Alta receives FIM Homologation for North America 250 class

Rockinar
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Rockinar 9/10/2017 2:53pm
9/10/2017 2:53pm
Everyone arguing and debating, and they are not even on the track yet. LOL.......
dirtdog36
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dirtdog36 9/10/2017 6:50pm
9/10/2017 6:50pm
The funny thing is within a matter of weeks this board has gone from "atlas is a joke. These bikes are too weak. Will never make it. Not giving up my 450 for a weak, heavy bike"
To "they can be too fast. You can cheat too easily and be faster than an ice bike"

Interesting

I think innovation needs to be fostered. 4 t was NOT innovation it was political. This is different. True innovation

I think E is the future. I don't know what it looks like exactly but bike sales would drastically increase if you could ride them on any 5 acre backyard track

I want to hear how it did at TW Slam...
JC21
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JC21 9/10/2017 7:28pm
9/10/2017 7:28pm
You gotta love this - the manufacturers that were happy to kill the dinosaur 2 bangers now find themselves looking to the sky and seeing a giant, silent asteroid bearing down on them.

This has to happen. Look at what a joke formula E was perceived to be, now everyone (even Mercedes) wants a piece. Do it early and be on the front foot for once.

The Shop

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Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/11/2017 11:08am
9/11/2017 11:08am Edited Date/Time 9/11/2017 4:48pm
You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

We live in a world of Tesla's, Segway's and kid's gliding around the malls on hoverboards.
There are tons of brands of MX clone electric bikes sold as toys at retailer's of all kinds.

$463 at Walmart here, you can get a Razor for $229. You think there's a chance prices could come down on electric MX bikes?

For a sport that is looking for where the next generation of rider's is coming from, it seems obvious to me.

deadlo
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deadlo 9/11/2017 3:11pm
9/11/2017 3:11pm
Never knew ktm made an electric bike. 2 strokes, and 4 strokes will never die, but I'm happy to see this happen. I know of quite a few tracks and trails that went away due to noise complaints. I hate the e bike sound, but it's pretty cool otherwise. We'd all be glued to the tv seeing someone like Durham line up on one for sx or mx. This whole thread is exactly what I remember when 4 strokes started getting big and people were hating.


Jon_B
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Jon_B 9/13/2017 10:59am
9/13/2017 10:59am
Hi VMX,

For sure the packs are swappable, at Slam Fest on Saturday we had our changes down around the 10 minute~ mark. You can see a video recap of the race here :

https://vimeo.com/233684705

JB

PS. For transparency, I represent our marketing team here at Alta.
RangerLee
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RangerLee 9/13/2017 12:05pm
9/13/2017 12:05pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
Who's gonna build their pipes?
63mark wrote:
LaughingLaughingLaughing
This is actually a fair comment on a specific end. There are many aftermarket manufacturers out there that will lobby against Ebikes in pro racing. Every Ebike out there is another person that does not need to buy their after market product. Suspension will still have a place, seats, handlebars, grips and personal gear. However there are many things inside the bike and outside that will no longer be needed. Pro circuit alone would feel a major hit to the wallet once Ebikes start making a dent in market share.

They will put their money in lobbying against them to the AMA.
motomike137
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motomike137 9/13/2017 12:14pm
9/13/2017 12:14pm
RangerLee wrote:
This is actually a fair comment on a specific end. There are many aftermarket manufacturers out there that will lobby against Ebikes in pro racing. Every...
This is actually a fair comment on a specific end. There are many aftermarket manufacturers out there that will lobby against Ebikes in pro racing. Every Ebike out there is another person that does not need to buy their after market product. Suspension will still have a place, seats, handlebars, grips and personal gear. However there are many things inside the bike and outside that will no longer be needed. Pro circuit alone would feel a major hit to the wallet once Ebikes start making a dent in market share.

