FINAL WORD! NO TWO-STROKES IN THE 250 NATIONALS

Racer92
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3/4/2009 9:50am
WhKnuckle wrote:
Why do the OEMs get to make the rules? OF COURSE they don't want two strokes out there beating the stuffing out of their most advanced...
Why do the OEMs get to make the rules? OF COURSE they don't want two strokes out there beating the stuffing out of their most advanced 250Fs. It's just like in '92 or whenever it was, Yamaha and Suzuki didn't make a competitive open class bike, so they just did away with the class. Rather than two manufacturers having to admit their bikes weren't very good and building better ones, they just ditched the entire class - and a whole generation of riders have grown up without ever having had the opportunity to ride the finest motocross weapons ever built.

The AMA and NPG should be interested in the sport, not the business. I understand there's an overlap there, but the idea of riding fast, inexpensive, reliable, uncomplicated motorcycles is a plus for the sport, no matter how a person justifies it. Those aholes caved into a special interest group at the expense of the riding public. It's wrong, just as wrong as it was to abolish 500s because two factories couldn't build a decent one.
You are correct. If the OEMs think the valve-munchers are so much better then it wouldnt matter if there were smokers in the mix.

Fukem, I have a decent RM250 and it aint going anywhere.
wardy
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3/4/2009 9:50am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
anybody thinking for a minute that OEM's will allow the two stroke back in, well i have a bridge to sell you.


we NEVER thought for A SECOND when pushing these rules for AMATUERS that it would work for OEM's. they make more money and have committed to the 4 stroke pile of crap because of it. So we can bitch and yell all we want, it's not a demoracy. The only way they would get the picture is if we ALL STAY HOME from ONE NATIONAL EVENT, and say bring back the two stroke or we stay home from two next year.

there is no way that will happen either.

so be thankful you have a choice to race a two stroke at your local race, you can thank your amatuer division of AMA for that.

now lets get the lead ban and other laws stopped which are coming down the pike with this administration.

As much as I think a Service Honda A/F is very "raceable" with a 450, don't think for one second they would allow that????? no chance in hell.

remember the amatuer side fought for 7 years to bring back the level playing field (stfu mx7mxwhat ever i don't want to hear it), and we brought the level playing field back fighting the "in crowd" OE people the whole way.

never fk with a big companies market plan it's not good for business......

that is all.............. LOL





calimxer91
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3/4/2009 9:52am
Fukem
GuyB
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3/4/2009 10:01am
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother...

It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race and find a way to have a bad time. Or maybe they just sit at home and have a worse time...I dunno...

There are plenty of bigger issues (including the economy, etc.) than whether two-strokes are allowed to race against the 250Fs. I'm guessing the majority of you are looking at it from a fan's perspective, purely "It'd be cool to see" rather than whether it makes sense as a business decision for the riders, teams, OEs, sanctioning body, etc.

My personal opinion? I think when the four-strokes were first developed, the 450 size advantage was needed to allow them to compete. When it became apparent that they had an unfair advantage over the 250s, their cc limit should have been adjusted downward.

Allowing the 250 two-strokes in among the 250Fs? It might help a handful of riders, but I'd guess that the 250F guys would end up spending even more money trying to wind their bikes even tighter to match the 250 two-strokes.

The Shop

mxrose3
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3/4/2009 10:03am
They are afraid, that if the two strokes start doing better than the four strokes- every kid will go out and buy a 2 stroke. Just like they did when the 4 strokes were given an advantage. This would hurt 4 stroke sales, 4 stroke exhaust sales, 4 stroke valve, spring, and head sales. I guess the economy can't handle change again right now.
indy_maico
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3/4/2009 10:07am
jbomx363 wrote:
[b]have you noticed that 90% of the TV ads are by the OEM's? [/b] No duh. Where else would they advertise and reach their intended market...
have you noticed that 90% of the TV ads are by the OEM's?

