote:
Agreed, but until.the rules change. They are what they are. Each pro rider has access to the guidelines. Why risk your job , income. .
Yes they are. And if a rider is vested with the responsibility of following said rules, FIM/WADA should be vested with the responsibility of enforcing them in a clear, timely, professional manner.
1
1
mxb2
Profile picture for user mxb2
Posts
22437
Joined
6/15/2010
Location
Bowie, MD, USA
mxb2 9/26/2018 11:33am
9/26/2018 11:33am
mxb2 wrote:
Agreed, but until.the rules change. They are what they are. Each pro rider has access to the guidelines. Why risk your job , income. .
freebroctickle wrote:
Yes they are. And if a rider is vested with the responsibility of following said rules, FIM/WADA should be vested with the responsibility of enforcing them...
Yes they are. And if a rider is vested with the responsibility of following said rules, FIM/WADA should be vested with the responsibility of enforcing them in a clear, timely, professional manner.
Yep,. Like i said , i havent looked yet, for the guidelines for a reponse time. I would think the riders have that info.
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 11:40am
9/26/2018 11:40am
mxb2 wrote:
Yep,. Like i said , i havent looked yet, for the guidelines for a reponse time. I would think the riders have that info.
Sadly, it doesn't appear that anyone has that info. Broc Tickle and Cade Clason might as well ask a Magic 8 ball.
1
Falcon
Profile picture for user Falcon
Posts
12638
Joined
11/16/2011
Location
Menifee, CA, USA
Falcon 9/26/2018 11:57am
9/26/2018 11:57am
Falcon wrote:
Unless Broc Tickle has access to his own sample so he can independently test it himself, I'm going to correct you: His MX life was over...
Unless Broc Tickle has access to his own sample so he can independently test it himself, I'm going to correct you:

His MX life was over as soon as he was ACCUSED of testing positive.



How do we know Broc tested positive? WADA says so.
When will we know his punishment? When WADA feels inclined to say.
How do we even know WADA is qualified to test the samples themselves???? Oh yeah, WADA says they are.
Moto96 wrote:
You should read up before posting bullshit. Wada doesn't do the tests. A credible lab does. They dont accuse anyone of anything. You either pass or...
You should read up before posting bullshit. Wada doesn't do the tests. A credible lab does. They dont accuse anyone of anything.

You either pass or fail. There are no accusations.


OK, The FIM and/or WADA says that their independent lab produced positive results. That is an accusation.

Perhaps I should back up and make sure I have all the facts. Was Broc ever informed which lab did the testing? allowed to question them himself? See the test results?


Let's face it, odds are good that Broc took the supplement, either intentionally or unintentionally. However, I like to think in terms of "what if" every now and then. So: What if Broc isn't lying and did not consume any of the prohibited substance? What if he would like his accuser to prove he was in the wrong, but they could not do it?
Allowing a 3rd-party body to essentially ruin one's career without asking for proof is simply asinine.
1
2
Zaugg
Profile picture for user Zaugg
Posts
1083
Joined
9/1/2012
Location
Not California, CA, USA
Zaugg 9/26/2018 12:00pm
9/26/2018 12:00pm Edited Date/Time 9/26/2018 12:00pm
Moto96 wrote:
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught. Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a...
Clason didnt hear back about a BS TUE. He used anyway. And got caught.

Thats like knowing there is a cop on your road with a radar gun, and you speed anyway! Hello. I mean WTF?
And you know it's a BS TUE how?



1

Pit Row

See All »
Moto96
Profile picture for user Moto96
Posts
668
Joined
8/9/2018
Location
CA
Moto96 9/26/2018 12:17pm
9/26/2018 12:17pm
mxb2 wrote:
What is the guideline time limit for a response back from wada? If there isnt one,, clason rolled the dice and lost.
freebroctickle wrote:
He sure did. And I don't think our sport should be at the behest of an organization where professional dealings involve "rolling the dice."
Clason wasn't give a TUE. Thats the same as a NO. There was NO rolling of the dice except by a guy who didn't follow the rules.
He took a chance and got popped. Adderall isnt some life saving drug like heart attack meds or some crap. You're not gonna die if you arent jacked up high as a kite on speed.

