2 Stroke Verdict

Madmax31
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Edited Date/Time 1/24/2012 3:58am
Anyone know when the decission is going to be made to allow 250 2 strokes to compete with 4 strokes in the nats?
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Tiki
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1/27/2009 10:21pm
Who cares. The two stroke now has a noose around its neck. Welcome to the Obama cabinet and the "New and Improved" up your ass EPA. Lets all give it up for the EPA!

Four strokes next!
race
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1/27/2009 10:51pm
Madmax31 wrote:
Anyone know when the decission is going to be made to allow 250 2 strokes to compete with 4 strokes in the nats?
Don't mind Tiki.

Smokers are coming back and he's worried about having to ride a 500.

wardy
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1/28/2009 7:35am
well if they do allow them, lets just throw that 500 back in the 450 class. make it more interesting. hell i would go to a national again. LOL.

but no way will "team" or OEM people allow it. not a chance in hell. NPG would see an increase in popularity and it would draw people no question...........but hell it's only money.

Smile

The Shop

RACERX69
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1/28/2009 7:52am
wardy wrote:
well if they do allow them, lets just throw that 500 back in the 450 class. make it more interesting. hell i would go to a...
well if they do allow them, lets just throw that 500 back in the 450 class. make it more interesting. hell i would go to a national again. LOL.

but no way will "team" or OEM people allow it. not a chance in hell. NPG would see an increase in popularity and it would draw people no question...........but hell it's only money.

Smile
It's awfully ironic how the manufacturers are afraid their beloved 4-stroke would be at a disadvantage to the 250-stroke. They sure didn't have any issues when the 250F's were allowed in the 125 class, or the 450's in the 250 class!! What a frickin crock. It's all about money. In the end, I hope their greed bites them in the ass. With the state of the global economy, it could very well happen. People don't have the discretionary cash or credit they once had to blow on expensive 4-strokes.
DrSweden
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1/28/2009 8:02am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2009 4:52am
Still, the sad part is that the only thing for us to do is buy YZ250, SX250 and give the Fs the finger. Pretty odd that we need an idol riding one to get our fingers out of our butts.
BIGHEAD1
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1/28/2009 8:50am
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes, I will talk to a vet rider who says he misses the sound but that's about it... Yet it's a constant on the forums of how they need to bring the two stroke back. Why is that?

I miss the sound of a two-stroke but I don't think anyone but casual riders or old school guys would rather ride one...
Moto East Mag
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1/28/2009 9:00am
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes...
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes, I will talk to a vet rider who says he misses the sound but that's about it... Yet it's a constant on the forums of how they need to bring the two stroke back. Why is that?

I miss the sound of a two-stroke but I don't think anyone but casual riders or old school guys would rather ride one...
Or any kid currently racing Supermini or any 85cc class.
HD1200
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1/28/2009 9:07am
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes...
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes, I will talk to a vet rider who says he misses the sound but that's about it... Yet it's a constant on the forums of how they need to bring the two stroke back. Why is that?

I miss the sound of a two-stroke but I don't think anyone but casual riders or old school guys would rather ride one...
Well for fun at the races, example last years Atl. SX, RC rode his RM250 not the RMZ450, so maybe they don't talk much about it but it shows when they are not competing!
midpack
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1/28/2009 9:09am
Looks like you can go to Service Honda and buy whatever you want. Let the 250's and the 500's back in. I'll admit as a Vet rider the 4-strokes are much better to ride. But the cost to rebuild the motors is nuts. The appeal of the 2-stroke from a $ standpoint I can see.
Foster576
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1/28/2009 9:10am
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes...
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes, I will talk to a vet rider who says he misses the sound but that's about it... Yet it's a constant on the forums of how they need to bring the two stroke back. Why is that?

I miss the sound of a two-stroke but I don't think anyone but casual riders or old school guys would rather ride one...
I missed riding 2 strokes. I ended up buying one last year. I ride it about as much as my 450. I know they wont come back but that was half the reason for me getting it. 4 strokes are here to stay and I love riding them also but when it rains out here in the desert there is nothing like taking the 250 2 stroke out to a wet sand whooped track and run it pinned.
zookrider62!
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1/28/2009 9:14am
I will always love the feeling of pullin a holeshot on a 250, or passing one on a straight
Sledneck
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1/28/2009 9:24am
The reality is mid pack guys are mid pack guys.

