Matthes you got it wrong (Post race podcast)

JSmith
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Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 3:57pm
I listened to the post race podcast. Matthes is flat out wrong. I give Tomac a 0.5% (1/200) chance of winning the title if he just runs away and goes for the win. Basically he would be hoping Dungey (the most consistent rider in history) crashes or the bike breaks down. I give Tomac at least a 25% chance of winning the title with the method he tried by bunching up the field. I almost had to turn off the podcast because of how stupid Matthes sounded with his argument.
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5/9/2017 11:12am
I just came here to start this thread, I got holeshat on. Nice job, JSmith.

I am a General in the Steve Matthes Army. I have listened to Pulp from the beginning, and listened to his podcasts for years before Pulp even started. But Steve was 122% wrong on that podcast, and was a pulsating, throbbing, varicose dick vein about it on top of that. I was LOL'ing at JT$'s Twitter prediction.
Calihusky
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5/9/2017 11:18am
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up is fine but slowing down to make aggressive bumping passes on Dungey does seem to violate the rule book and if Dungey went down after Tomac slowed only to make contact on purpose there would no doubt be a protest. I also believe that Tomac was not purposely trying to put Dungey on the ground but I'm sure Grant and Reed would have done the deed considering they are Monster sponsored and looking for contracts.
So overall I agree with JT and Weigandt that bunching definitely increased the odds of winning somewhat but the plan probably doesn't work without on purpose aggressive contact which likely is a violation. Gallagher even said the rule of always racing forward to your ability was in place to prevent riders from drifting backwards or waiting for another rider just to hit them. That applies to this case but not the Marvin case.

Consider this though, in hindsight if Tomac just blew the doors off Dungey and won by 15 seconds he would have lost the actual title but everyone would be talking about how Tomac was the fastest and Dungey had nothing for him. Instead he pretty much validated Dungey's championship by throwing everything he had, including questionable team tactics, so we are now talking about how composed and consistent Dungey is as champion. I'm sure Dungey and Red Bull were pissed during the race but Tomac's strategy actually worked to their advantage in the end.
5/9/2017 11:29am
Calihusky wrote:
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up...
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up is fine but slowing down to make aggressive bumping passes on Dungey does seem to violate the rule book and if Dungey went down after Tomac slowed only to make contact on purpose there would no doubt be a protest. I also believe that Tomac was not purposely trying to put Dungey on the ground but I'm sure Grant and Reed would have done the deed considering they are Monster sponsored and looking for contracts.
So overall I agree with JT and Weigandt that bunching definitely increased the odds of winning somewhat but the plan probably doesn't work without on purpose aggressive contact which likely is a violation. Gallagher even said the rule of always racing forward to your ability was in place to prevent riders from drifting backwards or waiting for another rider just to hit them. That applies to this case but not the Marvin case.

Consider this though, in hindsight if Tomac just blew the doors off Dungey and won by 15 seconds he would have lost the actual title but everyone would be talking about how Tomac was the fastest and Dungey had nothing for him. Instead he pretty much validated Dungey's championship by throwing everything he had, including questionable team tactics, so we are now talking about how composed and consistent Dungey is as champion. I'm sure Dungey and Red Bull were pissed during the race but Tomac's strategy actually worked to their advantage in the end.
I had mixed feelings about Tomac's riding too. But you can't say he took the odds from 3% to 3.5% with the bunching strategy. That's a bunch of bull.
Calihusky
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5/9/2017 11:38am
Calihusky wrote:
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up...
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up is fine but slowing down to make aggressive bumping passes on Dungey does seem to violate the rule book and if Dungey went down after Tomac slowed only to make contact on purpose there would no doubt be a protest. I also believe that Tomac was not purposely trying to put Dungey on the ground but I'm sure Grant and Reed would have done the deed considering they are Monster sponsored and looking for contracts.
So overall I agree with JT and Weigandt that bunching definitely increased the odds of winning somewhat but the plan probably doesn't work without on purpose aggressive contact which likely is a violation. Gallagher even said the rule of always racing forward to your ability was in place to prevent riders from drifting backwards or waiting for another rider just to hit them. That applies to this case but not the Marvin case.

Consider this though, in hindsight if Tomac just blew the doors off Dungey and won by 15 seconds he would have lost the actual title but everyone would be talking about how Tomac was the fastest and Dungey had nothing for him. Instead he pretty much validated Dungey's championship by throwing everything he had, including questionable team tactics, so we are now talking about how composed and consistent Dungey is as champion. I'm sure Dungey and Red Bull were pissed during the race but Tomac's strategy actually worked to their advantage in the end.
I had mixed feelings about Tomac's riding too. But you can't say he took the odds from 3% to 3.5% with the bunching strategy. That's a...
I had mixed feelings about Tomac's riding too. But you can't say he took the odds from 3% to 3.5% with the bunching strategy. That's a bunch of bull.
I agree with that. Saying that bunching increased the winning odds by only .5% is when the argument started to go off the rails.