No duh. Where else would they advertise and reach their intended market so easily and cheaply???

The TV show of Desperate Housewives?

Why should we let it go? If the Amateur Rules allow for it, then the Pro's should too.

Of course, I'd gladly battle prize money all day long if anyone would push for it.

How can not watching a 250 2-stroke vs. a 250F not be exciting?
The point is, the OEM's are spending the money to pay for the show.

THAT is why MX Sports (or whoever it may be past or future) let them call the shots.
Ozzy
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3/4/2009 10:07am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
Having worn many hats, I have my views!
I clearly see the OEM's side of the story.
Many on here or elsewhere will certainly paint
them as the "bad guys" here, but simply put
they're WRONG.
The OEM's are actually all for us.
There wouldn't be anything to be for if it wasn't
for them, so think before throwing those stones.
Though the OEM's compete on the tracks of the world
& in the showrooms as well, they understand that both
them & us go hand-n-hand. Development of products takes
not only money, but huge amounts of time as well, &
flip flopping isn't done. It just isn't!
Also, given the current state of things worldwide, it's
another issue to add in to the mix.
Though they're competitors against each other, there's
also an alliance of sorts. There has to be. It's their
industry. As many are aware, some have "discontinued"
certain models of 2stks. in their line. The same thing
happened to the 500 2stks.
But remember, the OEM's do what they do based on real
world situations, wants & needs, just like any other
company. Sales & marketing exec's also have a had in
make-up of things & directions, so again in the mean time
enjoy what you have, & not what you don't.
Dave O. Wink
"Shame on the parties involved (some say)...Give me a break!Wink "

3/4/2009 10:09am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
So much for my family going to Glen Helen and Hangtown this year. Instead, I think we'll just go ride our 2-strokes.

For those counting, that's at least 2 adults and 2 children that won't be to either event, and possibly more as I usually bring other kids or at least talk friends into meeting us there.

At this time, only Yamaha, KTM, and maybe Gas-Gas have any chance of me spending my hard-earned money on a bike for myself. As my son moves from his 65 to an 85, it's less likely that Suzuki or Kawi will be on the list (and Honda isn't even a consideration).

Ozzy- I have ZERO sympathy for the mfg's. If they were not being obstructionist's here, and the thumpers legitamately were better (as I think they would be in the Open Class), there would be no issue.
Void Main
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3/4/2009 10:15am
GuyB wrote:
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother... It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race...
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother...

It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race and find a way to have a bad time. Or maybe they just sit at home and have a worse time...I dunno...

There are plenty of bigger issues (including the economy, etc.) than whether two-strokes are allowed to race against the 250Fs. I'm guessing the majority of you are looking at it from a fan's perspective, purely "It'd be cool to see" rather than whether it makes sense as a business decision for the riders, teams, OEs, sanctioning body, etc.

My personal opinion? I think when the four-strokes were first developed, the 450 size advantage was needed to allow them to compete. When it became apparent that they had an unfair advantage over the 250s, their cc limit should have been adjusted downward.

Allowing the 250 two-strokes in among the 250Fs? It might help a handful of riders, but I'd guess that the 250F guys would end up spending even more money trying to wind their bikes even tighter to match the 250 two-strokes.
I would like to think that at least some of us here are more than just fans and also actually ride/race and would like to have the 2-stroke as an option because of it's affordability and ease of maintenance. Our options on 2-strokes are dwindling and will continue to do so until these sorts of rules are allowed.
-eagle-
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3/4/2009 10:25am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
No sense crying over spilled premix but don't expect me to buy half the bullshit I've read in here so far. Its all politics & greasing palms; nobody can justify the reason for not doing this. The lead law angle was nice too; selling mini bikes to amateurs has so much to do with running the professional national series. please.

