450 class, embarassing.

estebanglas 5/27/2018 6:24am
5/27/2018 6:24am
I think you're looking at the problem from the wrong end of the stick.
20+ years ago there was less of a gap between the top guys and the rest of the field not because everyone was better but because everyone was worse. Before you jump to my throat let me explain.

The top guys now train at dedicated facilities (Bakers Factory, Tomac's Ranch) all week every week. They take care of nutrition, spend countless hours at the gym, on a road bicycle, running. They measure everything from hear rate to ergonomics as well as every aspect of a bike's performance.

All of that takes huge investments. Add all the custom parts and small improvements. Only factory teams and riders can afford the entire package, the other 30~32 guys out there do the best they can. Privateers have day jobs. They don't stand a chance.

Unless something is made so that 3/4ths of the field can actually make a decent living and invest in the athlets and machines this is not going away.

All that being said I really enjoyed Glen Helen. Kroc's lead on moto 1 was inspiring (what can't he overcome!?!?!) and Anderson was great on moto 2. Tomac killed it, yes, but I think 94 and 21 will only improve throughout the season and spice things up quite a bit.
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Huevos 5/27/2018 6:25am
5/27/2018 6:25am
RC literally lapped the entire field in ‘06. He regularly lapped into the top 10. This is not a new trend. Eli has that kind of speed. I don’t know why we’re even talking about this.
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yak651 5/27/2018 6:30am
5/27/2018 6:30am
bodean123 wrote:
I wonder how things would shake out if everyone was on a 250f?
The racing would be a lot closer. Watch at Thundervalley with less HP the racing will be better and the 250 class will be insane. Less HP keeps everyone closer together.
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OldPro277 5/27/2018 6:42am
5/27/2018 6:42am
TDeath21 wrote:
An already expensive sport is now even more expensive, depleting the potential talent pool even more. We all know Stewart’s story. Where he came from and...
An already expensive sport is now even more expensive, depleting the potential talent pool even more. We all know Stewart’s story. Where he came from and what he came to be with his incredible talent. His dad worked long hours and then got home to take James riding till sundown. Then on weekends they’d pack up for the races. Does someone in his situation ever get that opportunity today? Probably not. Just wouldn’t be sustainable. They’d have probably called his career quits at a young age or maybe never even start because of the cost. And thus the most talented rider in recent memory never throws a leg over a bike. Very possible that what we are seeing today are the effects of the rising costs leading to fewer opportunities and thus a thinner field.
Among all the asinine ,delusional posts in this thread lies this gem of a VERY true and accurate assessment of the situation.. great job TDeath. I started having this exact thought 12+ years ago as 4 strokes took over/costs skyrocketed/injuries became more commonplace and severe, and the proof was at the grassroots level. Our local gates were slashed from 25-35 in the A classes to sometimes now lucky to have 5-7 guys. It doesn't take a Mensa member to realize that with less and less local participation that eventually leads to depleted talent pools to feed the Pro level.

That being said-- back then (2003-2007ish) I was helping/training/sponsoring a local Pro who routinely destroyed those 35 man A- gates that were full of ridiculously fast guys. This guy won 80%+ of these Motos handily and easily, yet STILL had an extremely hard time just qualifying for the "fast 40" --probably a little over half the time having to go to the Consi race. Point being that even the guys running in the 30-40th place at the Nationals are insanely fast,and I would never say that they are "embarrassing" or "don't deserve to be out there" or any other of the comments being made, but its certainly no secret that the sport(DC -Mx Sports?) needs to do something fast in the next couple of years to re-energize the local participation. Whats the long term answer? And who can do it ? The manufacturers,sanctioning bodies and promoters need to get their shit together and work on it .

