Meanwhile, in Broken Arrow OK...Pow Pow Pow

Piston Slap
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3/31/2017 9:52am Edited Date/Time 3/31/2017 10:02am
APLMAN99 wrote:
I think she's technically "charged". She'll probably be technically "guilty" after her trial or plea......
You are correct, I used the wrong terminology.

Now, IMO
1. She took her friends to burgle a house a SECOND time that day
2. Burglary is a felony, as is conspiracy.
3. Friends got shot and killed in the commission of the felony(s)
4. She is charged with Murder under Felony Murder Rule.
5. She is talking to the police and the media without a lawyer of her free will
6. Prison for life

IMO
Piston Slap
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3/31/2017 9:56am Edited Date/Time 3/31/2017 10:07am
borg wrote:
Make it cocaine. Now it's a felony, in a bad neighborhood and I was the wheel man in the purchase. Is that murder?
Was he paying for the coke? or was he gonna rip him off for it?

It's a matter of intent and foreseeability.

If he was gonna just try and score some coke and pay for it, then no prolly no felony murder for you imo

If he was gonna rob him, and you knew it...yes. Felony murder would likely apply to you.

I didn't make the law, that's just the way it is written in most states

And sometimes it's a stupid law....and lots of times it ain't.....

And convoluted hypotheticals can be made up and argued all day long.

Prosecutors don't have to pad resumes there are plenty of criminals
Piston Slap
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3/31/2017 10:01am
MR. X wrote:
That's the part I don't understand , if 4 people knew the plan and 3 aren't talking,how did she get caught. She could technically make up...
That's the part I don't understand , if 4 people knew the plan and 3 aren't talking,how did she get caught. She could technically make up any story she wanted.
SHE called the police and reported knowledge of the crime!

She is talking to the police and media freely and without an attorney.....

That's insanity......lol
motogrady
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3/31/2017 10:08am
borg wrote:
Make it cocaine. Now it's a felony, in a bad neighborhood and I was the wheel man in the purchase. Is that murder?
Was he paying for the coke? or was he gonna rip him off for it? It's a matter of intent and foreseeability. If he was gonna...
Was he paying for the coke? or was he gonna rip him off for it?

It's a matter of intent and foreseeability.

If he was gonna just try and score some coke and pay for it, then no prolly no felony murder for you imo

If he was gonna rob him, and you knew it...yes. Felony murder would likely apply to you.

I didn't make the law, that's just the way it is written in most states

And sometimes it's a stupid law....and lots of times it ain't.....

And convoluted hypotheticals can be made up and argued all day long.

Prosecutors don't have to pad resumes there are plenty of criminals
They kicked in the back door.
They were wearing black masks.

How could any rational human being think he was not being robbed?

The Shop

FLmxer
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3/31/2017 10:17am
Pre meditated. In Florida commit a robbery and someone dies, all perps involved are charged with murder as they should even if its some of the robbers that die.
lostboy819
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3/31/2017 10:35am
borg wrote:
So I drop my Cousin off in a bad neighborhood on my way to work to score some pot and he gets into an altercation with...
So I drop my Cousin off in a bad neighborhood on my way to work to score some pot and he gets into an altercation with the pusher and the pusher shoots him dead I am guilty of murder? Is my Brother, who loaned me 5 bucks for gas so I could take my Cousin down there also a murderer? Vague laws are moral hazard for prosecutors who looking to fatten up their resume.

lostboy819 wrote:
Think before you post. Were you committing a felony at the time and was his death a direct result of your putting it all in motion...
Think before you post. Were you committing a felony at the time and was his death a direct result of your putting it all in motion ? NO so STFU . Now if you and him were going to the bad neighborhood to rob someone and he gets killed or kills someone, then YES you will be charged.
borg wrote:
Make it cocaine. Now it's a felony, in a bad neighborhood and I was the wheel man in the purchase. Is that murder?
I dont know, try it and find out.
hppylib
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3/31/2017 12:54pm
I miss the USA.

Here in Canada, should you find yourself in the unfortunate position where you must defend yourself with deadly force, you will be arrested and charged with a crime.