They will put their money in lobbying against them to the AMA.
Or they could embrace it like Mitch did with the 4 strokes. If I remember right he hired a TRD engineer to take him to the leading edge of 4 stroke tech. Even though electric motors have a lot fewer moving parts there could be opportunity for hot rodding them also and of course programming power delivery as well.
endurox
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endurox 9/27/2017 5:44pm
9/27/2017 5:44pm
714 watts equals 1 hp. Watts=voltage x amps
motoarmageddon 9/27/2017 8:13pm
9/27/2017 8:13pm
They shouldnt be racing electric against a gas engine, period. They can have their own class
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/27/2017 8:20pm
9/27/2017 8:20pm
motoarmageddon wrote:
They shouldnt be racing electric against a gas engine, period. They can have their own class
Why the period? What is your fear? This sport is already spread too thin with too many classes.
Bosco
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Bosco 9/28/2017 2:18am
9/28/2017 2:18am
Johnny Depp wrote:
[img]https://motocrossactionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/3015/04/hores45015.jpg[/img]
I logged in just to comment on how awful this table is. No units displayed, different units in the same table, titles on the bottom row, different font sizes in the body. Not to mention the fact that surely this information is WAAAAAYY more clear on a graph? If you turned this in as a first year engineering student you'd get ripped apart.

So bad.
Thisusernameisavailable 9/28/2017 3:50am
9/28/2017 3:50am
I think we NEED Alta and their innovations. The sport of MX NEEDS it, we need to make it 'fit' and must embrace it before Alta and their fans go off and create their own sport- "electrocross" or whatever they might call it. Otherwise Motocross will die when all us old fuckers die, bikes will stop selling so the manufacturers will pull out.

Conversation in 2045-

"I went to motocross last sunday, there was a good entry- fifteen or so of us there. Struggling with my bike though, my 2025 Honda CRF is on it's last legs and getting parts for it is nearly impossible now. Such a shame motocross bikes aren't manufactured anymore, id buy a brand new one today if I could."

(His mate) "Oh I was in the area too- about three miles down the road in fact at the Electrocross. Awesome day, 200+ entries. It seems every kid in the neighbourhood has a bike these days.
JustMX
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JustMX 9/28/2017 5:36am
9/28/2017 5:36am Edited Date/Time 9/28/2017 6:17am
gt80rider wrote:
This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are...
This is cool to see they can officially race... However.... How in the world is that even possible? Who is gonna tech the motors? How are they gonna tech the motors? The cells? Is there a max cell count? Max kV? Power output changes with gearing, so is it that locked?

So many questions...
MxKing809 wrote:
It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open...
It won't matter until they win, then the rule book will be written to hold them back. And I think that's how it should be. Open development until it hits that tipping point of fairness, then rein it back in.
Worked great with 4 strokes.

JustMX
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JustMX 9/28/2017 6:27am
9/28/2017 6:27am
Radical wrote:
Look! Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves. When the top speeds start reaching a threshold...
Look!

Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves.
When the top speeds start reaching a threshold, Indy lowers the maximum displacement. I believe Nascar does as well.
It allows the manufacturers to continue to innovate and compete on a level playing field while managing the risk to the athletes.

Let's face the truth. A crash at 50 mph is going to do more damage than a crash at 38 mph (for example).

In MX we've done the exact freaking opposite! As technology, HP, and top speeds increased on 125 and 250 2 strokes, we brought in 4 strokes and freaking increased the max displacement and maximum speed. Why? Where does it stop? When SX bikes go 0-100 in 4 seconds?

Now, electric bikes are coming in and some people are saying to let them go as fast as they want. Don't limit them.

I'm saying Hell No! Not even faster!

It's time for us to manage the overall speed of MX for the exact same reasons Indy and Nascar do it.

The 125 and 250 (and 80cc) 2 strokes should be the standard at this point in time to adjust ANY bike that is going to be approved to race, regardless of the engine, or motor type. I don't care if you race a bike running on nuclear power or fuel cells, they each need to have maximum specs, and be managed by the controlling bodies.

If at some point 2 stroke technology advances, 125 and 250 may need to be lowered as well (but not at this point).

I've proposed how to manage the speed, lower maximum displacement for 4T's and bring back 2T's into competition a few times already in a manner that is great for manufacturers, after market companies, and riders. I won't go into the details again unless asked, but it can and should be done, and phased in over a few years.

