Alta receives FIM Homologation for North America 250 class

Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 1:02pm
JM485 wrote:
I think the only way they could realistically limit the power is by limiting the kW hrs of the battery. By limiting the capacity, it limits...
I think the only way they could realistically limit the power is by limiting the kW hrs of the battery. By limiting the capacity, it limits the amount of power that can be drawn in a given time. Here's a quick example:

Let's say you have a 10 kW hr battery. Depending on you application, you could draw 10kW for an hour until the battery is dead, or you could draw 20kW for half an hour and get higher performance. By doing it this way, power can be limited since the battery has to last 15 min at full power, which limits how much they can draw during the race. Yes, electric motors can be rated by HP, but that is a pretty bad way to go about it for this type of application.

I'm far from an expert on this but from my engineering background I know a little, so that is my theory about how to go about it. Awesome to see them racing, I'm glad they are making progress and really making a push in other types of racing while they wait on getting into the big show.
At this point it is unreasonable to ask Alta or anyone else to redesign their battery. That is where all the new tech and development money is invested. Changing it now is like asking All the manufacturer's to run a 325cc 4t. no one has one and they would require incredible investment to do so.

Alta's 5.8 KWH battery pack
The Redshift owes its speed and endurance to the custom battery pack which powers it all. The Alta Pack crams 5.8 kWh into 30.8 kilos with a maximum of 350V: mile for mile, there is no smaller, more energy dense battery pack in transportation. Our battery team gave themselves three years to develop and commercialize wholly new technologies to achieve the performance and safety we demanded of an off-road race bike. The Alta Pack is waterproof - rated up to IP67. It is durable enough to handle impacts and vibrations up to 20G, and it is digitally self-monitoring. Our stacked, honeycomb architecture allows for extreme energy density at 185 watt hours per kilogram. This paired with a unique thermal wicking system to shed heat faster than any other lithium-ion transportation battery in production, gives the Redshift the edge you want on the track.

Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 1:04pm
GuyB wrote:
I didn't read anything in there that would equate to AMA homologation.
Correct, they mention that they are only maybe part of the way to AMA acceptance. It is a good step forward and encouraging none the less.
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 1:07pm
NorCal 50+ wrote:
These things need their own class, IMO. It's a totally different technology.
So are 2 and 4 strokes. They all have 2 wheels though. What is your concern?
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 1:55pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 2:02pm
FIM Motocross Technical Rules see 1.50.04

http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/sport/motocross-mxgpmx2/

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/download/62802/no_cache/1/

here's a glimpse:

50.04.2 Power bus maximum voltage
The maximum allowed voltage in the main power bus is 400VDC or 285VAC. A
secondary power bus may be used to supply energy to the critical systems at a
maximum voltage of 20VDC or 14VAC.
50.04.3 High voltage symbols
Symbols warning of 'HIGH VOLTAGE' must be displayed on or near the electrical
equipment protective covers; all symbols must comprise a black flash of lightning
inside a yellow triangle with a black border. The sides of the triangle must measure at
least 8 cm, but may be larger if practical.
50.04.4 Insulation
Every part of the electrical equipment must be electrically insulated relative to all live
components and system ground. Maximum default current is 20mA.

The Shop

kkawboy14
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9/9/2017 2:08pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 2:08pm
The lawyers and college boys will need some time and $3,000,000 to come up with the answer to this......OR they will throw darts at a dart board that says "yes" "no" on it, over a few rounds of beers
Mr. Ted
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9/9/2017 2:09pm
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/09/213910/s1200_torque.jpg[/img] The blue line of interrupted torque or power delivery with a gearbox is exactly why the Alta works well. No Chassis interruption of traction between...


The blue line of interrupted torque or power delivery with a gearbox is exactly why the Alta works well. No Chassis interruption of traction between gear changes, let alone the power drop.

If I had an Alta the 1st thing I'd do is drop a bunch of teeth on the rear sprocket, with that torque it should pull it like a boss.
What are the torque specs for the sprocket bolts?
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 2:27pm
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/09/09/213910/s1200_torque.jpg[/img] The blue line of interrupted torque or power delivery with a gearbox is exactly why the Alta works well. No Chassis interruption of traction between...


The blue line of interrupted torque or power delivery with a gearbox is exactly why the Alta works well. No Chassis interruption of traction between gear changes, let alone the power drop.