The above paragraph was copied from here.... this website says that you will probably be found not guilty after an expensive legal battle. But at least you and your family are still alive. Just poorer.

It's retarded.

I miss the USA.
Falcon
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3/31/2017 4:31pm
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing of someone? She didn't set out to kill anyone (or she could at the very least argue that,) and neither did the homeowner who did all the life-taking. It seems like this is a manslaughter charge, like when you kill someone in a car accident... even DUI cases end in "vehicular manslaughter" convictions.

I'm not defending the criminal here, just wondering out loud.
borg
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3/31/2017 7:21pm
Falcon wrote:
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing...
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing of someone? She didn't set out to kill anyone (or she could at the very least argue that,) and neither did the homeowner who did all the life-taking. It seems like this is a manslaughter charge, like when you kill someone in a car accident... even DUI cases end in "vehicular manslaughter" convictions.

I'm not defending the criminal here, just wondering out loud.
Pretty much where I'm coming from. I'm not challenging what the law is, I'm challenging the law.
Ebs
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3/31/2017 7:42pm
It's tough to follow because you are trying to apply logic to a warped usage of the justice system.
TXDirt
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4/1/2017 1:50am
Falcon wrote:
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing...
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing of someone? She didn't set out to kill anyone (or she could at the very least argue that,) and neither did the homeowner who did all the life-taking. It seems like this is a manslaughter charge, like when you kill someone in a car accident... even DUI cases end in "vehicular manslaughter" convictions.

I'm not defending the criminal here, just wondering out loud.
By this logic then if they had killed the family in the house you want them only charged with manslaughter too? I mean after all they didn't intend to kill the family. Only to break in and rob them.
omalley
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4/1/2017 5:06am
Falcon wrote:
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing...
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing of someone? She didn't set out to kill anyone (or she could at the very least argue that,) and neither did the homeowner who did all the life-taking. It seems like this is a manslaughter charge, like when you kill someone in a car accident... even DUI cases end in "vehicular manslaughter" convictions.

I'm not defending the criminal here, just wondering out loud.
TXDirt wrote:
By this logic then if they had killed the family in the house you want them only charged with manslaughter too? I mean after all they...
By this logic then if they had killed the family in the house you want them only charged with manslaughter too? I mean after all they didn't intend to kill the family. Only to break in and rob them.
Unfortunately you just described the interpretation in WA State. Our Supreme Court added intent being required for the felony murder rule, which basically nullifies the rule (since killing with intent would be murder in its own right).
lostboy819
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4/1/2017 12:54pm
She gonna fry. Cool
4/1/2017 4:33pm
Falcon wrote:
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing...
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing of someone? She didn't set out to kill anyone (or she could at the very least argue that,) and neither did the homeowner who did all the life-taking. It seems like this is a manslaughter charge, like when you kill someone in a car accident... even DUI cases end in "vehicular manslaughter" convictions.

I'm not defending the criminal here, just wondering out loud.
If you burglarize an occupied dwelling in a locality which permits ownership of firearms, you have a reasonable expectation of being being met with deadly force if the dwelling is occupied. I believe that's the basis of the 1st degree murder charge...besides, the law where this incident occured allows for that charge in this instance, so who cares? Let her go down for murder 1. It's called being accountable for your actions.f Don't start none, won't be none. End of story
kzizok
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4/1/2017 4:44pm Edited Date/Time 4/1/2017 4:59pm
Broken Arrow, OK is north of Broken Bow, OK (Kings of Leon's neck of the woods).

Make my day law is pretty well known in Oklahoma. Trespass/plan/involve with bad intentions, be prepared to pay the ultimate price(s). Also, looks like open carry, no permit, is coming too.
Ebs
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4/1/2017 10:07pm
Should all passengers in a speeding car get a ticket, or just the driver?
FLmxer
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4/2/2017 10:05am
Those found here at night will be found here in the morning.
lostboy819
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4/2/2017 11:24am
Ebs wrote:
Should all passengers in a speeding car get a ticket, or just the driver?
Should we compare apples to coconuts ?
Ebs
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4/2/2017 9:23pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Should we compare apples to coconuts ?
Not really, I took the principle of the law and applied it another scenario. That tends to be a pretty good measure if something is reasonable or not, how it applies universally.