As for the electric bikes today, we cannot increase speeds beyond where they are now. There must be maximum specs that reasonably keep them at or below the current speed of the 250 and 450 classes.
We cannot allow what happened when 4 strokes entered MX and SX again. Speeds must not increase or more riders will have more serious injuries.

Again, it's not about whether a rider can handle a more powerful bike. It's that when crashes occur, it's simple physics that the faster the speed, the more intense the injury. We've reached a threshold that we have no business crossing.

That's my $.02, though it's probably worth more like a buck.

Radical




In my opinion, the most important point in this entire debate. Thanks for stating it so well.

Now, a general question for anybody that might be knowledgeable.

I see in the battery description from Alta that the battery can withstand a 20g hit.

Are there any conditions in mx that could cause an incident that would possibly exceed 20g?

Something like a higher speed crash into a fixed object like a tree, or a mid speed crash directly into a concrete wall.
Chris_Cooksey 9/28/2017 8:25am
9/28/2017 8:25am
GuyB wrote:
I didn't read anything in there that would equate to AMA homologation.
The AMA is a no go for 2018, but they are hopeful this gets them closer to specific rules the AMA will accept.
Chris_Cooksey 9/28/2017 8:28am
9/28/2017 8:28am
Johnny Depp wrote:
You can't put the genie back in the bottle. We live in a world of Tesla's, Segway's and kid's gliding around the malls on hoverboards. There...
You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

We live in a world of Tesla's, Segway's and kid's gliding around the malls on hoverboards.
There are tons of brands of MX clone electric bikes sold as toys at retailer's of all kinds.

$463 at Walmart here, you can get a Razor for $229. You think there's a chance prices could come down on electric MX bikes?

For a sport that is looking for where the next generation of rider's is coming from, it seems obvious to me.

You nailed it! Fear not old timers ICE bikes are not going anywhere anytime soon. Electric will just open up additional riding areas and bring the "next generation".

Pit Row

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Chris_Cooksey 9/28/2017 8:32am
9/28/2017 8:32am
Radical wrote:
Look! Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves. When the top speeds start reaching a threshold...
Look!

Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves.
When the top speeds start reaching a threshold, Indy lowers the maximum displacement. I believe Nascar does as well.
It allows the manufacturers to continue to innovate and compete on a level playing field while managing the risk to the athletes.

Let's face the truth. A crash at 50 mph is going to do more damage than a crash at 38 mph (for example).

In MX we've done the exact freaking opposite! As technology, HP, and top speeds increased on 125 and 250 2 strokes, we brought in 4 strokes and freaking increased the max displacement and maximum speed. Why? Where does it stop? When SX bikes go 0-100 in 4 seconds?

Now, electric bikes are coming in and some people are saying to let them go as fast as they want. Don't limit them.

I'm saying Hell No! Not even faster!

It's time for us to manage the overall speed of MX for the exact same reasons Indy and Nascar do it.

The 125 and 250 (and 80cc) 2 strokes should be the standard at this point in time to adjust ANY bike that is going to be approved to race, regardless of the engine, or motor type. I don't care if you race a bike running on nuclear power or fuel cells, they each need to have maximum specs, and be managed by the controlling bodies.

If at some point 2 stroke technology advances, 125 and 250 may need to be lowered as well (but not at this point).

I've proposed how to manage the speed, lower maximum displacement for 4T's and bring back 2T's into competition a few times already in a manner that is great for manufacturers, after market companies, and riders. I won't go into the details again unless asked, but it can and should be done, and phased in over a few years.

As for the electric bikes today, we cannot increase speeds beyond where they are now. There must be maximum specs that reasonably keep them at or below the current speed of the 250 and 450 classes.
We cannot allow what happened when 4 strokes entered MX and SX again. Speeds must not increase or more riders will have more serious injuries.

Again, it's not about whether a rider can handle a more powerful bike. It's that when crashes occur, it's simple physics that the faster the speed, the more intense the injury. We've reached a threshold that we have no business crossing.

That's my $.02, though it's probably worth more like a buck.