That said, i'm stoked they locked down lucas and got a tv package together.
I would just have more respect for them if they gave us a straight up answer instead of all this bullshit rhetoric. Can't make a good omelet without breaking a few eggs.
Ozzy
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3/4/2009 10:29am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
Regardless of your choices, me I still love 2stks.
But again, it's "a path taken"........by them!
Love it or not, time will tell................
But in the meantime,
Ride your
2stks. you have, that they produced.....
Ride your
4stks. you have, that they produced.....
Ride your
Quad's or whatever, that they produced........
So just ride & have your fun, whether riding or racing,
just remember, that they produced 'em all.
Don't paint them like the "cigarette companies!"Dizzy
Dave O. Wink
Shenzi
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3/4/2009 10:33am
GuyB wrote:
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother... It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race...
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother...

It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race and find a way to have a bad time. Or maybe they just sit at home and have a worse time...I dunno...

There are plenty of bigger issues (including the economy, etc.) than whether two-strokes are allowed to race against the 250Fs. I'm guessing the majority of you are looking at it from a fan's perspective, purely "It'd be cool to see" rather than whether it makes sense as a business decision for the riders, teams, OEs, sanctioning body, etc.

My personal opinion? I think when the four-strokes were first developed, the 450 size advantage was needed to allow them to compete. When it became apparent that they had an unfair advantage over the 250s, their cc limit should have been adjusted downward.

Allowing the 250 two-strokes in among the 250Fs? It might help a handful of riders, but I'd guess that the 250F guys would end up spending even more money trying to wind their bikes even tighter to match the 250 two-strokes.
BINGO!

Shenzi
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3/4/2009 10:36am
I hate the OEM's!
Why are they building motorcycles?
Darn it. !
They could spend their money wisely on Saving Darfur or the development of a faster, better, bigger, louder Iphone!
Darn it!
i call for a stop to build motorcycles by the OEM!
Darn it!

3/4/2009 10:53am
Some day I want an iPhone so big and so fast and so loud that I'll need to put it on my desk and tell it what to do with a keyboard and mouse.
BobbyM
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3/4/2009 10:57am Edited Date/Time 3/4/2009 10:59am
Tiki wrote:
Seriously let it go. Get off your couches and walk around once in a while. This wasn't something that happened overnight this has been going on...
Seriously let it go. Get off your couches and walk around once in a while. This wasn't something that happened overnight this has been going on since1996.

If you like two strokes cool. I love 125's but the reality is they are gone. Are we all lamenting twin shocks and radial heads? Embrace the past, talk about the good times and lets move on.

WAYYYYY bigger issues to but your thoughts on at the moment in the sport.
ahhh...the radial head. THOSE FMF HEADS WERE SUHWHEEEEAAAT!!!!

mxpimp
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3/4/2009 11:05am
They should do what’s best sport and not the manufactures. Why would they even need to spend money on the 2 strokes? Just let the privateers run them.
All you can do is support Yamaha and KTM since they are still producing 2 strokes. I will be buying a new 2 stroke next year.
CR250Rider
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3/4/2009 11:05am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
4 stroke domination !!!!!!!!!!!!! DevilDevilDevil
i thought i'd say it before mx70mx got here

GIwasB4
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3/4/2009 11:06am
ahhh...the radial head. THOSE FMF HEADS WERE SUHWHEEEEAAAT!!!!

I'm sure you can weld a porcupine head on a valve cover

WhKnuckle
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3/4/2009 11:16am
Shenzi wrote:
I was surprised about this post by Jody on MXA because I don't think that this was an official communication between a journalist and Ayers, sounded...
I was surprised about this post by Jody on MXA because I don't think that this was an official communication between a journalist and Ayers, sounded more like email exchange between a promoter and MXSports and maybe the info was not ready to be released yet, especially prior to a proper press-release.