But I understand why they do it, it helps prosecutors with dead end investigations. If we get to disregard personal responsibility we can just charge everyone with the same crime regardless of their involvement. It removes much of the scrutiny that is supposed to take place in a criminal case.

Don't mistake any of this as sympathy for the criminals involved.
lostboy819
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4/2/2017 9:50pm Edited Date/Time 4/2/2017 9:53pm
lostboy819 wrote:
Should we compare apples to coconuts ?
Ebs wrote:
Not really, I took the principle of the law and applied it another scenario. That tends to be a pretty good measure if something is reasonable...
Not really, I took the principle of the law and applied it another scenario. That tends to be a pretty good measure if something is reasonable or not, how it applies universally.

But I understand why they do it, it helps prosecutors with dead end investigations. If we get to disregard personal responsibility we can just charge everyone with the same crime regardless of their involvement. It removes much of the scrutiny that is supposed to take place in a criminal case.

Don't mistake any of this as sympathy for the criminals involved.
Not really because the others in the speeding car and not helping break the law they are just along for the ride. The 3 who were killed and the driver who planned the burglary all were actively involved and willing participants in the crime that they were committing and the crime was a felony so it has a different standard.
Falcon
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4/3/2017 11:06am
Falcon wrote:
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing...
So, I get that someone can be charged with the deaths of her own accomplices under that law. But 1st-degree murder? Isn't that a premeditated killing of someone? She didn't set out to kill anyone (or she could at the very least argue that,) and neither did the homeowner who did all the life-taking. It seems like this is a manslaughter charge, like when you kill someone in a car accident... even DUI cases end in "vehicular manslaughter" convictions.

I'm not defending the criminal here, just wondering out loud.
TXDirt wrote:
By this logic then if they had killed the family in the house you want them only charged with manslaughter too? I mean after all they...
By this logic then if they had killed the family in the house you want them only charged with manslaughter too? I mean after all they didn't intend to kill the family. Only to break in and rob them.
Well, no. In your example, the robbers did the killing and it would be difficult to determine intent. You could argue that they intended to kill the family. In this case, however, it was a homeowner who rightfully defended his home and took the lives of the driver's accomplices. I'm guessing the driver didn't want her homeboys to come to harm.

-She was responsible for robbery, yes.
-She put them in harm's way, yes.
-She is partly responsible for their deaths, yes.
-Did she plan and execute their demises? No. That's my point. This is 2nd-degree all day long. (Or Manslaughter.)
I'm not a lawyer so obviously I'm missing some of the finer points, but I think it will be hard for the DA to convince a jury that she thought about and intended for her accomplices to die, a requirement for 1st-degree murder. (Right???)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Either way, she is screwed.
Falcon
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4/3/2017 11:10am
So, I just found this little nugget of wisdom which appears to validate what you guys have been saying about the felony murder rule:


First Degree Murder: Definition

In most states, first-degree murder is defined as an unlawful killing that is both willful and premeditated, meaning that it was committed after planning or "lying in wait" for the victim. For example, Dan comes home to find his wife in bed with Victor. Three days later, Dan waits behind a tree near Victor's front door. When Victor comes out of his house, Dan shoots and kills him.

Most states also adhere to a legal concept known as the "felony murder rule," under which a person commits first-degree murder if any death (even an accidental one) results from the commission of certain violent felonies, such as:

Arson;
Burglary;
Kidnapping;
Rape; and
Robbery.

For example, Dan and Connie rob Victor's liquor store, but as they're fleeing, Victor shoots and kills Dan. Under the felony murder rule, Connie can be charged with first-degree murder for Dan's death even though neither of the robbers actually did the killing.


It seems strange that Victor can shoot a man in the back and Connie can be charged with it. Oh well, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
Falcon
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4/3/2017 11:47am
Laughing Laughing


"As they're fleeing." Cool
newmann
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4/3/2017 12:30pm
Falcon wrote:
Laughing Laughing


"As they're fleeing." Cool
Okay, he was hanging out the car window shooting repeatedly.

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