JGR: "B-level" Team?

aees
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aees 1/31/2018 5:36am
1/31/2018 5:36am
I think it is setup related with Hill. Reason why they are trying so many different things during weekend (testing). JS7 does not like to train so he has himself to blame. You make mistakes when you are not in shape.

I agree with Matthes, this "It is mental" needs to stop.

The top 5--8 riders, that can go quick, will do that when they have a bike and setup that matches. Period. I have stated this before, and they are the best examples:

Roczen 2016: Started shit on Suzuki. Changed triple clamps (went back to stock offset), went right to top
Tomac 2017: To stiff setup on bike. Changed it, went on a winning streak.
Barcia 2018: Went to Yamaha (compare Monster Cup for example, private effort, no where near front). BAM(BAM), top 4 guy. Dont come and tell me "it is mental". It is ridiculous.
Hill: Running fastest qualifier during daytime on smooth track. Bike works shit on beaten down track

When you are chasing 500ms/lap (maybe 1sec in extreme cases) that is difference between winning and top 5, bike setup matters. One click could be different between turning + good in whoops rather then just one of them.

With this "it is all mental" thinking. What do you think would happen if you took Tomac and put him on Barcias bike, or Barcia on Anderson bike? No changes allowed, just set sag and handlebar/levers. If setup does not matter they should be within same times. Im saying they would be 1.5sec of at least. If they even could finish a lap on the bike.
Steadman
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Steadman 1/31/2018 5:58am
1/31/2018 5:58am
Compared to these guys....then yes.





TXDirt
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TXDirt 1/31/2018 6:18am
1/31/2018 6:18am
aees wrote:
I think it is setup related with Hill. Reason why they are trying so many different things during weekend (testing). JS7 does not like to train...
I think it is setup related with Hill. Reason why they are trying so many different things during weekend (testing). JS7 does not like to train so he has himself to blame. You make mistakes when you are not in shape.

I agree with Matthes, this "It is mental" needs to stop.

The top 5--8 riders, that can go quick, will do that when they have a bike and setup that matches. Period. I have stated this before, and they are the best examples:

Roczen 2016: Started shit on Suzuki. Changed triple clamps (went back to stock offset), went right to top
Tomac 2017: To stiff setup on bike. Changed it, went on a winning streak.
Barcia 2018: Went to Yamaha (compare Monster Cup for example, private effort, no where near front). BAM(BAM), top 4 guy. Dont come and tell me "it is mental". It is ridiculous.
Hill: Running fastest qualifier during daytime on smooth track. Bike works shit on beaten down track

When you are chasing 500ms/lap (maybe 1sec in extreme cases) that is difference between winning and top 5, bike setup matters. One click could be different between turning + good in whoops rather then just one of them.

With this "it is all mental" thinking. What do you think would happen if you took Tomac and put him on Barcias bike, or Barcia on Anderson bike? No changes allowed, just set sag and handlebar/levers. If setup does not matter they should be within same times. Im saying they would be 1.5sec of at least. If they even could finish a lap on the bike.
If they could even finish a lap on the bike? Really?? Whistling

When you are struggling with the mental game then you will always be searching for settings.

Bones from Pro Circuit would tell riders he made a change when in fact he didn't. Rider goes out and sets a faster lap time and rider comes back in and says changes were great! So what do you say about that then? That was nothing more then a placebo.

It's 90% mental and 10% bike. It always has been.

I agree being comfortable with your machine can sometimes be the difference between winning and top 5. But you are way overstating that it's due solely to the settings. Put a good rider on any machine and with some practice time he will still be in the top 5. Which is pretty damn good. And plenty of top riders can have their settings completely dialed in that race day and still not win and be only top 5 for the day.
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Fearo 1/31/2018 6:24am
1/31/2018 6:24am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2018 6:24am
I sort of agree with that but in Hill's case I truly think it's a rare case of the bike's being the underlying problem.
I agree, a great rider can win on anything on a 450 and even so for the majority of the 250s but I really think the Suzuki 250F is so far behind compared to a KTM or Yamaha for a pro rider that said rider would have to be ultra dominant to be able to win on that bike.