The Shop

burnside
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5/9/2017 11:41am
Agreed.
Love Matthes and his work but that was painful.
JSC&B
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5/9/2017 12:08pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 12:53pm
Oh that was an awesome text...
MX Guy
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5/9/2017 12:10pm
I see where Steve is coming from

I think Tomac knew what he had to do once Ryan got a great start. There was no way he could just pass him and hope for a mistake of some sort, he had to force the issue and slow him down if he wanted any chance at the title. If Ryan gets a bad start I guarantee you Eli goes balls to the wall to gap him.
TDeath21
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5/9/2017 12:13pm
The bunching strategy gained him a point, so we can't say it didn't work.
newmann
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5/9/2017 12:29pm
Eli should have just run away with it the week prior and he wouldn't have had to sandbag around like he did at the final. Crazy how someone can be so dominant that they can just toy with other championship caliber riders.
moto282
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5/9/2017 12:48pm
Agree as well. Fan of almost everything pulpmx does but this one was tough to listen to. Other than cleaning Dungey out, Tomac's only option was to slow it down. Hoping Dungey made a mistake behind him is crazy.
Johnny Ringo
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5/9/2017 12:55pm
Calihusky wrote:
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up...
The podcast was a little rough with the arguing but I have to agree I am not 100% ok with the Tomac strategy. Bunching them up is fine but slowing down to make aggressive bumping passes on Dungey does seem to violate the rule book and if Dungey went down after Tomac slowed only to make contact on purpose there would no doubt be a protest. I also believe that Tomac was not purposely trying to put Dungey on the ground but I'm sure Grant and Reed would have done the deed considering they are Monster sponsored and looking for contracts.
So overall I agree with JT and Weigandt that bunching definitely increased the odds of winning somewhat but the plan probably doesn't work without on purpose aggressive contact which likely is a violation. Gallagher even said the rule of always racing forward to your ability was in place to prevent riders from drifting backwards or waiting for another rider just to hit them. That applies to this case but not the Marvin case.

Consider this though, in hindsight if Tomac just blew the doors off Dungey and won by 15 seconds he would have lost the actual title but everyone would be talking about how Tomac was the fastest and Dungey had nothing for him. Instead he pretty much validated Dungey's championship by throwing everything he had, including questionable team tactics, so we are now talking about how composed and consistent Dungey is as champion. I'm sure Dungey and Red Bull were pissed during the race but Tomac's strategy actually worked to their advantage in the end.
It violates the rulebook? You mean the same rule book that does not allow team tactics? hmm
kiwifan
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5/9/2017 12:55pm
moto282 wrote:
Agree as well. Fan of almost everything pulpmx does but this one was tough to listen to. Other than cleaning Dungey out, Tomac's only option was...
Agree as well. Fan of almost everything pulpmx does but this one was tough to listen to. Other than cleaning Dungey out, Tomac's only option was to slow it down. Hoping Dungey made a mistake behind him is crazy.
yup totally agree....
BAD10
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5/9/2017 1:40pm
Matthes beat it in to the ground as usual. After ten minutes of his obstinacy I had to fast forward through all his B.S.. Wasn't entertaining at all......more like aggravating.
rmstrg
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5/9/2017 1:44pm
I laughed my ass off!!! I have three kids and I swear I hear a similar fight everyday, nobody wins and I get a headache.
peelout
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5/9/2017 1:48pm


500guy
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5/9/2017 1:54pm
Next after party I have, I'm kicking Matthes out!
5/9/2017 2:06pm
peelout wrote:
[img]https://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2017/05/09/193822/s1200_ridgeline.jpg[/img]


Hahahaha, that's awesome! Especially with the Canadian Tuxedo jacket.
Landonious217
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5/9/2017 2:14pm
It violates the rulebook? You mean the same rule book that does not allow team tactics? hmm
You mean the 3 points that didn't matter at all...... He still would've had to try the same strategy seeing that Dungey was in 2nd the whole race.
deluxeman
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5/9/2017 2:26pm
It violates the rulebook? You mean the same rule book that does not allow team tactics? hmm
You have no proof it was Team Tactics. If you have some proof lets see it.