If I had an Alta the 1st thing I'd do is drop a bunch of teeth on the rear sprocket, with that torque it should pull it like a boss.
Mr. Ted wrote:
What are the torque specs for the sprocket bolts?
Thanks for the reminder Ted, I left the door wide open for that.Sideways
Plugga
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9/9/2017 2:31pm
MxKing809 wrote:
It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open...
It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.
x2

Lets not repeat the 4 stroke handicap racing saga again.
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 3:19pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 3:27pm
Motodave15 wrote:
This is exciting... I hope to see this electric bike win. As for the rules, they have to allow it to race to see where it...
This is exciting... I hope to see this electric bike win. As for the rules, they have to allow it to race to see where it matches up... And you will only be able to get the needed data from pro level racing.
skiz wrote:
Racing Orgs have always matched up/categorized bikes according to CCs. But CCs isn't the samething as power output. Compare this to the light bulb. For decades...
Racing Orgs have always matched up/categorized bikes according to CCs. But CCs isn't the samething as power output.

Compare this to the light bulb. For decades we were told that bulbs were 60watt bulbs. But then CFLs and LEDs came along and the packages said, "equivalent to 60watt". Those of us that looked further into it found that light output is measured at 800 Lumens for the classic incandescent light bulb we used all of those decades. So Lumens was what we should have been aware of this entire time.

If we stop focusing on motorcycle CCs, what should we be looking at.?
Lap times

People assume that we need to know exactly how to make a watch, when all we need to know is what time it is.
kevin204
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9/9/2017 3:23pm
I can't find any press release, but it is stated in this article: "The team at Alta Motors received homologation for FIM North America competition in...
I can't find any press release, but it is stated in this article:

"The team at Alta Motors received homologation for FIM North America competition in the 250 class. This unlocks Canada and propels them halfway closer to AMA Supercross, where they really want to race. They have big plans this offseason. Alta Motors is returning to Red Bull Straight Rhythm and including additional European Supercross events. "

https://thumpertalk.com/articles/electric-motorcycles-are-coming-r722/

scott_nz wrote:
i thought the Canadian national moto series ran outside the CMA which is the FIM affiliate there?

does this mean it is ok for GP's?
For 2018 there is a new series that will likely replace the old CMRC series.. the new series is sanctioned by the CMA/FIM.
F.B
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9/9/2017 4:12pm
You were supposed to post this between Non-Moto and Off-Road Adventures! What were you thinking...
early
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9/9/2017 4:29pm
I would like to see a 3 year provisional rule starting in 2019 or 2020 that allows any pure elecric motorcycle to compete in the 250 class without homologation. It should be written that competing in the 250 class is not guaranteed after that time but there will be at least 1 class available for competition maybe with homologation or not. This gives everyone a year or 2 +3 for development to get on the same page if they choose.
m.hardesty16
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9/9/2017 4:40pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 4:43pm
God I hate these bikes so much. I like my good ol combustion bike that actually looks like a bike. Its not just the electric factor but they look ugly as hell. Also everyone is going crazy about torque like last I checked you can make a crazy amount of torque on a normal bike but its just a factor of how much do you really need, you can only go so fast on the track especially in supercross.
Jaze
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9/9/2017 4:43pm
This is great news, maybe our sport is starting to grow again, where it was some years ago.
They only need to cut their bike prices and it´s gonna be success indeed.
skiz
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9/9/2017 4:46pm
What do these bikes sound like. I'm imagining a sound similar to a drone helicopter. If 20 to 40 of them are zipping around a track will it sound like a hive of angry bees.?
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 4:54pm
F.B wrote:
You were supposed to post this between Non-Moto and Off-Road Adventures! What were you thinking... [img]https://media.giphy.com/media/1QkBt1fh4yRsk/giphy.gif[/img]
You were supposed to post this between Non-Moto and Off-Road Adventures! What were you thinking...
colintrax
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9/9/2017 4:57pm
God I hate these bikes so much. I like my good ol combustion bike that actually looks like a bike. Its not just the electric factor...
God I hate these bikes so much. I like my good ol combustion bike that actually looks like a bike. Its not just the electric factor but they look ugly as hell. Also everyone is going crazy about torque like last I checked you can make a crazy amount of torque on a normal bike but its just a factor of how much do you really need, you can only go so fast on the track especially in supercross.
Ride one before you bitch about them
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 4:57pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 9:19pm
skiz wrote:
What do these bikes sound like. I'm imagining a sound similar to a drone helicopter. If 20 to 40 of them are zipping around a track...
What do these bikes sound like. I'm imagining a sound similar to a drone helicopter. If 20 to 40 of them are zipping around a track will it sound like a hive of angry bees.?
From the article, it's worth a read:

"Have you ever wondered what Supercross riders say to each other after a dirty block pass? With Electric bikes there is a good chance you will hear the conversation. Will the electric generation of racers use trash talk? No more need for pit boards, just yell! The same joy I receive from the smell of 2 Stroke oil or hearing a bike roar will be what the electric generation receives from a buzzing sound similar to an RC car along with the sound of tires spinning. Yes, I said the sound of the tires on the dirt. About 5 minutes into my Redshift ride I stopped and checked to see if I had a flat. Chad at Alta Motors erupted into laughter as almost everyone who rides the bike assumes the same. Dirt Bike tires make a lot of noise, but the motorcycle usually drowns out the sound. Hearing your tires might lead to advancements in tire performance, who knows? "

There is also a link to a full test by Cycle World that is very informative.
Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 5:04pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 5:05pm
early wrote:
I would like to see a 3 year provisional rule starting in 2019 or 2020 that allows any pure elecric motorcycle to compete in the 250...
I would like to see a 3 year provisional rule starting in 2019 or 2020 that allows any pure elecric motorcycle to compete in the 250 class without homologation. It should be written that competing in the 250 class is not guaranteed after that time but there will be at least 1 class available for competition maybe with homologation or not. This gives everyone a year or 2 +3 for development to get on the same page if they choose.
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again like that?

I have no problem with putting Alta's in the 450's from the get go. Both classes run the same lap times anyway. When they bust a holey week after week there will be less crying.
radonc73
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9/9/2017 5:11pm
Part of the 4 stroke being better was that the factories wanted to sell more bikes in the 6-8G range.
early
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9/9/2017 5:13pm
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again...
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again like that?

I have no problem with putting Alta's in the 450's from the get go. Both classes run the same lap times anyway. When they bust a holey week after week there will be less crying.
If it was a go in 2019 i dont see that as much of a penalty. Right now they dont have a rider for 2018 SX although Durham is supposed to be riding european sx rounds for them. Seems to me if they knew they were guaranteed to get in for the 2019 season they would probably need the time to get a team ready.
cali11
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9/9/2017 5:14pm
aeffertz wrote:
The current Alta can't even come close to 450 numbers. Why do some of you think they should put it up against them? Cool news though...
The current Alta can't even come close to 450 numbers. Why do some of you think they should put it up against them?

Cool news though. Will be interesting to see how they stack up against the 250s in the pro ranks.
Umm do you even have any idea what your talking about? You do realize the Alta puts out like 120 ft lbs of torque, right? What's a 450 making? I have a Honda VTX1800 Cruiser that's not even making that much torque!
SCR
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9/9/2017 5:19pm
skiz wrote:
What do these bikes sound like. I'm imagining a sound similar to a drone helicopter. If 20 to 40 of them are zipping around a track...
What do these bikes sound like. I'm imagining a sound similar to a drone helicopter. If 20 to 40 of them are zipping around a track will it sound like a hive of angry bees.?
They sound like an electric chainsaw.
Katoomey
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9/9/2017 5:25pm
MxKing809 wrote:
It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open...
It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.
you are absolutely right. this is evident at every level and type of professional motorsports from the very beginning. its the logical progression for organization, which has to balance costs and competitveness while at the same time, allowing the manufacturers room for innovation and development

It's a tough road to hoe for promoters and organizers who's main goal, at the highest levels, is keeping the manufacturers AND the fans/participants happy at the same time. The problem with manufacturers is they rarely want the same thing as each other, and almost never want what the spectators want. You can't make everyone happy, and so the goal just becomes not to piss everyone off. A no-win proposition if you will.

In the end, when it is all said and done....follow the money...and you'll see the light. It's "professional" title is not status symbol. This is a occupation for every single person involved. Money is the prime motivating factor for any and all of it.

Johnny Depp
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9/9/2017 5:31pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 5:36pm
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again...
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again like that?

I have no problem with putting Alta's in the 450's from the get go. Both classes run the same lap times anyway. When they bust a holey week after week there will be less crying.
early wrote:
If it was a go in 2019 i dont see that as much of a penalty. Right now they dont have a rider for 2018 SX...
If it was a go in 2019 i dont see that as much of a penalty. Right now they dont have a rider for 2018 SX although Durham is supposed to be riding european sx rounds for them. Seems to me if they knew they were guaranteed to get in for the 2019 season they would probably need the time to get a team ready.
Alta doesn't plan on running a team of their own. Apparently several B/C level teams showed interest in them after the Straight Rhythm and are just awaiting the AMA to make a move on making them legal. Now is the time if pre season testing is to be done to be fair.