One of these more popular mid pack guys should go against the grain and race 2 strokes.

Sponsoring is about exposure. You cant say a guy or guys on a 2 stroke team wouldnt get plenty of camera time, and the fan base is there.
Everyones gonna look at the screaming 2 stroke when it goes by.
Stewart never needed a 4 stroke to beat the 250Fs, and the only one he didnt beat all the time on a 250 2 stroke was RC, but he did on occasion.

Nothing changed when he got on a 4 stroke.

jndmx
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1/28/2009 9:58am
wardy wrote:
well if they do allow them, lets just throw that 500 back in the 450 class. make it more interesting. hell i would go to a...
well if they do allow them, lets just throw that 500 back in the 450 class. make it more interesting. hell i would go to a national again. LOL.

but no way will "team" or OEM people allow it. not a chance in hell. NPG would see an increase in popularity and it would draw people no question...........but hell it's only money.

Smile
I hate to say it but unless the OEM's decide to start pushing the smoker again Wardy is absolutely right.

They have way too much money invested in the tractors now and they aren't going to showcase how something older tech wise is "just as good"....not going to happen.
Madmax31
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1/28/2009 6:20pm
Tiki wrote:
Who cares. The two stroke now has a noose around its neck. Welcome to the Obama cabinet and the "New and Improved" up your ass EPA...
Who cares. The two stroke now has a noose around its neck. Welcome to the Obama cabinet and the "New and Improved" up your ass EPA. Lets all give it up for the EPA!

Four strokes next!
"who cares" Well aparently I do jackass. I didn't ask for you stupid opinion.

I asked if a decission had been reached and apparently it hasn't.
wardy
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1/28/2009 7:55pm
Tell ya what a 500 in the 450 class would be fine competitive and interesting to see. we old turds race against 450's all the time and well it fits.

But letting the oem's decide, well thats a joke. It's like buying a chevy, and going to the ford dealer for an opinion. so typical.
Sledneck
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1/28/2009 8:46pm
I have to ask. James used to look like he was manhandling a bike, make it go whereever,whenever, now it looks like he's hanging on to a bucking bronco along for the ride.

Maybe he's a better 2 stroke rider? I miss 2 strokes at SLC SX
MX7MX
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1/28/2009 8:59pm
Ok....so let me get this straight......James was racing a 125 against 250Fs and dominating.......so we should throw all the riders on 250oil burners to race against the very 4 stroke the 125 is capable of beating?? This is getting old.....let it go....the 2 strokes are gone....if you dont' like it, don't buy a bike, don't race, don't watch and don't participate anymore.

But I do like everyones opinion on the CC for CC racing regardless of HOW that power is made and the hp differences etc. So, I also love fast cars....my favorite being the vette. So....get two vettes same year model.....build both motors to 383ci......but add a supercharger to one. That should be fair right? Their both the same cc.....who cares how they make their power......right?
Rim Lock
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1/28/2009 11:16pm
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes...
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes, I will talk to a vet rider who says he misses the sound but that's about it... Yet it's a constant on the forums of how they need to bring the two stroke back. Why is that?

I miss the sound of a two-stroke but I don't think anyone but casual riders or old school guys would rather ride one...
I missed them so bad that I sold my CRF250 and bought an RM250.

It is a WIDE subject to discuss. CC's vs CC's, traction-ability, expensive maintenance, expensive rebuilds, ease of riding, etc.

The thing that worries me the most is that a local dad can't go buy a used 'dependable' 125 2-stroke anymore to get his kid in to racing at an affordable price.

The only option now is to buy a used 250 4-stroke (which is like a hand grenade with the pin out) or plunk down 6K+ for a new one.

Just a few years ago, a guy could at least 'try out' racing for a few thousand bucks.
Now it is a major investment.

I personally feel that it is going to become an elitist sport where if you don't make good money, you aren't going to be able to race on any level.