Adderall is getting banned and most TUEs are getting revoked in alot of sports because everyone is using it to cheat. TUEs are just an open doorway to cheat. MMA and UFC in particular.

motogrady
Profile picture for user motogrady
Posts
3931
Joined
1/27/2008
Location
USA
motogrady 9/26/2018 12:22pm
9/26/2018 12:22pm

I dunno.

First off, who do they think they are, telling a guy he can't race anywhere, for anyone?
That's arrogance defined.
They don't own the world, even tho they might think otherwise.
Second, were the people at the independent lab testing facility hemselves tested for illegal drug use?
Are those people qualified, are they trained in their field?
Third, the equipment used to analyze these tests, when was the last time it was calibrated or maintained/serviced?
Forth, how was the sample collected, transported and stored for testing?
I mean, if I remember correctly, it was mentioned, during the Reed/Ricky fuel suspensions, that just leaving the can cap off for a certain time would skew the results.
Fifth. Seems it would only be fair, if a guy comes up dirty, he should be notified immediately. And a sample given back to him so he could get a second opinion, at least, and or be tested by another, certified facility of his choice.

Like Ozzie said, too much power, in a one way street, with the wrong kind of arrogant drivers, imo.
2
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 12:44pm
9/26/2018 12:44pm
Moto96 wrote:
Clason wasn't give a TUE. Thats the same as a NO. There was NO rolling of the dice except by a guy who didn't follow the...
Clason wasn't give a TUE. Thats the same as a NO. There was NO rolling of the dice except by a guy who didn't follow the rules.
He took a chance and got popped. Adderall isnt some life saving drug like heart attack meds or some crap. You're not gonna die if you arent jacked up high as a kite on speed.

Adderall is getting banned and most TUEs are getting revoked in alot of sports because everyone is using it to cheat. TUEs are just an open doorway to cheat. MMA and UFC in particular.

A TUE which he TRIED to obtain, fair and square. My point is, he was trying to follow the rules. He didn't want to break them in the first place. Due to poor communication on their part, he did indeed go ahead and take that risk. And that shouldn't have happened. Good law enforcement should make it easier, not harder, for rules to be followed. Cade's TUE application status should have been communicated to him, so that if and when it was denied he could take that next step and make an informed decision regarding his medication and career.

As for Cade's prescription, if you believe it's bullshit, take it up with his doctor. I don't think it's Vital's place to decide whether or not he "needs" his medication.
2
Moto96
Profile picture for user Moto96
Posts
668
Joined
8/9/2018
Location
CA
Moto96 9/26/2018 12:45pm
9/26/2018 12:45pm
Falcon wrote:
OK, The FIM and/or WADA says that their independent lab produced positive results. That is an accusation. Perhaps I should back up and make sure I...
OK, The FIM and/or WADA says that their independent lab produced positive results. That is an accusation.

Perhaps I should back up and make sure I have all the facts. Was Broc ever informed which lab did the testing? allowed to question them himself? See the test results?


Let's face it, odds are good that Broc took the supplement, either intentionally or unintentionally. However, I like to think in terms of "what if" every now and then. So: What if Broc isn't lying and did not consume any of the prohibited substance? What if he would like his accuser to prove he was in the wrong, but they could not do it?
Allowing a 3rd-party body to essentially ruin one's career without asking for proof is simply asinine.
Good grief dude.

Anybody can get the same exact results as what the Wada people are going to get.. In fact, done right, they know if they are popped before they even get the news.
Within 1 week, maybe 10 days tops. Even if they dont tell you for months.








1
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 1:10pm
9/26/2018 1:10pm
Moto96 wrote:
Good grief dude. Anybody can get the same exact results as what the Wada people are going to get.. In fact, done right, they know if...
Good grief dude.

Anybody can get the same exact results as what the Wada people are going to get.. In fact, done right, they know if they are popped before they even get the news.
Within 1 week, maybe 10 days tops. Even if they dont tell you for months.








The point isn't whether Tickle's samples were dirty or not. The point is whether they should have the power to indict Tickle whilst providing so little information in said indictment. The burden of proof should extend to both parties. As it is the scales of justice are tilted heavily against Tickle.