Here is the AMA's position:



"Fled" with the money Circus killers and the big money back room cigar smokers need to realize that it's all about selling seats and TV ads. Having E-bikes in the show would do that in droves based on this forum's interest alone.
Katoomey
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9/9/2017 6:01pm
early wrote:
I would like to see a 3 year provisional rule starting in 2019 or 2020 that allows any pure elecric motorcycle to compete in the 250...
I would like to see a 3 year provisional rule starting in 2019 or 2020 that allows any pure elecric motorcycle to compete in the 250 class without homologation. It should be written that competing in the 250 class is not guaranteed after that time but there will be at least 1 class available for competition maybe with homologation or not. This gives everyone a year or 2 +3 for development to get on the same page if they choose.
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again...
I see no reason to penalize Alta and make them wait for everyone to catch up. That's un-American. How are we gonna make MX great again like that?

I have no problem with putting Alta's in the 450's from the get go. Both classes run the same lap times anyway. When they bust a holey week after week there will be less crying.
You have somewhat of a polyannaish world veiw, where morality and ethics are concerns of the average business man. As if the finacnial entities involved with motorsports prime objective was to honor the "spirit" of competition.

If Alta wants some pull, then they need to pay their dues. How much have they contributed to American motocross. How much money do they bring to MX Sports or Feld. How many fans will walk if the walk? Will the sport fail without them? the answer to all those questions is a big fat zero.
.
you say make MX great again with the gusto of a supreme narcissist. Like your idea of "great" MX is anything like mine. I'm not interested in enginecycles, I'm interested in motorcycles. More importantly, I already think MX is great.

Besides, technological innovations are just as good at killing traditions as they are creating them, right? Not everyone is interested in innovation either, or the increasing costs. I could care less if dirtbikes completely stopped evolving. They've been pretty much totally awesome for the past decade, with no real innovations to speak of.
Now I understand that innovations drive new sales, and new sales greatly improve the health and growth for a manufacturer, I just don't think it's necessary. You can go to Italy and by a pair of shoes that was designed 200 years ago. Does that make them outdated, or are they still the sexiest shoes you ever laid eyes on? Is the newest bike you ride, always, without question, the funnest bike you ride? do you know what the most raced car in this country is? its the origianl Mazda Miata. and if I have to explain to you, why that is, then you have no business discussing organized motorsports.
ob
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9/9/2017 7:48pm
Why didn't they build these bikes so that the battery pack was easily swapable in between motos?
early
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9/9/2017 7:53pm
Katoomey wrote:
You have somewhat of a polyannaish world veiw, where morality and ethics are concerns of the average business man. As if the finacnial entities involved with...
You have somewhat of a polyannaish world veiw, where morality and ethics are concerns of the average business man. As if the finacnial entities involved with motorsports prime objective was to honor the "spirit" of competition.

If Alta wants some pull, then they need to pay their dues. How much have they contributed to American motocross. How much money do they bring to MX Sports or Feld. How many fans will walk if the walk? Will the sport fail without them? the answer to all those questions is a big fat zero.
.
you say make MX great again with the gusto of a supreme narcissist. Like your idea of "great" MX is anything like mine. I'm not interested in enginecycles, I'm interested in motorcycles. More importantly, I already think MX is great.

Besides, technological innovations are just as good at killing traditions as they are creating them, right? Not everyone is interested in innovation either, or the increasing costs. I could care less if dirtbikes completely stopped evolving. They've been pretty much totally awesome for the past decade, with no real innovations to speak of.
Now I understand that innovations drive new sales, and new sales greatly improve the health and growth for a manufacturer, I just don't think it's necessary. You can go to Italy and by a pair of shoes that was designed 200 years ago. Does that make them outdated, or are they still the sexiest shoes you ever laid eyes on? Is the newest bike you ride, always, without question, the funnest bike you ride? do you know what the most raced car in this country is? its the origianl Mazda Miata. and if I have to explain to you, why that is, then you have no business discussing organized motorsports.
I'm not interested in enginecycles, I'm interested in motorcycles. More importantly, I already think MX is great.

Kind of ironic statement here.
Ozzy
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9/9/2017 8:07pm Edited Date/Time 9/9/2017 8:12pm
They shouldn't be allowed to race against fuel burning bikes, unless it's a race like Straight Rhythm where the bikes are separated.
We've all witnessed the cluster fu*k when the powers that be allowed 2&4 stks to race together.
It was unsafe & dangerous, & thank god they saw the light.
Here we go again it seems.
Alta's & the like need a class to themselves.
Time will prove I'm correct.
It's as clear as the nose on 1's face.
The electric power delivery & torque is way to different to be mixed in with fuel bikes.
Again, I'll just sit back & watch what happens.

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