Public "Practice" Track Question

Schenk829
Posts
79
Joined
6/4/2009
Location
Orrtanna, PA US
I have the opportunity to build a track that I could open to the public as a "practice track." I have the Land, Water, Equipment, Access road and some great terrain and dirt. My question is does anyone know what legally needs to be done to open it to the public and charge a fee to ride there? Is there insurance required, zoning issues? If any one has any input or experience I would like to know where to start or what I could be expecting. Not looking to have it open everyday or to a lot of riders at one time, more of like rental or reserved day set up for 10-15 riders at a time. Thanks for any help!
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Schenk829
Posts
79
Joined
6/4/2009
Location
Orrtanna, PA US
1/5/2017 8:13am
Also forgot to mention the track would be in PA if that makes any difference.
Hallzilla
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937
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1/21/2011
Location
Langtown, CA US
1/5/2017 8:31am
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get an attorney to draft something up for you that will protect everything. Also pretty good idea to make it an LLC. Keep it separate from the personal. Having said that i'm a motocrosser and not very smart. Smile
Schenk829
Posts
79
Joined
6/4/2009
Location
Orrtanna, PA US
1/5/2017 8:46am
Hallzilla wrote:
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get...
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get an attorney to draft something up for you that will protect everything. Also pretty good idea to make it an LLC. Keep it separate from the personal. Having said that i'm a motocrosser and not very smart. Smile
There is a track close to here that does that, they hold AMA races too so I wasn't sure if they had an insurance that covered both, Im pretty sure on race day insurance was thru AMA but not 100%. Also the track has been around since the 40's so who knows what has been grandfathered in.
kaptkaos
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1087
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11/17/2015
Location
Miami, FL US
1/5/2017 8:50am
Do a search, there is a lot of good information already available on this topic.

From what I recall you will need a good lawyer to draft up some articles, waivers, and shelter you in an LLC.

I think you are better off just riding it alone when all is said and done. Almost everyone said they had issues, even with good people they knew getting hurt and causing problems.

You take on a lot of responsibility from providing a groomed and safe track, flaggers, all sorts of things. If you havent written down every possible risk in a waiver/membership agreement it could get messy. Even if you do win in court, its still a PITA.

There is a lawyer that provides this service and he is in several of the threads, you will have to search and read. Its a good read if you are serious about doing this.

The Shop

NoahSuthy99
Posts
65
Joined
8/29/2016
Location
Thomasville, PA US
1/5/2017 8:55am
Sounds awesome to me, we need more tracks here in PA. Where would the track actually be at?
1/5/2017 8:58am
I agree on the membership thing. Our really local track is like that... Everyone pays like $250 year which pays for the grooming, watering etc. Those who pay get a key to the gate, and can ride anytime they wish. Pretty solid deal. The "can my friend bring his friends friend?" stuff gets to be a pain in the ass though.. I mean I'm all for the more the merrier, but more bikes does = more wear n tear on the track
Dtat720
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1588
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2/20/2015
Location
Flowood, MS US
1/5/2017 9:00am
Definately contact an attorney who knows what he/she is looking at and can advise accordingly. What you will need to do depends on your states liability laws.

Example: Louisiana has a law in the books that protects not only the track operator, but the rider as well in the event of an accident. I say rider because the states a vehicle pilot losing control of his vehicle cannot be held liable for injuries resulting wether another racer or a spectator and the property owner/ event host cannot be held liable. Racers and spectators take liability risk knowingly when they enter the property for an event. That goes for racing and practice.

But, as another example, Mississippi, where i am, liability waivers hold zero credibility in court unless they are independently obtained, as in, not on site from the host, and notorized before entering an event.

Need to make sure what laws your state has nefore doing anything.
aharper33
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69
Joined
12/13/2016
Location
Laramie, WY US
1/5/2017 9:17am
Something to think about is what are the people getting for joining the club? Is it going to be they get a key to a gate for the track and practice when they want. Or is it going to be open practice at different times of the week and the money basically just to cover fuel cost. And just another thought, are you going to have 1 time membership, weekly, monthly, or yearly memberships?
BobPA
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8324
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10/31/2013
Location
PA US
1/5/2017 9:20am
Please continue about this new track in PA....
rrjr
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1133
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11/1/2012
Location
CA US
1/5/2017 9:56am
First thing I would do is talk to the people who own the land next to where you're planning to build. If they're opposed to it you'll have a tough time getting a permit.
ferg722
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219
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6/21/2016
Location
Pitt, PA US
1/5/2017 9:58am
Sounds awesome to me, we need more tracks here in PA. Where would the track actually be at?
X2 where's this possible track you speak of op?
Schenk829
Posts
79
Joined
6/4/2009
Location
Orrtanna, PA US
1/5/2017 9:58am
Thank you, a lot of great info on here, It has been a private track for many years, to farm field, to cow pasture and now looking to make it back to a track again. There is also room to put a decent woods loop as well as spots for camping and a pond to swim in. Also the track would be in the same location as our dealership so that and the track would be awesome for us at the shop and also for those riding! For those of you asking the location is about 10 min from Gettysburg PA.

