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ricozinn, I had an issue syncing last week and talked with Brandon. I believe he was going to talk to you and get back to me. He was just heading up to Mammoth, so I assume he spaced it out, which is no big deal. You guys do an excellent job with customer service and I thank you for that.
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I am Nino, the founder of CrossBox Lap Timing. First of all, I would like to thank all the riders from the US using CrossBox already. And I would also like to mention that we know Litpro pretty well and it is a great tool too.
We are working hard to provide a state-of-the-art app that shows motocross athletes all the essential information to analyse laps and reduce the times. If you decide to buy just the XGPS160 online, of course, you could use different apps (like MX Buddy). But you need to know that your options for analysing will be limited. If you only would like to see your lap times, they will do the job. But if you would like to get more insights (f.e. to find out where you are losing time on the track, what your best lines would like like and what your theoratical lap time would be), you need to go with CrossBox or Litpro. There are so many features you will miss at other apps like:
> Comparing laps with each other
> See your theoratical best lap
> Highlight fastest lines
> Get section times (MX-Buddy shows section times but others won't)
> Play a real time animation of your laps
> Get the speed on any given position of the track
> Share laps with friends to compete in a real time animation
Next I would like to highlight the pros and cons if you compare just Litpro with CrossBox:
Pros CrossBox:
> CrossBox works offline: CrossBox will let you analyse your laps also when no internet connection is given. (Think about the amount of tracks where the internet connection is really weak) You can save a backup of your data on the server any time you reach wifi, just to make sure you never lose any data.
> Only CrossBox gives the opportunity to display all the laps in one view together with the fastest lines of each section.
> The syncing process time (loading the recorded data from the XGPS to the CrossBox app) only takes 2 minutes for a 30 minutes moto (Litpro takes appr. 10 minutes, the reason for that is the higher update rate of Litpro and the other parameters like jump analysis that the Litpro records)
We made several tests to compare the accuracy of Litpro and the XGPS + CrossBox app, together with a high-speed camera as a reference. We found out that the lap times, though the position update rate is twice as high at Litpro, show the same accuracy (maximum fluctuation +/- 0,05 seconds in both products). The reason for that is that we use interpolation to calculate lap times even with less amount of data points. Litpro is not more accurate compared to CrossBox (We will also release the test soon) Wth the current GPS-technology, it is just not possible to give better accuracy then CrossBox or Litpro. Even if your device records 100 positions/second, there is a risk that the GPS positions are shifted from the real path.
Pros Litpro:
> You will be able to analyse the jump height and jump distance, which is really good if you are a professional supercross rider.
> The current crossbox app won't let you zoom in your path and you can not record your heart rate while riding (but CrossBox is working on that and will release an update of the software, available as a free download, soon)
Just let me know if you have any questions regarding to CrossBox,
- Nino
I’ve been riding with a polar watch and an H7 HRM for a few years. Probably two years ago I missed an email or ad or something from lit pro for a Black Friday sale and tried to buy Monday or tuesday but it was back to msrp. I kick myself to this day for that.
But, true!
I think the owners gave a lot of good info about their products, which is extremely cool that they posted here, but I don't believe they actually answered the question. I think it boils down to the info below
LitPro
$500
20hz Refresh Rate GPS
Crossbox
$285 USD (249 euro)
10hz Refresh Rate (This is old and not relevant, as of 2020 CrossBox created their own gps with 20hz, just like LitPro!) Also still at a great price of around $265.
I think the biggest Pro for LitPro is the hardware and refresh rate. 10hz is 10 data locations uploaded per second. LitPro uses 20hz which means 20 locations are updated per second. So technically speaking, the LitPro should be 2 times more accurate. So if you really want to see the exact line you took in a corner, you need the LitPro.
The biggest Pro for the Crossbox is price. You get the entire "kit" for $285. The GPS is currently on eBay for $135 with free shipping. But, Amazon reviews show there are chances of getting DOA device. Other reviews state that when it works they love it. So if you get a working device, hopefully you'll be set for awhile. The Crossbox app, for unlimited usage, is 179 euro or $207 usd. So you are getting some decent savings by purchasing the "kit" from Crossbox directly. The next pro for Crossbox is you can replace the hardware for $135. I'm not sure what the warranty is on a LitPro but I'm sure it expires sometime, and if it fails you will need to fork over another $500.
Here is another alternative:
MX Buddy
$140
App $3.99
GPS $135
You get just as good tracking as Crossbox at half the price. The App isn't nearly as in-depth with statistics and line choices as the other apps. But for the price, I'm sure a lower classed rider will pick up some speeds using lap times alone.