Radical




Well said! In addition to safety, speed limitations usually result in more reliable motors which costs less.
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/28/2017 8:37am
9/28/2017 8:37am
Radical wrote:
Look! Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves. When the top speeds start reaching a threshold...
Look!

Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves.
When the top speeds start reaching a threshold, Indy lowers the maximum displacement. I believe Nascar does as well.
It allows the manufacturers to continue to innovate and compete on a level playing field while managing the risk to the athletes.

Let's face the truth. A crash at 50 mph is going to do more damage than a crash at 38 mph (for example).

In MX we've done the exact freaking opposite! As technology, HP, and top speeds increased on 125 and 250 2 strokes, we brought in 4 strokes and freaking increased the max displacement and maximum speed. Why? Where does it stop? When SX bikes go 0-100 in 4 seconds?

Now, electric bikes are coming in and some people are saying to let them go as fast as they want. Don't limit them.

I'm saying Hell No! Not even faster!

It's time for us to manage the overall speed of MX for the exact same reasons Indy and Nascar do it.

The 125 and 250 (and 80cc) 2 strokes should be the standard at this point in time to adjust ANY bike that is going to be approved to race, regardless of the engine, or motor type. I don't care if you race a bike running on nuclear power or fuel cells, they each need to have maximum specs, and be managed by the controlling bodies.

If at some point 2 stroke technology advances, 125 and 250 may need to be lowered as well (but not at this point).

I've proposed how to manage the speed, lower maximum displacement for 4T's and bring back 2T's into competition a few times already in a manner that is great for manufacturers, after market companies, and riders. I won't go into the details again unless asked, but it can and should be done, and phased in over a few years.

As for the electric bikes today, we cannot increase speeds beyond where they are now. There must be maximum specs that reasonably keep them at or below the current speed of the 250 and 450 classes.
We cannot allow what happened when 4 strokes entered MX and SX again. Speeds must not increase or more riders will have more serious injuries.

Again, it's not about whether a rider can handle a more powerful bike. It's that when crashes occur, it's simple physics that the faster the speed, the more intense the injury. We've reached a threshold that we have no business crossing.

That's my $.02, though it's probably worth more like a buck.

Radical




JustMX wrote:
In my opinion, the most important point in this entire debate. Thanks for stating it so well. Now, a general question for anybody that might be...
In my opinion, the most important point in this entire debate. Thanks for stating it so well.

Now, a general question for anybody that might be knowledgeable.

I see in the battery description from Alta that the battery can withstand a 20g hit.

Are there any conditions in mx that could cause an incident that would possibly exceed 20g?

Something like a higher speed crash into a fixed object like a tree, or a mid speed crash directly into a concrete wall.
Every freaking motor sport on the planet manages the overall speed of the vehicles as technology evolves.

NHRA and Leah Pritchett say Hello.





PRM31
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PRM31 9/28/2017 8:46am
9/28/2017 8:46am
Imagine how fast they'd be going if they still ran to 1320' and were using 100% nitro!
Johnny Depp
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Johnny Depp 9/28/2017 9:01am
9/28/2017 9:01am Edited Date/Time 9/28/2017 9:04am
PRM31 wrote:
Imagine how fast they'd be going if they still ran to 1320' and were using 100% nitro!
Great catch.
100% was popping too many engines and oiling the track, didn't slow them down one bit.
Tracks were shortened to 1000 feet after Scott Kalitta's death where the throttle stuck.
PRM31
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PRM31 9/28/2017 9:05am
9/28/2017 9:05am
PRM31 wrote:
Imagine how fast they'd be going if they still ran to 1320' and were using 100% nitro!
Johnny Depp wrote:
Great catch. 100% was popping too many engines and oiling the track, didn't slow them down one bit. Tracks were shortened to 1000 feet after Scott...
Great catch.
100% was popping too many engines and oiling the track, didn't slow them down one bit.
Tracks were shortened to 1000 feet after Scott Kalitta's death where the throttle stuck.
I know why they did it, just pointing out that even the vaunted 1/4mi dragstrip was altered in the name of reducing speed.
endurox
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endurox 9/28/2017 10:49am
9/28/2017 10:49am
Obviously the big 6 are stuffing money in the back pockets of the AMA. How about at least few cash paying exibition races. Have 5 250 and 5 450 riders who did not qualify for the main race against a few Alta's. podium would pay cash. Room for a new sponsor there.
Chris_Cooksey 9/29/2017 6:11am
9/29/2017 6:11am
endurox wrote:
Obviously the big 6 are stuffing money in the back pockets of the AMA. How about at least few cash paying exibition races. Have 5 250...
Obviously the big 6 are stuffing money in the back pockets of the AMA. How about at least few cash paying exibition races. Have 5 250 and 5 450 riders who did not qualify for the main race against a few Alta's. podium would pay cash. Room for a new sponsor there.
There is your "B"main.
Bramlett321
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Bramlett321 9/29/2017 6:38am
9/29/2017 6:38am
Johnny Depp wrote:
Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to...
Sorry, I disagree with that concept. Don't stifle innovation or put your finger on the scale. Too many dumb rules already, they shouldn't even need to get approved.
kkawboy14 wrote:
They can rate hp of anything
skiz wrote:
So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.? Sounds reasonable. To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented...
So you would favor deciding if they could race 250 or 450 based on HP.?
Sounds reasonable.