Yes, "it is what it is." But maybe in this case, "what it is," shouldn't be.
2
Moto96
Profile picture for user Moto96
Posts
668
Joined
8/9/2018
Location
CA
Moto96 9/26/2018 1:20pm
9/26/2018 1:20pm
freebroctickle wrote:
A TUE which he TRIED to obtain, fair and square. My point is, he was trying to follow the rules. He didn't [i]want[/i] to break them...
A TUE which he TRIED to obtain, fair and square. My point is, he was trying to follow the rules. He didn't want to break them in the first place. Due to poor communication on their part, he did indeed go ahead and take that risk. And that shouldn't have happened. Good law enforcement should make it easier, not harder, for rules to be followed. Cade's TUE application status should have been communicated to him, so that if and when it was denied he could take that next step and make an informed decision regarding his medication and career.

As for Cade's prescription, if you believe it's bullshit, take it up with his doctor. I don't think it's Vital's place to decide whether or not he "needs" his medication.
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork and decide on it.

TUES are simply BS in most cases and thats why many sports want them banned in totality.
UFC is rampant with BS TUEs. They know it and thats why people keep popping for various things.

Its supposed to promote 100% clean sport. With TUEs, it's not 100% clean. Impossible to be 100% clean.
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 1:38pm
9/26/2018 1:38pm
Moto96 wrote:
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork...
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork and decide on it.

TUES are simply BS in most cases and thats why many sports want them banned in totality.
UFC is rampant with BS TUEs. They know it and thats why people keep popping for various things.

Its supposed to promote 100% clean sport. With TUEs, it's not 100% clean. Impossible to be 100% clean.
My quote:

"TUE which he TRIED to obtain, fair and square"

As in, he did not yet have a TUE. And was attempting to obtain one.
2
Moto96
Profile picture for user Moto96
Posts
668
Joined
8/9/2018
Location
CA
Moto96 9/26/2018 2:02pm
9/26/2018 2:02pm
Moto96 wrote:
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork...
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork and decide on it.

TUES are simply BS in most cases and thats why many sports want them banned in totality.
UFC is rampant with BS TUEs. They know it and thats why people keep popping for various things.

Its supposed to promote 100% clean sport. With TUEs, it's not 100% clean. Impossible to be 100% clean.
freebroctickle wrote:
My quote:

"TUE which he TRIED to obtain, fair and square"

As in, he did not yet have a TUE. And was attempting to obtain one.
You also posted.
Cade's TUE application status should have been communicated to him, so that if and when it was denied he could take that next step and make an informed decision regarding his medication and career.

Not hearing is the same as denied. Why is it so hard for people to understand that?
Clason used anyway and got popped. He simply could not have used.



freebroctickle 9/26/2018 2:04pm
9/26/2018 2:04pm
Moto96 wrote:
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork...
You obviously dont read carefully. Doctors don't issue a TUE. Doctors write why you supposedly need something and a panel of experts look at the paperwork and decide on it.

TUES are simply BS in most cases and thats why many sports want them banned in totality.
UFC is rampant with BS TUEs. They know it and thats why people keep popping for various things.

Its supposed to promote 100% clean sport. With TUEs, it's not 100% clean. Impossible to be 100% clean.
RE. TUEs, I agree. For all we know, there are a dozen other riders with valid TUES for Adderall. Not arguing one way or another whether Adderall is "performance enhancing," but who really knows what's "legally" floating around out there. It's all BS, and the system would be simplified by eliminating them.
1
freebroctickle 9/26/2018 2:09pm
9/26/2018 2:09pm
Moto96 wrote:
You also posted. [i]Cade's TUE application status should have been communicated to him, so that if and when it was denied he could take that next...
You also posted.
Cade's TUE application status should have been communicated to him, so that if and when it was denied he could take that next step and make an informed decision regarding his medication and career.

Not hearing is the same as denied. Why is it so hard for people to understand that?
Clason used anyway and got popped. He simply could not have used.



"Not hearing" is poor communication and unprofessional, plain and simple. I agree Cade made a poor decision. But it's not unreasonable to expect an entity hired to do a certain job to actually DO their damned job, and communicate with the riders as they are tasked to do.
1

Post a reply to: The Conversation Broc Tickle