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lumpy790 5/27/2018 6:49am
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Husky807 5/27/2018 7:01am
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cookies wrote:
6th place 2 minutes 30 seconds behind, just wow.. Dizzy
Marv was damn near a minute down in that second moto. When Eli rides like that from gate drop to the checkers it's game over for everyone and the track was pretty brutal which made for some mad separation. Plus with Seely, Deano, Webb, Bogle and Grant injured and Tickle suspended the field is pretty depleted right now.
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MotoMalyDad 5/27/2018 7:28am
5/27/2018 7:28am
Put everyone on the same bike , from age 14 have the same training program no more , no less. Until that happens, if you don't have the money and can't put in the long hours of working out and training, you probably will get lapped.
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early 5/27/2018 7:31am
5/27/2018 7:31am
The team structure of the 450s where there is an "A" rider and a "B" rider really hurts the class. Teams are catered to just one guy so the motivation to move the fast guys up from the 250s isn't there. 250 teams are structures with more equals so they can line up with 4 riders instead of 2
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gabrielito 5/27/2018 7:35am
5/27/2018 7:35am
And they won every race except when they raced each other than only one of them won.
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slipdog 5/27/2018 7:36am
5/27/2018 7:36am
You guys are funny. Most of you don't know shit about being at the pro level, but you're funny...


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gabrielito 5/27/2018 7:41am
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philG
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philG 5/27/2018 8:17am
5/27/2018 8:17am
Move the 10 guys up out of 250 who should be there. That will solve it..
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FI2T 5/27/2018 8:52am
5/27/2018 8:52am Edited Date/Time 5/27/2018 8:53am
Wow, the 250 class is officially the more competitive class. 19 250 riders got in 14 laps.... only 9 450 guys got 14 in.
GeorgiePorgie 5/27/2018 9:01am
5/27/2018 9:01am Edited Date/Time 5/27/2018 9:02am
slipdog wrote:
You guys are funny. Most of you don't know shit about being at the pro level, but you're funny...


Yep.

The 250s are deep now. Once they start moving up there will be more close action battles that apparently everyone on vital is longing for....
m121c 5/27/2018 9:06am
5/27/2018 9:06am
Is it talent/skill, or bikes that are just too fast for their own good? Seems the 250 class produces really good racing with a wider range of riders every weekend with less injuries.

Sure one can argue that only the best will be able to master the challenge of the 450, and your not wrong, but then you get results like this. Only a select few riders can ride those bikes for a full 30 +2 to their full potential. How many very fast and competitive 250 guys (and champions) do we see jump to the bigger bike and struggle?

Food for thought. To me the current classes of today are not the 125 and 250 classes of yesterday, but rather the 250 and 500 class.
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yz133rider 5/27/2018 9:12am
5/27/2018 9:12am
m121c wrote:
Is it talent/skill, or bikes that are just too fast for their own good? Seems the 250 class produces really good racing with a wider range...
Is it talent/skill, or bikes that are just too fast for their own good? Seems the 250 class produces really good racing with a wider range of riders every weekend with less injuries.

Sure one can argue that only the best will be able to master the challenge of the 450, and your not wrong, but then you get results like this. Only a select few riders can ride those bikes for a full 30 +2 to their full potential. How many very fast and competitive 250 guys (and champions) do we see jump to the bigger bike and struggle?

Food for thought. To me the current classes of today are not the 125 and 250 classes of yesterday, but rather the 250 and 500 class.
Agreed with that thinking also but there is still a lack of depth also.
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MPJC 5/27/2018 9:20am
5/27/2018 9:20am
The best of the best are better than everyone else. Who knew?
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yz133rider 5/27/2018 9:22am
5/27/2018 9:22am
MPJC wrote:
The best of the best are better than everyone else. Who knew?
Thats not the entire point. Kroc coming back thru the pack batting for 12th with a 3 digit guy. Wouldnt you expect 12th let alone in the top 10 of the to have some heavy hitters, past champs, race winners etc?

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MR. X 5/27/2018 9:26am
5/27/2018 9:26am
Any of those dudes on the pro gate would blow your mind at a local race , the top guys are just that fast.
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newmann 5/27/2018 9:30am
5/27/2018 9:30am
But, but, but, the 450 is the EQUALIZER! Equal in that it will fuck up the fastest riders just as fast as it will fuck up the slower ones.

I won’t discredit guys running in 40th at the National level anymore than I would someone hanging out in the 250 class for a decade that is knocking down a million dollar a year gig when there is nothing available to him in the 450 class.

If someone in charge would have given the 125 class a affordable to compete 6 race National Championship to up and coming riders maybe, just maybe some fresh talent could find their way on up.

Instead, as Mitch Payton referred to as an unfortunate situation damn near two decades ago, the up and comers are dumped into the 250 F class against bikes with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into them. Anyone with half a brain could see that as a detriment to the sport. Anyone care to argue that point???
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newmann 5/27/2018 9:34am
5/27/2018 9:34am
MR. X wrote:
Any of those dudes on the pro gate would blow your mind at a local race , the top guys are just that fast.
Someone up above took a stab at Jeff Dement. I seem to recall he was a bit of a star mini riderWink .