To Johnny Depp I would ask, if I invented a bike that could accelerate like a railgun, would it stifle innovation to be told that I could only race in the 450 class and not the 250 class.?

How do you define "put your finger on the scale".?
Is it that far fetched to think that in the future, and this is above my knowledge, that there could be some portable dyno that showed HP of every machine prior to race and that is our tech model? Otherwise how the world will the electric bikes be regulated? Just a thought.
Mike_Lawlor
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Mike_Lawlor 9/29/2017 7:02am
9/29/2017 7:02am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2017 7:08am
To race a Alta in Canada you need to be Canadian and born on the third Sunday of the month, have never won a C class race and have a minimum of 4 brothers whome you are the youngest. Just like if you want to race a two stroke in Canada.
mx317
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mx317 9/29/2017 9:22am
9/29/2017 9:22am
Johnny Depp wrote:
[img]https://motocrossactionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/3015/04/hores45015.jpg[/img]
Bosco wrote:
I logged in just to comment on how awful this table is. No units displayed, different units in the same table, titles on the bottom row...
I logged in just to comment on how awful this table is. No units displayed, different units in the same table, titles on the bottom row, different font sizes in the body. Not to mention the fact that surely this information is WAAAAAYY more clear on a graph? If you turned this in as a first year engineering student you'd get ripped apart.

So bad.
It was clear to me.
Erek_Kudla
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Erek_Kudla 9/29/2017 9:30am
9/29/2017 9:30am Edited Date/Time 9/29/2017 9:37am
Yes. The FIM approved Electric Bikes for competition.

No. They are not scheduled to race against regular bikes as far as I have read. If you find another document please post.

01.05 CATEGORIES AND GROUPS OF MOTORCYCLES
Motorcycles are divided into categories which must be observed for all meetings and
world record attempts.

In principle, it is forbidden for different categories, groups and classes to compete in
the same race, unless the Supplementary Regulations state otherwise.

Category I
Motorcycles propelled by the action of one wheel in contact with the ground.

Category III
Vehicles propelled by the action of multiple driving wheels in contact with the ground
in only one direction.
Group J – Electric Powered Vehicles (EPVs, see Art. 01.50)


The AMA added the definition of "Electric Bike" to the rulebook at the 2016 AMA congress, so it has been in the rulebook for all of 2017.

Motocross 1.2, Off-Road 2.2, Track 3.2
3. Electric Motorcycles
a. Electric Motorcycle is a two-wheeled vehicle powered and propelled solely by stored electricity (battery/accumulator), without the use of petroleum based fuels. Racing eligibility will be determined through supplemental rules.

In AMA Off-Road they have bee approved, upon request through supplementary regulations by the series, to run in "Non CC" classes - Pro, 30+, ect - or in it's own "Electric Bike" class.


The problem comes when trying to put it in a CC class... it has no CC's.

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