I'm not sure which is best for you. Do you NEED to know exactly which line you took on a given course? Like, the inner most inside line vs maybe a line 12 inches to the left or right of that rut? If you need to know that information, which I would think most Pro's and Pro-Ams would need, then go with LitPro. Does the C Class rider need this? No. I think you'll be fine knowing if you went high or low in a given turn. I would think MX Buddy route with the GPS sensor would be best for C and B riders. But I think if you are serious and want to turn this into something more than playing on the weekend, you need the LitPro.
Anyway, it is kind of a serious question. I've seen guys in karts who were not able to do 3 consistent laps trying to analyze data from lambda sensors in their exhaust. That seemed overkill to me.
it seems like the ability to see which line you used is faster or slower seems a good help, but just wondering if spending this money would be better spend on following some lessons from an mx coach/trainer. At least i can imagine that your typical c rider will have a hard time getting through the same rut in the same time 3 times in a row due to lack of technique.
Could you explain to me why an update rate of 20Hz (compared to 10Hz) should lead to see the lines better on a track? It does not say that the positions are more accurate. It just says, that there are more positions in between recorded. So, if you have 10 per second, you have approx. 40 positions through a corner if it takes 4 seconds. This is more than enough to check which line the rider chose. As I mentioned before, tests have shown that lap times are not more accurate with a higher amount of update rates. Actually, in my opinion, you have more cons then pros when recording the motos with such high update rate, because the data size gets very big and it takes more than twice as long to sync the gps with your phone after the moto.
The XGPS160 comes with a 1 year warranty. So if the device doesn`t work, just ship it back and get a new one. By the way, we are selling a big amount of devices each week, we also test them before sending them out, and I can say that we are more than happy with the quality - approx. 1 out of 200 devices is defect., so thats pretty normal for electronical devices.
- Nino
Pit Row
> braking earlier but accelerating earlier
> ride smoother
> take more momentum through the corner
> try corners with higher gears
How do you know if a technique works better for you if you never analyse your motos afterwards?
I am a sport scientist and I am always wondering about 90% of the mx-riders. In so many other sports the athletes understand that analysing is key to improve fast. In motocross most of the riders think that just riding laps will make you faster. Well, it does, but , if you would analyse your laps you could have twice as much progress in the same time. How will you ever now if what you did on the track makes sense or not.
So in my point of view, yes, a lap anaysing tool like CrossBox or Litpro should be used by every athlete that wants to improve their riding skills.I think it is just a question of time, until EVERY motocross rider uses a tool like this.
- Nino
Unfortunately since last year you are not allowed to use an action cam anymore (at least over here). Insurance issue.
Right now though it isn't that our customers aren't sure if they need 20hz or 10hz or 1hz its that they don't know how fun lap times are to ride with. Everyone thinks its only pro racing teams that need lap times and the best thing that could happen as a result of this thread is that you just get a taste for how fun it is to ride with lap times. It's a whole other way to enjoy the sport that makes on-the-bike time more fun and purposeful, as well as all the enjoyment you'll get once you are back at the office. Give it a shot
I own a LITPro and an XGPS160 (CrossBox) as well and I’d like to give a brief overview of all the three solutions and what to expect from them. I try to be as unbiased as possible
MX Buddy
+ Works with all GPS devices paired with your iPhone
+ GPS precision as good as the used GPS device delivers
+ XGPS160 direct download
+ GPS files import (e.g. exported from Polar, Garmin, etc.)
+ Lap times import from LITPro and MYLAPS
+ Calculates lap and segment times
+ Calculates theoretical best lap time (based on best segments)
+ Live display (best for a bar pad mount)
+ Siri speaks lap times and segment infos
+ Extensive bike setups assigned to tracks and conditions
+ Heart rate recording (needs a heart rate belt)
+ Works without internet connection
+ No user account needed
+ Displays laps and segments on a zoomable map with color coded speeds
(Lap navigation with time line, speeds and lap comparison will be available with v2.16)
CrossBox
+ Most features mentioned above
+ Operates with XGPS160
+ Lap navigation with timeline
+ Lap comparison on a map
+ Compare riding sessions with other riders
- No heart rate
- No zooming in on maps
LITPro
+ Most features mentioned above
+ Hardware and software explicitly designed for motocross
+ 20Hz GPS fused with other sensor data (gyro and accelerometer)
+ Cornering analysis (with theoretical best lap time)
+ Jump analysis
+ Start analysis
+ Acceleration and decceleration analysis
+ High definition maps
+ Very sturdy and waterproof
+ Extensive live timing for riders and trainers with communication
+ SAFERIDE™
+ Has been used and accepted as a training device by professional riders and trainers for years
- needs internet connection
- slower sync than with XGPS160 (has more data points to transfer)
Each of the three solutions was developed with the aim of providing an optimal solution for motocross riders and coaches, using three different approaches with different hardware, software and pricing. It's your choice
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