If it was not premeditated by the team before the race, it cannot be considered team tactics. If Marvin made the decision to let his team mate by, that is Marvin's personal choice and not team tactics. Same with Josh Grant and Tomac.
Question
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5/9/2017 2:34pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 2:35pm
I don't know if it was fully ok with the rule book, but bunching was a good strategy.

I just think it was 1 lap too late. Imagine if the main have had 1 more lap: i think Tomac would have made a hard pass on Anderson while I think Dungey would have saved the 4th place and avoided any contact with Grant. Championship gap: 2 points with this scenario.

In all cases, that was fun to watch, what a season!
IceMan446
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5/9/2017 2:37pm
deluxeman wrote:
You have no proof it was Team Tactics. If you have some proof lets see it. If it was not premeditated by the team before the...
You have no proof it was Team Tactics. If you have some proof lets see it.

If it was not premeditated by the team before the race, it cannot be considered team tactics. If Marvin made the decision to let his team mate by, that is Marvin's personal choice and not team tactics. Same with Josh Grant and Tomac.
Do YOU have proof that it wasn't discussed before the race, and that they planned on this if the situation came up???

Don't use a lame ass argument like that when you don't know for sure it wasn't discussed prior to the race.
5/9/2017 2:54pm
Oh Lord save me. The PulpMX review just ran off topic and Matthe's reasoning's were off topic. Steve always goes off topic with his reasoning when confronted. He's consistent! The topic was if Tomac's plan was good and if it had a chance to work.

Tomac's plan was perfect. The bumping could have got Ryan's mind of his game. He didn't clean him out. He was just getting under his skin. It's the same strategy used by all of Matthe's ice hockey heroes. If Ryan's not focused, then he turns into Stew and smash-O. Tomac Wins.

For the position Tomac was in, it was the brilliant plan and if Reed, Grant, and Baggett don't fall, there's a 50% chance one of them gets around Dungey.

The only other option Tomac had as to pull an Osbourne on Dungey on the last lap. That would have easily won the championship, but I think Tomac didn't want to win it like that. IMO, of course.
fullysicmate
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5/9/2017 2:57pm Edited Date/Time 5/9/2017 3:04pm
TDeath21 wrote:
The bunching strategy gained him a point, so we can't say it didn't work.


Surely no one who listens to Matthes considers his opinion fact, entertaining though.
deluxeman
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5/9/2017 3:05pm
deluxeman wrote:
You have no proof it was Team Tactics. If you have some proof lets see it. If it was not premeditated by the team before the...
You have no proof it was Team Tactics. If you have some proof lets see it.

If it was not premeditated by the team before the race, it cannot be considered team tactics. If Marvin made the decision to let his team mate by, that is Marvin's personal choice and not team tactics. Same with Josh Grant and Tomac.
IceMan446 wrote:
Do YOU have proof that it wasn't discussed before the race, and that they planned on this if the situation came up??? Don't use a lame...
Do YOU have proof that it wasn't discussed before the race, and that they planned on this if the situation came up???

Don't use a lame ass argument like that when you don't know for sure it wasn't discussed prior to the race.
Of course I don't have proof, neither do you. People are throwing this shit around like they were in the trailer when it all went down. It is not a " lame ass argument" as you put it. You are pulling things out of thin air and calling them facts. Until someone has proof or someone from Red Bull KTM or Kawasaki says it was team orders, it's just a your opinion.

Do I think Musquin pulled over for Dungey? Yes he probably did, do I think DeCoster ordered it, I don't think he did. But that is merely speculation on my part. In the end it really doesn't matter either way Dungey has the #1 plate and Eli doesn't. Neither team was fined or penalized so on we go to the outdoor championship, and we can only hope it is as exciting as the indoor season was.
Johnny Ringo
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5/9/2017 3:57pm
You mean the 3 points that didn't matter at all...... He still would've had to try the same strategy seeing that Dungey was in 2nd the...
You mean the 3 points that didn't matter at all...... He still would've had to try the same strategy seeing that Dungey was in 2nd the whole race.
Context, Bro. Calihusky said taking Ryan out violated the rule book...Any Dunge fan claiming "rule breaking" on Eli's part would be a bit hypocritical after the whole "mistake" fiasco.
5/9/2017 4:25pm
newmann wrote:
Eli should have just run away with it the week prior and he wouldn't have had to sandbag around like he did at the final. Crazy...
Eli should have just run away with it the week prior and he wouldn't have had to sandbag around like he did at the final. Crazy how someone can be so dominant that they can just toy with other championship caliber riders.
Yes! We've watched Eli dominate the field and pull out big leads all season. The fact that he was able to let Dungey by multiple times and then pass him right back at will is so impressive. He's a bad ass!

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