Upgrade to enjoy this feature!
Vital MX fantasy is free to play, but Premium users receive great benefits. Premium benefits include:
- View and download rider stats
- Pick trends
- Create a private league
- And more!
Only $10 for all 2026 SX, MX, and SMX series.
And I don't say this as a dig to Alta, I actually really applaud their efforts and innovation, and if they can survive the first marketing storm when KTM releases a brand new electric bike, I can see them sticking around (if they are not bought out). But to think ALTA would really be a major player when any of the big 6 step up their electric game would be a pipe dream I'm afraid.
In the right market, being an exclusive KTM dealer can probably be a lot more lucrative than catering to the big four market.
The Shop
Free shipping: VITALMX
DeCal Works Huge Plastic Inventory of UFO and Polisport kits.
Luxon 4-Post Bar Mounts
$189.95 - $239.95
this new one seems like an update from the one we saw a few years back. looks like a legit MX play to me.
Honda got a patent for their front brake line routing, I think battery development and power management might be even more of a patentable area........
Really curious what the KTM weighs.
It's the equivalent to applying for a patent on diesel engines on motorcycles because nobody has diesel MX bikes on the showroom floor.
http://stks.freshpatents.com/Tesla-Motors-Inc-nm1.php
Alta has a patent on packaging of multi-cell battery packs also......
https://www.google.com/patents/US20160028059
Here's a new Toyota battery patent.
http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG0…
On a side note to that, Novak, one of the largest and oldest electronic speed control manufacturers, closed it's doors last year. Novak is responsible for countless innovations and technologies in this field. One would have to assume that all of their technologies are for sale, for next to nothing.
point being, there are plenty of tech companies out there to buy and borrow tech from, and whatever tech Alta has isn't some secret special sauce. I imagine most of their R&D is in packaging anyway. Taking existing tech and packaging it into a motocross bike. To think that the major manufacturers aren't 100 times more capable of packaging than Alta is misinformed at best.
This is all just assuming the big 4 don't already have their own e-tech. And why would they want to acquire Alta anyway? I would imagine they'd all just go to Toyota, save for maybe Honda, who almost never buys out other technologies or works with other manufacturers.
Patents are only good for really provable new things.
I bet every manufacturer can patent or at least make application for their own battery.
Especially when it comes to methods of cooling, power management, etc. While all the electric bikes may end up looking similar (relatively, of course!), their internals and power management could be different enough that it becomes very difficult to sort out somewhat equal "classes" for different brands to compete against each other.
Pit Row
Until a new breakthrough in cell chemistry or manufacturing can be commercialized, I believe most advances will come in the form of Battery Management System algorithms. Currently, most strategies are for making the pack more efficient by balancing individual cells either during charge or discharge, sometimes both. In addition, the life span and reliability of the overall pack is increased. Thermal controls of individual cells is for the most part achieved using passive methods designed for worse case (continuous discharge) conditions and are therefore overdesigned. An example would be a battery pack module made of a composite material of treated carbon fibers, graphite, and various fillers which is pyrolyzed to form a porous carbon matrix. The porous matrix is saturated with a phase change material and many pockets machined in the matrix to accommodate individual cells. This kind of module works pretty well at conducting heat generated from the cells to a cool plate or framework which can reject the heat through convection just like the old air cooled bikes.
However, the trend towards maximum energy density is forcing the cells so close together that they almost touch. To fit within the confines of the frame and offer good CG placement the packs are getting dimensionally much squarer. With cell configurations of possibly 10 cells x 10 cells x 5 cells (500 cells in a pack roughly 9 x9 x15) even these more advanced passive thermal control designs can’t keep the cells in the center of the pack from getting too hot and activating their cell protection systems which leads to lower performance or potential failure. The pack module simply can’t transfer that much heat from the center out to the radiating surfaces in these dense packs.
So, a simplistic answer might be, don’t let the center cells get that hot to start with! But with all the cells discharging at the same rate how can that be done? There’s no law that says each cell needs to be discharged the same or even at all. Most good BMS control individual cell discharge already, but more for pack cell balancing than thermal control. There’s also no law that says you have design a pack where all the series cells adds up to your bus voltage. Why can’t a design add say 10% more series cells with the idea to be able to selectively shut off some cells and still maintain bus voltage?
What is needed is a sophisticated thermal control algorithm that looks at individual cell temperatures and the required load at the time and by selective switching tries to create advantages thermal gradients within the pack to help drive cell heat to where it can be best dissipated. It could do this by selectively switching out active cells and rotating in the more inactive ones. During periods of high load, cells closer to the heatsinks can be leaned on more than cells towards the center. During periods of lower load the center cells can be used proportional more. The act of selective switching could make active cell balancing very difficult, but that's an issue that would need to be addressed within the same algorithm. This could be considered an active system but without the complexities or weight of a forced cooling system.