Being an old guy who raced in Levis and lace up work boots back in the 70's, I find this a sad development.
ty159
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1/29/2009 4:49am
MX7MX wrote:
Ok....so let me get this straight......James was racing a 125 against 250Fs and dominating.......so we should throw all the riders on 250oil burners to race against...
Ok....so let me get this straight......James was racing a 125 against 250Fs and dominating.......so we should throw all the riders on 250oil burners to race against the very 4 stroke the 125 is capable of beating?? This is getting old.....let it go....the 2 strokes are gone....if you dont' like it, don't buy a bike, don't race, don't watch and don't participate anymore.

But I do like everyones opinion on the CC for CC racing regardless of HOW that power is made and the hp differences etc. So, I also love fast cars....my favorite being the vette. So....get two vettes same year model.....build both motors to 383ci......but add a supercharger to one. That should be fair right? Their both the same cc.....who cares how they make their power......right?
I wondered how long it would take this jackass to chime in. Stay out of two stroke threads if this all you have to offer!

Some people like the power delivery, light weight and nimble handling of the two stroke! I personally will be getting a Service Honda CR250 in another year or so. When I get ready to sell the CR250 I'm riding now!
DrSweden
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1/29/2009 5:06am
Facts remains I assume that a majority wants them back despite this constant argue. I haven't heard any intelligent argument why they don't belong? I think it's retarded to kill them because they have their advantages against the banger, and I think that the benefits the sport. I like them both to coexist and to argue that is destructive I think.

I will own both, but if I have a kid that want's to ride he will get a smoker. Not a way on earth will I work valves on two bikes.


prillernut
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1/29/2009 7:36am
BIGHEAD1 wrote:
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes...
I have never met a person at an actual race that misses two strokes. No one says " I miss riding them..I want them back!" Sometimes, I will talk to a vet rider who says he misses the sound but that's about it... Yet it's a constant on the forums of how they need to bring the two stroke back. Why is that?

I miss the sound of a two-stroke but I don't think anyone but casual riders or old school guys would rather ride one...
Rim Lock wrote:
I missed them so bad that I sold my CRF250 and bought an RM250. It is a WIDE subject to discuss. CC's vs CC's, traction-ability, expensive...
I missed them so bad that I sold my CRF250 and bought an RM250.

It is a WIDE subject to discuss. CC's vs CC's, traction-ability, expensive maintenance, expensive rebuilds, ease of riding, etc.

The thing that worries me the most is that a local dad can't go buy a used 'dependable' 125 2-stroke anymore to get his kid in to racing at an affordable price.

The only option now is to buy a used 250 4-stroke (which is like a hand grenade with the pin out) or plunk down 6K+ for a new one.

Just a few years ago, a guy could at least 'try out' racing for a few thousand bucks.
Now it is a major investment.

I personally feel that it is going to become an elitist sport where if you don't make good money, you aren't going to be able to race on any level.

Being an old guy who raced in Levis and lace up work boots back in the 70's, I find this a sad development.
x2. Flame on...
lumpy790
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1/29/2009 7:51am Edited Date/Time 1/29/2009 7:52am
There is no rule I am aware of that says a 500cc 2 stroke can not race the 450 nationals.

And do you really think someone racing a 250 smoker would increase attendance??? I dont think so.
-eagle-
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1/29/2009 7:54am Edited Date/Time 4/16/2016 10:13pm
Would love to see a budget comparison for the entire outdoor series. 250f vs 250t

With all this "bad economy, team budget cuts" hype around the pro series why not allow it.

Its polishing brass on the titanic anyway, only 2 oems have them left.

People trying to: "fix the nationals & make them more exciting, but wont allow this?"

The MXA link I posted in this thread is awesome. Ultimate call out.





Anyone that thinks they are such an advantage should try to do 30+2 on each bike.

I've got friends that range from 1st year beginners to guys that have made nationals; NOT ONE of these people will argue. The 250f is easier to ride faster & longer.
Larry
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1/29/2009 7:56am
Rim Lock wrote:
I missed them so bad that I sold my CRF250 and bought an RM250. It is a WIDE subject to discuss. CC's vs CC's, traction-ability, expensive...
I missed them so bad that I sold my CRF250 and bought an RM250.

It is a WIDE subject to discuss. CC's vs CC's, traction-ability, expensive maintenance, expensive rebuilds, ease of riding, etc.