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aees
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aees 1/31/2018 6:31am
1/31/2018 6:31am
The reason is bike setting is important is that riders have a certain riding style and behavior on the bike. Poor match = poor results. Again, Roczen and Tomac, and Barcia being prime examples over last 2 years. Name one rider that "mentally has gone from outside top 5, to inside on the same equipment, same settings?

Tomac vs Herlings was excellent example. Herlings was up with 4 sec. Tomac had to go in and stiffen up his suspension to be able to go faster. Bike did not allow it to be ridden faster when he started pushing over his normal tempo. If Herlings would not have been there, he would not have cut the times by 3sec. And he could not cut the time because bike was not setup to go faster.

it can only be mental, if you are not expecting yourselves to perform. No rider goes out and expect them not to perform unless there is a history of it (again, cant be mental day 1 of failure) or they are hurt.

I know Bones have stated that, but to be honest how many times do you think that has happen on top 10 riders in AMA SX or MX? i could guess absolutely zero times.

TXDirt
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TXDirt 1/31/2018 6:36am
1/31/2018 6:36am
aees wrote:
The reason is bike setting is important is that riders have a certain riding style and behavior on the bike. Poor match = poor results. Again...
The reason is bike setting is important is that riders have a certain riding style and behavior on the bike. Poor match = poor results. Again, Roczen and Tomac, and Barcia being prime examples over last 2 years. Name one rider that "mentally has gone from outside top 5, to inside on the same equipment, same settings?

Tomac vs Herlings was excellent example. Herlings was up with 4 sec. Tomac had to go in and stiffen up his suspension to be able to go faster. Bike did not allow it to be ridden faster when he started pushing over his normal tempo. If Herlings would not have been there, he would not have cut the times by 3sec. And he could not cut the time because bike was not setup to go faster.

it can only be mental, if you are not expecting yourselves to perform. No rider goes out and expect them not to perform unless there is a history of it (again, cant be mental day 1 of failure) or they are hurt.

I know Bones have stated that, but to be honest how many times do you think that has happen on top 10 riders in AMA SX or MX? i could guess absolutely zero times.

Bones has done that with championship PC riders on the Kawasaki test track numerous times! Go ask him. Bones has like 30+ years in the suspension business with PC. Who knows more, Bones or a 16 year old pipsqueak?

The rider is always searching for better lap times. But that doesn't always come from setting changes. Sometimes it just comes down to riding faster that lap.
MX-LIFE.
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MX-LIFE. 1/31/2018 7:02am
1/31/2018 7:02am
JMR1976 wrote:
JS7/JB51/JH1 Hmmm?
Donovan759 wrote:
Didn't Justin Hill come out with a statement that the bike is excellent and the results he has achieved this year are 100% on him, not...
Didn't Justin Hill come out with a statement that the bike is excellent and the results he has achieved this year are 100% on him, not the bike?

JB51 was a punk that was humbled when he didn't have a ride for MEC.

