Understanding Sag...

Ghost of Jabroni wrote:

Good stuff. Thanks for all the advice. I measured my sag again today, resetting the preload to 6mm I’ve lost a few more lbs since my...

Good stuff. Thanks for all the advice.

I measured my sag again today, resetting the preload to 6mm

I’ve lost a few more lbs since my last ride. Because rider sag is down to 112.

I went from 14 clicks on the rebound, to 10. That had positive and negative effects. The rear was no longer kicking me off of jumps. But I’d gone too far. Sweeper turns the rear end was unstable.

Went to 12 clicks on the rebound. PERFECT. The bike is doing what I want.

Im at 112 rider, 38 static, 6 preload, 12 clicks rebound (down from 15 stock).

I’ll continue to lose weight, and as I do, the sag numbers will normalize. I’ll take a click or 2 out of the rebound as that happens.

Bruce372 wrote:

That's why race tech and others sell a check valve to replace the shock shaft nut... It isolates the two circuits.

mxtech1 wrote:

Did it ever occur to you that the main reason for a product like that is to force the shock to operate more like a traditional...

Did it ever occur to you that the main reason for a product like that is to force the shock to operate more like a traditional circuit that they have more experience with and better known settings?

WP is designing and testing suspension components years ahead of ever being put on a bike.

Aftermarket suspension companies usually are slower to understand and adopt design change. It may take them many months (or years) of testing to develop specs that are required for mail order suspension tuning. On the other hand, you can design a check valve to fit the new shock relatively fast which then allows you to apply your tuning data to the more conventional circuit.

It's all about business and securing your place as a company who can keep up with changing demand. They may market the check valve as some sort of improvement, but you must ask yourself if it is such a great improvement why wouldn't WP include it as a standard design?

Ghost of Jabroni wrote:

Would you say that the piston reservoir is mishandled in the same way? Most would recommend the bladder kit. Yet even the Trax Shock doesn’t come...

Would you say that the piston reservoir is mishandled in the same way?

Most would recommend the bladder kit. Yet even the Trax Shock doesn’t come with the bladder. I found that odd. One seems more familiar (bladder) and the other was maybe the newer tech (piston) yet not yet accustomed too?

mxtech1 wrote:

Yes - the bladder vs. non-bladder debates is another good example. There are alot of good products out there that are beneficial for the customer and/or...

Yes - the bladder vs. non-bladder debates is another good example.

There are alot of good products out there that are beneficial for the customer and/or suspension performance and there are also alot of products that only benefit the suspension tuner. I will leave it at that.

I will say that modern suspension is really good. In the hand's of competent tuner, stock internals can work well for 99% of the riding population

aees wrote:

Part of the problem why it is kicking is because you have to much sag, and possibly not enough low speed compression (to soft). Rear end...

Part of the problem why it is kicking is because you have to much sag, and possibly not enough low speed compression (to soft).

Rear end kicks sideways in two scenarios:

1. To soft compression or to soft spring (runs through the stroke to quick, and wants to rebound before you have passed the obstacle/jump face)
or
2. To fast rebound

If you are around stock clicker settings, number 2 shall not apply. Going in on rebound to much in rear in combination with high sag numbers removes a lot of front end pressure. Rebound in rear has huge impact on ride height in rear, which translate to front end pressure. For that you then instead soften up the fork. So with that slow rebound you will get problems with packing as well as front end traction due to having to soften front. The suspension will overall work to low in the stroke and that really shows when tracks get beaten up. You are in for a rough ride Smooth track you might not notice.

What you are doing by going in on rebound in rear, is band aiding symptoms of another problem so to say

Jensenyo wrote:

Talking about sag and suspension, I have always liked a bit more sag on the my ktm 2016 and forward. Have owned 250f 350 and now...

Talking about sag and suspension, I have always liked a bit more sag on the my ktm 2016 and forward. Have owned 250f 350 and now 250sx. I feel that I loose a lot of traction when running less than around 107-110 sag in the rear with forks on the first 2,5mm line or flush. Also the bike settles and turns where I want with the rear lower.

But I also think that the rear is too soft on big bumps and jumpfaces. Right now I'm running an ohlins flow shock and cartridges and they even recommend 100mm sag! but also an springrate lighter than ktm stock for my weight.

Anyone who has any ideas how to get traction and steering right with less sag? For the steering Im thinking of trying to tighten steeringstem maby?

aees wrote:

Can we get more stats? Front end clickers, air pressure, your weight, spring preload? Stock valving? Ohlins spring recommendation is in line with WP (actually pretty...

Can we get more stats? Front end clickers, air pressure, your weight, spring preload? Stock valving?

Ohlins spring recommendation is in line with WP (actually pretty spot on), it is just that Ohlins write their weight including rider gear which adds about 7kg. With the TTX Flow on KTM you can run less static sag with benefit.

aees wrote:

Can we get more stats? Front end clickers, air pressure, your weight, spring preload? Stock valving? Ohlins spring recommendation is in line with WP (actually pretty...

Can we get more stats? Front end clickers, air pressure, your weight, spring preload? Stock valving?

Ohlins spring recommendation is in line with WP (actually pretty spot on), it is just that Ohlins write their weight including rider gear which adds about 7kg. With the TTX Flow on KTM you can run less static sag with benefit.

Jensenyo wrote:

Sure. I have ttx cartridges in my aer's at the moment, with 4.7 springs in them. clickers are stock 14/14 and forks at first line. On...

Sure. I have ttx cartridges in my aer's at the moment, with 4.7 springs in them. clickers are stock 14/14 and forks at first line. On the shock i have an 40nm spring, around 35mm static and 107mm riding sag. Have messed around some with the clickers but tried stock 6C 9R on some whooped out pretty fast enduro last week and it worked good, But I have been to mx tracks with this setup and especially on jumpfaces the shock feels soft, like its missing some higspeed comp.
Valvings are stock on the Ohlins.