Not to mention I clocked him around Rio on a RM 80 clicking off lap times 11 seconds faster than the local pros at the time on 250’s. The same local pros who had a tough go trying to break into the national level game. Dement was damn quick on the 125’s as well.
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MPJC 5/27/2018 9:41am
5/27/2018 9:41am
MPJC wrote:
The best of the best are better than everyone else. Who knew?
yz133rider wrote:
Thats not the entire point. Kroc coming back thru the pack batting for 12th with a 3 digit guy. Wouldnt you expect 12th let alone in...
Thats not the entire point. Kroc coming back thru the pack batting for 12th with a 3 digit guy. Wouldnt you expect 12th let alone in the top 10 of the to have some heavy hitters, past champs, race winners etc?
The 250 class has up and coming racers, so one should expect the competition to be fierce. But once racers pass that up and comer stage, they typically have very short careers, relatively speaking. When champs usually retire in their 20s there's not going to be a whole lot of past champs filling out the field. They retire in their 20s because it's a very tough sport. Given that, to call the rest of the field "embarrassing" strikes me as unnecessarily uncharitable to the guys who are good enough to make a national.
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yz133rider 5/27/2018 9:54am
5/27/2018 9:54am
You all are being being sensitive in defending a bunch of unknowns. Vital is a fickle bunch lol. Chad reed gets a few 10th he should retire. Some 3 digit dude gets 35th i should be in awe and reverent of his outdoor prowess.
WheelieNelson 5/27/2018 9:58am
5/27/2018 9:58am
What place did you get?
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yz133rider 5/27/2018 10:01am
5/27/2018 10:01am
WheelieNelson wrote:
What place did you get?
Fantastic come back and very relevant to the discusssion. I guess nobody on here should start any topics about pros at all...
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philG 5/27/2018 10:07am
5/27/2018 10:07am
newmann wrote:
But, but, but, the 450 is the EQUALIZER! Equal in that it will fuck up the fastest riders just as fast as it will fuck up...
But, but, but, the 450 is the EQUALIZER! Equal in that it will fuck up the fastest riders just as fast as it will fuck up the slower ones.

I won’t discredit guys running in 40th at the National level anymore than I would someone hanging out in the 250 class for a decade that is knocking down a million dollar a year gig when there is nothing available to him in the 450 class.

If someone in charge would have given the 125 class a affordable to compete 6 race National Championship to up and coming riders maybe, just maybe some fresh talent could find their way on up.

Instead, as Mitch Payton referred to as an unfortunate situation damn near two decades ago, the up and comers are dumped into the 250 F class against bikes with hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into them. Anyone with half a brain could see that as a detriment to the sport. Anyone care to argue that point???
Nothing to disagree with there.
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MPJC 5/27/2018 10:09am
5/27/2018 10:09am
I guess that the question to ask would be: What would it take to have parity deeper into the 450 class? Is there any good answer to that question? Is that something we should actually want?
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Preston412 5/27/2018 10:14am
5/27/2018 10:14am
No different then last year. Tomac, Musquin, Anderson and then some flashes from other riders through out the 24 motos and the top 3 lapping into the top 10.

I would like to see a perfect season for Tomac.
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philG 5/27/2018 10:20am
5/27/2018 10:20am
MPJC wrote:
I guess that the question to ask would be: What would it take to have parity deeper into the 450 class? Is there any good answer...
I guess that the question to ask would be: What would it take to have parity deeper into the 450 class? Is there any good answer to that question? Is that something we should actually want?
250 guys moving up would be a start.
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slipdog 5/27/2018 10:28am
5/27/2018 10:28am
MPJC wrote:
I guess that the question to ask would be: What would it take to have parity deeper into the 450 class? Is there any good answer...
I guess that the question to ask would be: What would it take to have parity deeper into the 450 class? Is there any good answer to that question? Is that something we should actually want?
philG wrote:
250 guys moving up would be a start.
This has been beaten to death because in the US it is a National class, but you are correct, if there was an age rule like in the GP series there would be more fast guys in the 450 class. Then we would run into the problem of a weak 250 class.

Post a reply to: 450 class, embarassing.