I talk to DC at Indy about the 2-strokes and the fact that it would be an amazing addition to the Nationals, help reduce cost of racing for some, help make it easier on younger guys moving to 125cc instead of 250F and all. I mean, all of us moto forum geeks would love to see these back. There were a lot of talks about it in the last few months and I think that there is a very strong will at MXSports to bring the 2-strokes back and introduce some kind of 2-strokes National series, or "2-strokes Youth series" sometime in the future, as soon as possible..

DC explained that the reason they couldn't bring the 2-smokers back this year was because the OEM's have been crippled by this CPSIA thing and fighting it has taken all of their resources and attention. DC and the rest of the AMA Nationals crew understand the situation and felt that this lead issue was more important right now than a rule change in the AMA Nationals.
Now is not the time to be changing the rule book and have the OEMs concentrating on developing or re-developing their 2-strokes bikes. I believe that MXSports tried really really hard to get it passed by the OEMs, but after Feb 10th, everything changed for the OEMs who's financial losses resulting from the Lead Law, will impact racing, teams and the series.
On Saturday, they were working on a PR to update the public on this issue but concentrated on the TV Live package first because it was bigger news, while they were trying to find a solution to the 2-stroke plan.
DC has the gravitas to say what he wants, but that "we can't deal with 2 strokes in the Nationals and this lead issue at the same time" thing is hogwash. The lead issue isn't even HARD to solve - just put plastic covers over the cases - and the two strokes in the Nationals thing is a simple rule change. It's nothing - unless you're one of those manufacturers that doesn't make a two stroke and don't want a privateer two stroke pulling the crap out of your factory 250F - a 250F that needs a new engine every 2 hours of riding time.

DC used to be a great ambassador for the sport - now he's just a mouthpiece for the AMA and the factories - which are two organizations that have amply proven their utter incompetence.
wardy
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3/4/2009 11:18am
WELL i suck anyway for a real "SPECTATOR", havent' been to a national since they did away with 500cc machines (1989 red bud 250 last one) so don't listen to me.

but I have a hell of alot more fun with my family riding/racing every weekend then standing there in a sea of humanitiy to watch a couple motos.

they won't miss me, i don't plan on going to any pro race anytime soon. who cares go ride and watch the primadonna highlights on speed. Once the weather it rideable 40 and above, spectating ins't an option.

aggiemoto99
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3/4/2009 11:19am
GuyB wrote:
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother... It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race...
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother...

It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race and find a way to have a bad time. Or maybe they just sit at home and have a worse time...I dunno...

There are plenty of bigger issues (including the economy, etc.) than whether two-strokes are allowed to race against the 250Fs. I'm guessing the majority of you are looking at it from a fan's perspective, purely "It'd be cool to see" rather than whether it makes sense as a business decision for the riders, teams, OEs, sanctioning body, etc.

My personal opinion? I think when the four-strokes were first developed, the 450 size advantage was needed to allow them to compete. When it became apparent that they had an unfair advantage over the 250s, their cc limit should have been adjusted downward.

Allowing the 250 two-strokes in among the 250Fs? It might help a handful of riders, but I'd guess that the 250F guys would end up spending even more money trying to wind their bikes even tighter to match the 250 two-strokes.
I am a die hard race fan.

Love mx.....love sx, love personally racing myself.

I am a "good rider" of course absolutely nothing on a national scale....but local Aish maybe lorettas B

I raced 4 strokes when I was young and aspiring...were clear advantage over a 125.

But, now that it my dime, I race two strokes. I love them, cheap, fast, reliable, and and "disadvantage" is crap. I go equally fast (or slow) on both, because unless your top 20 national pro (or close to it) there is always room for self improvement.

As you stated, people will spend more to wind out the four stroke? How I may ask.

Are they not already spending everything possible? I mean a full mdk, PC, etc... motor costs BIG bucks....too much realistically.

Sure, maybe they follow formula one more....so different cam technology etc...That's certainly more costly.

BUT, do you think Pro Circuit isn't already spending every possible penny on their motor's? if they could make it faster....they would, period.