JS7 is a burnout. Millsaps was consistently getting top 5 results while JS7 was complaining that the bike was junk.
JGR isn't a B team operation! You mentioned when JS7 rode for them and they were riding that Yamaha I truly believe that bike was damn near killing him, he crashed so much on that bike I felt bad for him I was glad he left the team team they just couldn't get the bike sorted out for his riding style,ok Brayton, Millsaps didn't do to bad on the that bike but they don't ride like Stewart ( check the career record) and if I'm some what correct when JS7 went to Suzuki,yes he crashed a few times on that bike as well but in 2014 he was very much in contention for the championship that year had it not been for a CPL mechanicals he was in the fight I believe Daytona (pipe) and a DNS (clutch) at the Texas race! Now that JGR is on the Suzuki I think they results will come maybe they need another Next level guy to get them there but Weston is doing a pretty damn good job on that bike something has changed for sure! Resources I'm sure they have plenty! A CPL more tweaks and they will be on it..They should go after Baggett Next year
davistld01
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davistld01 1/31/2018 7:02am
1/31/2018 7:02am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2018 7:04am
GuyB wrote:
I don’t think it’s ever been a B team.
500guy wrote:
I think maybe what we have is a "D" level poster.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You'll do better with time/experience.
aees
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aees 1/31/2018 7:03am
1/31/2018 7:03am
aees wrote:
The reason is bike setting is important is that riders have a certain riding style and behavior on the bike. Poor match = poor results. Again...
The reason is bike setting is important is that riders have a certain riding style and behavior on the bike. Poor match = poor results. Again, Roczen and Tomac, and Barcia being prime examples over last 2 years. Name one rider that "mentally has gone from outside top 5, to inside on the same equipment, same settings?

Tomac vs Herlings was excellent example. Herlings was up with 4 sec. Tomac had to go in and stiffen up his suspension to be able to go faster. Bike did not allow it to be ridden faster when he started pushing over his normal tempo. If Herlings would not have been there, he would not have cut the times by 3sec. And he could not cut the time because bike was not setup to go faster.

it can only be mental, if you are not expecting yourselves to perform. No rider goes out and expect them not to perform unless there is a history of it (again, cant be mental day 1 of failure) or they are hurt.

I know Bones have stated that, but to be honest how many times do you think that has happen on top 10 riders in AMA SX or MX? i could guess absolutely zero times.

TXDirt wrote:
Bones has done that with championship PC riders on the Kawasaki test track numerous times! Go ask him. Bones has like 30+ years in the suspension...
Bones has done that with championship PC riders on the Kawasaki test track numerous times! Go ask him. Bones has like 30+ years in the suspension business with PC. Who knows more, Bones or a 16 year old pipsqueak?

The rider is always searching for better lap times. But that doesn't always come from setting changes. Sometimes it just comes down to riding faster that lap.
You are making assumptions that every rider can ride at 100% of its speed on all type of settings. That is false statement i claim. You can find exceptions, sure, but in general a rider rides as fast as he can, on the given setup. If you need to go faster, something needs to change. You can have days off, or heat races, or laps depending on type of track, food, or just not feeling secure (not doing a rythm) That can be mental, physical or whatever. But i struggle to see that weeks after weeks after months someone is "mentally" locked in to be slower.

Otherwise there would be no need for customization of bikes, or suspension clickers. Just give the rider some week and Tomac would deliver same laptimes on Anderssons Husky, as Barcia would on Ricky Carmichaels Suzuki.

Every bike has a fork, engine, shock and 2 wheels. Therefor it should be able to be ridden at the same laptime, by any rider. Old statement, old as hell.

10 riders is within the same second, on a 50sec laptime. This because they are riding on the edge. On the edge, every little tweak helps. Or you think mentally they are locked into ride in the 50-sec range?
mingham97
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mingham97 1/31/2018 7:19am
1/31/2018 7:19am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2018 7:21am
JGR are not a B-level team...? Foresight would be a marvelous thing wouldnt it? JS7 and JB51 were perfect candidates at the time they were hired. Think about it. 99.99% of managers would have hired them.

Nothing wrong with the bikes either. Their technicality is on par with many teams.
Mr. Knobby 1/31/2018 7:43am
1/31/2018 7:43am
People are being stupid. JGR are a factory level team and the bike and team have nothing to do with Barcia's results and performances:

JGR is just ONE of the teams that Barcia had a shot with already.
He for whatever reason didn't find his groove with any of them - or more likely - possibly didn't put in the effort he should have.
This season he slapped himself in the face and said "if I don't make something happen fast and put in the effort required, I'm going to fade away and never get another shot at this....."
Thus a new JB51 showed up this season with a new fire lit under his ass....
aees
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aees 1/31/2018 7:48am
1/31/2018 7:48am
Mr. Knobby wrote:
People are being stupid. JGR are a factory level team and the bike and team have nothing to do with Barcia's results and performances: JGR is...
People are being stupid. JGR are a factory level team and the bike and team have nothing to do with Barcia's results and performances:

JGR is just ONE of the teams that Barcia had a shot with already.
He for whatever reason didn't find his groove with any of them - or more likely - possibly didn't put in the effort he should have.
This season he slapped himself in the face and said "if I don't make something happen fast and put in the effort required, I'm going to fade away and never get another shot at this....."
Thus a new JB51 showed up this season with a new fire lit under his ass....
Yea, he really showed that fire on Monster Energy Cup on the Honda...
He then went from being a 20-10 guy 2015, 2016, 2017, to top 3 by changing his mind. Bike has nothing to do with it.
Rockinar
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Rockinar 1/31/2018 9:12am
1/31/2018 9:12am
leighracer wrote:
I'll probably get flamed for this comment, but after years of sub-standard results regardless of massive resources and some pretty decent riding talent. It's fairly obvious...
I'll probably get flamed for this comment, but after years of sub-standard results regardless of massive resources and some pretty decent riding talent. It's fairly obvious to me where the problem is. Lack of good management. Jeremy Albrecht, although a successful mechanic a decade ago, is clearly out of his depth in the critical role of managing all the working pieces that turn men and machines into winners. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but after so many seasons,he would seem to be the common denominator.
You figured all that out from sitting on your couch?
Dirty Points 1/31/2018 9:15am
1/31/2018 9:15am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2018 9:22am
Donovan759 wrote:
Didn't Justin Hill come out with a statement that the bike is excellent and the results he has achieved this year are 100% on him, not...
Didn't Justin Hill come out with a statement that the bike is excellent and the results he has achieved this year are 100% on him, not the bike?

JB51 was a punk that was humbled when he didn't have a ride for MEC.

JS7 is a burnout. Millsaps was consistently getting top 5 results while JS7 was complaining that the bike was junk.
I looked over some of the numbers to guess what is hurting Hill versus last season. I haven't done any thorough analysis yet, but what stuck out to me over the previous 11 races is that he is not a guy who has fought through the pack.. His ultimate finishing position is often pretty close to his start position; usually Justin can pick up a position or two, but he is not what I would classify as a charger.

Last year, his starts were excellent -- his average position of 4.0 was best in class. And he finished best in class. This year, his average start is 10.0, 9th in class. And he sits at 8th in class.

Now whether bike or rider, I don't know. But it may be more of a continuation of a pattern more than the breaking of one.
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jonesaustin 1/31/2018 9:18am
1/31/2018 9:18am
They need to lose a few stickers before they become "Factory".
Brent
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Brent 1/31/2018 9:24am
1/31/2018 9:24am
I’m surprised they have stuck with Albrecht all this time, must be out of loyalty, because he hasn’t been able to get more than hit and miss performances out of his riders...
Dirty Points 1/31/2018 9:26am
1/31/2018 9:26am
Brent wrote:
I’m surprised they have stuck with Albrecht all this time, must be out of loyalty, because he hasn’t been able to get more than hit and...
I’m surprised they have stuck with Albrecht all this time, must be out of loyalty, because he hasn’t been able to get more than hit and miss performances out of his riders...
It's also hard to pin that hit and miss on anyone in particular, when the biggest issue over the last few years with regard to the 'misses' is dudes who are just hurt.
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bball35 1/31/2018 9:31am
1/31/2018 9:31am
rdrurypi wrote:
Look at the quality of riders that they have had. JS7, JB10, JB 51, WP34, JG 33, JH 1. Who else am I missing? The shop...
Look at the quality of riders that they have had. JS7, JB10, JB 51, WP34, JG 33, JH 1. Who else am I missing? The shop rivals KTM’s shop and probably is able to make any custom part from a block of anything. Most factory teams in the US can’t do that and rely on Japan to give it to them. Me thinks they are a A level factory team.
But results don't lie. They are a disappointment considered the amount of $$ they have spent. I don't know what it is, but what they have been doing is not working.