I weigh 80kgs/176lb without gear

aees wrote:

107 is too much. You need to go to 104-105mm with the TTX Flow and as long as you are between 6-10mm of preload on the...

107 is too much. You need to go to 104-105mm with the TTX Flow and as long as you are between 6-10mm of preload on the spring you are fine. Ohlins use a lot of preload on the forks, up to 10mm so you need to be at the same to get balance in the bike.

On KTM with TTX flow you should with benefit be at a lower static sag then 35, which you will get if you to 104-105 sag (around 32-33 static).

aees wrote:

Where will you ride in Sweden, Ripa?

aees wrote:

Where will you ride in Sweden, Ripa?

Jensenyo wrote:

That's the plan.

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where...

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where the collars are on the shock. High up on the shock low preload number? Low on the shock high preload number?

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where...

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where the collars are on the shock. High up on the shock low preload number? Low on the shock high preload number?

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where...

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where the collars are on the shock. High up on the shock low preload number? Low on the shock high preload number?

slipdog wrote:

That is correct and you would have to measure the length of the spring off the shock and then after you tighten the preload collar to...

That is correct and you would have to measure the length of the spring off the shock and then after you tighten the preload collar to accurately know the installed preload number.

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where...

How do you get this 6mm preload number? I think understand all of the setting sag thing besides the preload. Is the preload basically just where the collars are on the shock. High up on the shock low preload number? Low on the shock high preload number?

slipdog wrote:

That is correct and you would have to measure the length of the spring off the shock and then after you tighten the preload collar to...

That is correct and you would have to measure the length of the spring off the shock and then after you tighten the preload collar to accurately know the installed preload number.

F150Motocrosser wrote:

Yea, what Slip said. I'll usually bring the preload collar down until it is just barely starting to make contact with the spring (so as close...

Yea, what Slip said. I'll usually bring the preload collar down until it is just barely starting to make contact with the spring (so as close to an accurate 'zero' point as possible) and measure from a fixed point on the bike to the top of the preload collar. Then I write that down. As I start compressing the spring with the preload collar, I'll measure again from the fixed point on the bike to the same location on the preload collar. Compare this to the first number and that will be how much preload has been put on the shock.

As I'm sure someone has already said, if you have to go beyond around 10mm of preload to achieve desired sag numbers, the spring rate of the shock spring isn't correct for your weight.

(slip or any other experts, please correct me if I'm wrong on any of that? I learn from you guys haha)

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn...

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn could result in harsh rebound? Flip flopped for a spring to light for my weight resulting in weak rebound? Is this correct? Or am I cooked lmao

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn...

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn could result in harsh rebound? Flip flopped for a spring to light for my weight resulting in weak rebound? Is this correct? Or am I cooked lmao

zeikei wrote:

You are thinking backwards. Adding preload extends the shock and therefore increases the ride height, i.e. less sag. If you have weak spring then initially your...

You are thinking backwards. Adding preload extends the shock and therefore increases the ride height, i.e. less sag. If you have weak spring then initially your ride height will be too low (too much sag) and therefore you need to compensate that with more preload. But it will still bottom out sooner than with correct spring. Always choose correct spring for your weight instead of trying to fix that with shock settings.

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn...

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn could result in harsh rebound? Flip flopped for a spring to light for my weight resulting in weak rebound? Is this correct? Or am I cooked lmao

zeikei wrote:

You are thinking backwards. Adding preload extends the shock and therefore increases the ride height, i.e. less sag. If you have weak spring then initially your...

You are thinking backwards. Adding preload extends the shock and therefore increases the ride height, i.e. less sag. If you have weak spring then initially your ride height will be too low (too much sag) and therefore you need to compensate that with more preload. But it will still bottom out sooner than with correct spring. Always choose correct spring for your weight instead of trying to fix that with shock settings.

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

I'm pretty sure loosening the collars(decreasing preload) extends the spring making the bike sit higher

Dylanyuen271 wrote:

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn...

My logic is a spring that is too stiff for my weight will need alot of preload to obtain the desired rider sag. Which in turn could result in harsh rebound? Flip flopped for a spring to light for my weight resulting in weak rebound? Is this correct? Or am I cooked lmao

zeikei wrote:

You are thinking backwards. Adding preload extends the shock and therefore increases the ride height, i.e. less sag. If you have weak spring then initially your...

You are thinking backwards. Adding preload extends the shock and therefore increases the ride height, i.e. less sag. If you have weak spring then initially your ride height will be too low (too much sag) and therefore you need to compensate that with more preload. But it will still bottom out sooner than with correct spring. Always choose correct spring for your weight instead of trying to fix that with shock settings.

aees wrote:

You where close in the beginning but are now way off. Go back to 42nm 105mm sag. 15R 15C 2.5HSC. Fork 148-150psi, 15C, 13R. Can go...

You where close in the beginning but are now way off.

Go back to 42nm 105mm sag. 15R 15C 2.5HSC. Fork 148-150psi, 15C, 13R. Can go to 10R if it is hard packed.

The only thing you can change if you are not happy with it, is go to 45nm and 105mm sag. Same clickers as starting point.

Set it to 105 sag, and then test 148 or 150psi and see what you like best. When you have set that, you can also try quarter turn on preload in rear to see if it gets better or worse. Dont touch clickers until you are done here.

You can when you found a good base setting as above, try the PC linkage but you need to get decent number there also. If you run PC linkage you should go up two steps in spring, so i would say 50nm for you.

But again, remove PC linkage and go back to above.