The thing that worries me the most is that a local dad can't go buy a used 'dependable' 125 2-stroke anymore to get his kid in to racing at an affordable price.

The only option now is to buy a used 250 4-stroke (which is like a hand grenade with the pin out) or plunk down 6K+ for a new one.

Just a few years ago, a guy could at least 'try out' racing for a few thousand bucks.
Now it is a major investment.

I personally feel that it is going to become an elitist sport where if you don't make good money, you aren't going to be able to race on any level.

Being an old guy who raced in Levis and lace up work boots back in the 70's, I find this a sad development.
And a kid can learn alot more riding a somewhat underpowered 125 vs a 250f.
OW38B
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1/29/2009 8:28am
lumpy790 wrote:
There is no rule I am aware of that says a 500cc 2 stroke can not race the 450 nationals. And do you really think someone...
There is no rule I am aware of that says a 500cc 2 stroke can not race the 450 nationals.

And do you really think someone racing a 250 smoker would increase attendance??? I dont think so.
As of today the Pro Nationals classes are:

450 Class = 450cc 4stroke/ 250cc 2 stroke

250 class = 250cc 4stroke/125cc 2 stroke

Though there is some talk about changing for 2009.

Affirmative action for 4 strokes needs to stop, it was a stupid idea when it started and is stupid today…….thanks AMA.
jndmx
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1/29/2009 8:39am
Larry wrote:
And a kid can learn alot more riding a somewhat underpowered 125 vs a 250f.
Maybe...maybe not but at least that kid will be out there riding because dad can afford it.

I am very close to this subject since my son just made the move off the 85's.

I bought a 06 YZ125 because it is a better transition machine in my opinion and it cost less than half of any 06 4 stroke I could find.

Maybe money isn't an issue for some of you folks but it is for me and the 2 stroke is by far more affordable.
LIVEWIRE
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1/29/2009 9:15am
Larry wrote:
And a kid can learn alot more riding a somewhat underpowered 125 vs a 250f.
jndmx wrote:
Maybe...maybe not but at least that kid will be out there riding because dad can afford it. I am very close to this subject since my...
Maybe...maybe not but at least that kid will be out there riding because dad can afford it.

I am very close to this subject since my son just made the move off the 85's.

I bought a 06 YZ125 because it is a better transition machine in my opinion and it cost less than half of any 06 4 stroke I could find.

Maybe money isn't an issue for some of you folks but it is for me and the 2 stroke is by far more affordable.
Maybe money isn't an issue for some of you folks but it is for me and the 2 stroke is by far more affordable.

I can afford it, but I am done with racing, maintaining and repairing 250F's for my son. The money I have in this bike is a joke. My kid will run a bike 20+ hours a month.

We also have an 06 YZ 125, hell it's so affordable I have fun modifying it.

Just bought him a 09 YZ 250 to race local in the 450 class and run it in the 250 class at AMA events.

When he gets a little stronger (15, 125lbs) I will get the 450.

He struggled with the YZ250F in the corners(not the best cornering machine) when he came off the 85, so I bought the 125 and what a difference in the corners. Then got back on the 250F and did not have the corner issues

Also Larry Brooks seen us with the 125 at a local REM race running with the 250F's, said it was wise to go from the 85 to the 125 first, especially for a skinny light kid.

My son is not the next RC. This sport keeps my son away from the BS and has built a better bond between us that is awesome, not to mention the discipline, exercise etc, etc.

Also, more money goes into his college fund instead of 250f rebuilds.
MX7MX
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1/29/2009 9:17am
Stewart dominated on a 125 against the 250Fs. YOU CAN RACE A 125 RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't get everyones complaint. You say you want it competitive. Stewart(I know bad example right?) showed that they are competitive. If a rider is good enough.....it won't matter what he's on right?? Those that say its not competitive are the ones who arent good enough and need the extra advantage the 250T would give them to beat the 4 strokes.

ANOTHER COMPARISON............

Take a 327CI vette motor and run it against a 327CI Diesel(I know , its an example). Both in stock form and lets race them on a drag strip and on a road course. HMMMMMMMMM which one will win. SHould be a fair straight up race since they are both CC for CC racing RIGHT???????
MX7MX
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1/29/2009 9:17am

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