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GoonSquad250x
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GoonSquad250x 1/31/2018 9:54am
1/31/2018 9:54am
leighracer wrote:
I'll probably get flamed for this comment, but after years of sub-standard results regardless of massive resources and some pretty decent riding talent. It's fairly obvious...
I'll probably get flamed for this comment, but after years of sub-standard results regardless of massive resources and some pretty decent riding talent. It's fairly obvious to me where the problem is. Lack of good management. Jeremy Albrecht, although a successful mechanic a decade ago, is clearly out of his depth in the critical role of managing all the working pieces that turn men and machines into winners. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but after so many seasons,he would seem to be the common denominator.
You kind of got a good point Leighracer. In any other sport, the "coach" would've been fired long ago.We see it in college football all the time. One bad season & even the top guys get a pink slip in their locker! Ala Jimbo Fisher. I like Jeremy a lot, but the success of the team rest on the shoulders of the team manager. If he can't put together a winning team after so many seasons, he may need to go. Its nothing personal, its just business. I don't know if they can separate friends from business over there though, so maybe thats why Jeremy is still there?

Yes its mainly on the riders, but it should be not different than any other sport where the coach gets axed before the players.
Steadman
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Steadman 1/31/2018 11:13am
1/31/2018 11:13am Edited Date/Time 1/31/2018 11:14am
leighracer wrote:
I'll probably get flamed for this comment, but after years of sub-standard results regardless of massive resources and some pretty decent riding talent. It's fairly obvious...
I'll probably get flamed for this comment, but after years of sub-standard results regardless of massive resources and some pretty decent riding talent. It's fairly obvious to me where the problem is. Lack of good management. Jeremy Albrecht, although a successful mechanic a decade ago, is clearly out of his depth in the critical role of managing all the working pieces that turn men and machines into winners. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but after so many seasons,he would seem to be the common denominator.
GoonSquad250x wrote:
You kind of got a good point Leighracer. In any other sport, the "coach" would've been fired long ago.We see it in college football all the...
You kind of got a good point Leighracer. In any other sport, the "coach" would've been fired long ago.We see it in college football all the time. One bad season & even the top guys get a pink slip in their locker! Ala Jimbo Fisher. I like Jeremy a lot, but the success of the team rest on the shoulders of the team manager. If he can't put together a winning team after so many seasons, he may need to go. Its nothing personal, its just business. I don't know if they can separate friends from business over there though, so maybe thats why Jeremy is still there?

Yes its mainly on the riders, but it should be not different than any other sport where the coach gets axed before the players.
I'd consider Jeremy an asset to the team. A guy with his experience and dedication to the sport is hard to find. I don't follow stick and ball sports but I've never understood why when a team sucks for even a single season, one person is deemed responsible for the collective failure. Either way I see Jeremy as a great leader for JGR.
51xc
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51xc 1/31/2018 2:13pm
1/31/2018 2:13pm Edited Date/Time 1/31/2018 2:14pm
mingham97 wrote:
JGR are not a B-level team...? Foresight would be a marvelous thing wouldnt it? JS7 and JB51 were perfect candidates at the time they were hired...
JGR are not a B-level team...? Foresight would be a marvelous thing wouldnt it? JS7 and JB51 were perfect candidates at the time they were hired. Think about it. 99.99% of managers would have hired them.

Nothing wrong with the bikes either. Their technicality is on par with many teams.
I'm almost sure that 2 of the pre-season injuries barcia had where because of mechanicals. bikes running out of fuel. engines blowing up, especially in '16 outdoors I think it was...
jgr sure has all the money to be factory level but something is still missing in my opinion. maybe the new suzuki effort will make a difference.
kkawboy14
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kkawboy14 1/31/2018 3:35pm
1/31/2018 3:35pm
They practice on a smooth as a baby’s butt practice track......

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