There is NO room for major improvement on these mod 250f's. They are already at the limits....so spending more money or not, you would not get anything shy of complete redesign of head (more vertical/straight intake tract) and special exhaust design (shorter...more peaky power)

The privateer NEEDED that rule....in a big way. Thankfully it's allowed amateur racing and as allowed me to still race despite a tight budget along with some other local talent who had hung up the boots because their one and only bike that they mod for the big am nats wont hold up enough to practice weekly.

Yes, the rules were wrong, and should have been limited in displacement, not the other way around (allowing bigger bike in smaller class aka 250) but what is done is done.....let the 250 live!


What really saddens me is public perception. it's to the point consumers are convinced a 2 stroke is not competitive. Well....I routinely put that to rest locally (again..not a god or anything...I know I suck!) and just sunday pulled both holeshots in 450 A class....on a LONG, SANDY, start...I hit 5th gear...

Sure a 125 is not as fast as a 250f....BUT, it's cheaper, more fun IMHO, and safer for the riders just moving up. AND, in the right hands...a fast rider can go fast on one.

nationals are dying...and they are what I consider true motocross. I loved the nats.

give the TV onlookers, and the followers something to bench race about...give them a topic that's dripping in controversy...give them a side story....give them the two stroke on a fair playing field (250 isn't fair...it's generous)

Boxing hypes up the fight, Cage fighting has side stories....football always had some stupid receiver comment...yadda yadda yadda.

The SPORT NEEDS added attention, and this could help give it, but of course...it isn't meant to be.

Not attacking you guyB....just quoted you for the wind out portion!
calimxer91
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3/4/2009 11:25am
I wanna see stuff like this tried before were 24/7 deisels.
croom mx
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3/4/2009 11:26am
Why would anyone be afraid of a privateer on 2 stroke 250? just think a privateer pulling the holeshot on 2 stroke 250 national. That wouldn't look very good for the factories now would it.
Slow ~ Pro
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3/4/2009 11:37am
There is still the "2-STROKE INVITATIONAL" at Glen Helen.

If you really, want to be heard show up and support it. Let them see how much 2-strokes mean.

When the 2-stroke race is over, go home !
BobbyM
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3/4/2009 11:41am
wardy wrote:
anybody thinking for a minute that OEM's will allow the two stroke back in, well i have a bridge to sell you. we NEVER thought for...
anybody thinking for a minute that OEM's will allow the two stroke back in, well i have a bridge to sell you.


we NEVER thought for A SECOND when pushing these rules for AMATUERS that it would work for OEM's. they make more money and have committed to the 4 stroke pile of crap because of it. So we can bitch and yell all we want, it's not a demoracy. The only way they would get the picture is if we ALL STAY HOME from ONE NATIONAL EVENT, and say bring back the two stroke or we stay home from two next year.

there is no way that will happen either.

so be thankful you have a choice to race a two stroke at your local race, you can thank your amatuer division of AMA for that.

now lets get the lead ban and other laws stopped which are coming down the pike with this administration.

As much as I think a Service Honda A/F is very "raceable" with a 450, don't think for one second they would allow that????? no chance in hell.

remember the amatuer side fought for 7 years to bring back the level playing field (stfu mx7mxwhat ever i don't want to hear it), and we brought the level playing field back fighting the "in crowd" OE people the whole way.

never fk with a big companies market plan it's not good for business......

that is all.............. LOL





now lets get the lead ban and other laws stopped which are coming down the pike with this administration.

i thought w signed this....
TerryB
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3/4/2009 11:44am
GuyB wrote:
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother... It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race...
Any excitement for the Nationals is gone because there are no two-strokes? Oh brother...

It amazes me that some people can go to a motocross race and find a way to have a bad time. Or maybe they just sit at home and have a worse time...I dunno...