Of course, a comprehensive sliding math model of the cells thermal/electrical characteristics under all operating conditions and an equally comprehensive thermal model of the pack module would be necessary before the first line of thermal control code could be written. Pretty complicated stuff. Maybe it’s being done already, I’ve been out of the R&D environment for a few years, but I’ve yet to read about it.
I only have basic knowledge about the subject, so I'll definitely not pretend I can add to your idea, but maybe I can share some thoughts of my own.
Although I think you have a great idea, it seems unlikely to me that this would neer have been tried in one way or another. Likely one of the biggest problems regarding the "sophisticated thermal control algorithm" would be the processing power needed to make this work. In a motorcycle application, would this be the ESC's job? I don't know how advanced the ESC is on the Alta, I can only tell in RC cars for example the majority of ESC's are still 8-bit, definitely not capable of such a complex task even for this very low-powered application. The cost would probably the second problem. Current Lithium batteries are so cheap to produce, I believe that is THE major factor why we aren't seeing a brand new technology arrive sooner.
Don't get me wrong, I think you have a great idea for maximizing the efficiency of the current commercially available batteries, I just believe the major e-tech brands have embraced the fact that current lithium tech (while relatively new) is walking on it's last legs and are therefore pumping billions into finding the next evolution in batteries that will be more energy dense, more stable, cooler, lighter and cleaner, which will eradicate a lot of problems that we are dealing with right now. I truly believe the next step in battery tech will be a technical revolution of sorts, comparable to the introduction of the internet. I can name about 20 markets off the top of my head that will explode with development once the new tech becomes mainstream, I just hope it's in the next 5 years and not in 20 years from now.
This is for larger systems, but it's hard to believe that they wouldn't be working on similar methods for smaller systems as well.
http://www.freshpatents.com/-dt20170330ptan20170093156.php
Is the KTM underpowered? Does it not perform as well as the Alta? I really want to pick up an electric and the Alta was top of the list, though with KTM being close I would get that if it is competitive.
Outside that, knowing the Alta is working with the military, and I have a pretty close attachment to our military, I can wait for better performance.
A patent for packing and cooling unless they really came up with something new and amazing, doesn't stop anyone and is for the share holders and investors to feel warm and fuzzy.
This thread is a perfect example of what patents can do for credibility, "ohhh alta has 6 patents and 3 pending! Don't mess with them"
Alta Redshift Torque: 120 ft/lbs
KTM E-SX Torque: 42nm or 30 ft/lbs
The Alta has 4x the torque of the KTM. If you watched Josh Hill compete on the Redshift at the RedBull straight rhythm, you can see first-hand why that torque is so important. He would not have been able to ride that course on a KTM E-Bike the way he can on the Redshift. Skipping from table top to table top... no way.
Alta Redshift HP: 40
KTM E-SX HP: 22
Twice the horsepower. The KTM is a lazy Sunday trail bike with enough power to barely get the front wheel off the ground. The Alta Redshift is a true high performance motorcycle comparable to a high performance internal combustion engine motorcycle.
If you want a Redshift right now, you'll probably need to find the nearest dealer, which may not be super close. They are still building their dealer network. They have two dealers in New York state (Southeast).
The SilentHawk project is pretty cool stuff:
http://www.popsci.com/special-forces-stealth-motorcycle-silent-hawk
I used to think also that Toyota or other established manufacturers would eat Tesla's lunch as soon as they saw a market that was worth their time.
Wrong - at least to date. With largest market capitalization of any established manufacturer, the market recognizes Tesla as the future leader.
The current trailbike notwithstanding, I think KTM and Alta ebike future will be different.
KTM is an innovator, unlike the established car manufacturers. While KTM's first bike is a trailbike, I have no doubt they either will buy Alta or be real competition when they deem it ready. Look at how KTM has advanced with their two design cycles (Factory edition and production) per year development plan.
I think the next 3-5 years will be an exciting time for ebikes. Reminds me of the early 80's when monoshocks and water cooling were evolving substantially year to year.
I think battery technology will start rapidly developing like semiconductor technology has in some kind of Moore's law manner.
More powerful, smaller, lighter batteries as material science innovations are developed in response to the market.
But I hope KTM and HUS develop the MX version of their FI two stroke XC in 2018 first. I want at least one more modern two stroke!
Post a reply to: KTM's response to Alta?