There are plenty of bigger issues (including the economy, etc.) than whether two-strokes are allowed to race against the 250Fs. I'm guessing the majority of you are looking at it from a fan's perspective, purely "It'd be cool to see" rather than whether it makes sense as a business decision for the riders, teams, OEs, sanctioning body, etc.

My personal opinion? I think when the four-strokes were first developed, the 450 size advantage was needed to allow them to compete. When it became apparent that they had an unfair advantage over the 250s, their cc limit should have been adjusted downward.

Allowing the 250 two-strokes in among the 250Fs? It might help a handful of riders, but I'd guess that the 250F guys would end up spending even more money trying to wind their bikes even tighter to match the 250 two-strokes.
Hey, that's your opinion GuyB. For many of us (the people who support the sport with our hard earned money) the sport has become less exciting since the four-strokes entered the scene. It has also become more expensive to participate in, because of the four-strokes. The noise issue is also costing us riding areas and tracks, because of the four-strokes.

Some of you guys need to quit being apologists for the OEM's

Ozzy, who did you work for? I can see where your allegiances may be.

I'll keep my YZ125. It's capable of going faster than I am, costs less to maintain than the thumpers, sounds sweet and smells good too! I recently bought an old '96 RM125 to restore. I'll bet it's capabilities exceed my own too, and I will enjoy smoking guys on 450's with it. When I buy a new bike, KTM will probably get my money. When two-strokes are no longer an option, I'll go straight to the electric bike.

It's people like us, that keep this sport alive. The manufacturers are only hurting themselves.



BobbyM
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3/4/2009 11:45am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:46pm
So much for my family going to Glen Helen and Hangtown this year. Instead, I think we'll just go ride our 2-strokes. For those counting, that's...
So much for my family going to Glen Helen and Hangtown this year. Instead, I think we'll just go ride our 2-strokes.

For those counting, that's at least 2 adults and 2 children that won't be to either event, and possibly more as I usually bring other kids or at least talk friends into meeting us there.

At this time, only Yamaha, KTM, and maybe Gas-Gas have any chance of me spending my hard-earned money on a bike for myself. As my son moves from his 65 to an 85, it's less likely that Suzuki or Kawi will be on the list (and Honda isn't even a consideration).

Ozzy- I have ZERO sympathy for the mfg's. If they were not being obstructionist's here, and the thumpers legitamately were better (as I think they would be in the Open Class), there would be no issue.
yer gonna miss some damn good racing....i'll let you know how they go. Smile

sac up for godsakes...they weren't there last year or the year before that...or the year before that or...
BobbyM
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3/4/2009 11:47am
Shenzi wrote:
I hate the OEM's! Why are they building motorcycles? Darn it. ! They could spend their money wisely on Saving Darfur or the development of a...
I hate the OEM's!
Why are they building motorcycles?
Darn it. !
They could spend their money wisely on Saving Darfur or the development of a faster, better, bigger, louder Iphone!
Darn it!
i call for a stop to build motorcycles by the OEM!
Darn it!

lmao...could be worse. we could have the CEM'S....and they're coming fast enough as it is.




TerryB
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3/4/2009 11:56am
OK, I'll amend what I said:

The OEM's aren't really hurting themselves in the long-run. They know this sport is doomed, with all the shit coming down over the last few years, and are just trying to make as much money as they can, before the lights go out for good, or they are pushed out of the market by some upstart electric bike companies.

More power to 'em, I guess.
BobbyM
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3/4/2009 12:12pm
TerryB wrote:
OK, I'll amend what I said: The OEM's aren't really hurting themselves in the long-run. They know this sport is doomed, with all the shit coming...
OK, I'll amend what I said:

The OEM's aren't really hurting themselves in the long-run. They know this sport is doomed, with all the shit coming down over the last few years, and are just trying to make as much money as they can, before the lights go out for good, or they are pushed out of the market by some upstart electric bike companies.

More power to 'em, I guess.
sounds like washington republicans...

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