The membership idea is what I was going with, Was looking at doing monthly memberships with limited spots, with a possibility of "open" practice days.

Thanks!
NoahSuthy99
Posts
65
Joined
8/29/2016
Location
Thomasville, PA US
1/5/2017 10:02am
Schenk829 wrote:
Thank you, a lot of great info on here, It has been a private track for many years, to farm field, to cow pasture and now...
Thank you, a lot of great info on here, It has been a private track for many years, to farm field, to cow pasture and now looking to make it back to a track again. There is also room to put a decent woods loop as well as spots for camping and a pond to swim in. Also the track would be in the same location as our dealership so that and the track would be awesome for us at the shop and also for those riding! For those of you asking the location is about 10 min from Gettysburg PA.

The membership idea is what I was going with, Was looking at doing monthly memberships with limited spots, with a possibility of "open" practice days.

Thanks!
Awesome, we are pretty close to Gettysburg. Please keep us updated on what's happening with the track, would love to come rip! just so I know about where it is, what's the name of the shop?
Kenny Lingus
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1085
Joined
9/9/2016
Location
Watkins Glen, NY US
1/5/2017 10:16am Edited Date/Time 1/5/2017 10:37am
Before you can even worry about charging, first make sure of local zoning laws. Everywhere is different. No sense in worrying about charging if you can't even build a track. If you can build a track, noise, dust, erosion and neighbors will be the biggest issues to deal with as far as something that will get you shut down.

Charging money opens up a whole different set of problems and liabilities. Like some said, a lawyer would be a good idea. You may be able to get away with the suggested donation route. You don't charge, just a suggested donation. If somebody doesn't donate, next time the track just happens to be closed or full when they come back.

Be diligent on your research and don't assume anything. It could come back on you.
mxtech1
Posts
1968
Joined
7/21/2011
Location
Galesburg, IL US
1/5/2017 10:19am
Unless you are committed to a "public track" as a full time job, don't do it. Too many ways to get sued and lose your ass.

Once you start charging money, things become extremely complicated.

If you do it, you need to protect with insurance which is difficult to find and expensive. I know one of the stipulations of insurance on land with a track is that the track must be fully fenced for safety.

Keep it private for you and your friends, you'll thank me later.
mxtech1
Posts
1968
Joined
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Location
Galesburg, IL US
1/5/2017 10:23am Edited Date/Time 1/5/2017 10:42am
Hallzilla wrote:
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get...
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get an attorney to draft something up for you that will protect everything. Also pretty good idea to make it an LLC. Keep it separate from the personal. Having said that i'm a motocrosser and not very smart. Smile
Schenk829 wrote:
There is a track close to here that does that, they hold AMA races too so I wasn't sure if they had an insurance that covered...
There is a track close to here that does that, they hold AMA races too so I wasn't sure if they had an insurance that covered both, Im pretty sure on race day insurance was thru AMA but not 100%. Also the track has been around since the 40's so who knows what has been grandfathered in.
For what you are suggesting, a membership club should be setup as a not-for-profit organization instead of an LLC. There are many benefits in doing so - you can research online.

I have been involved with a club like this for most of my life. In 30 years, many people have been injured, through normal riding, while on the grounds. In all of those years, the club was sued two different times. One proved to be no fault of the club, and the other was a ruling against the club. In the latter, the club's, at that time, insurance company dropped us. It was very, very difficult to find another insurance company who would cover the club after just being sued for a large sum of money, which the club's insurance company paid out. It is important to mention that in both lawsuits, the injured members had signed all appropriate liability release forms prior to the injuries. Furthermore, it seemed to me that in both lawsuits, it was the insurance companies of the individual's who pressed very very hard for legal action against the club so that they could be reimbursed their large payouts for the medical claims.

Event insurance is supplemental to property/liability insurance for the property. The event insurance is not a product of the AMA. Most event insurance also mandates that an EMS crew with ambulance is onsite throughout the day.
MotoX85
Posts
2199
Joined
10/9/2011
Location
Centralia, IL US
1/5/2017 10:26am
Hallzilla wrote:
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get...
Set it up as a membership club. Each person who comes in the gate becomes a club member. I pretty sure you can't sue yourself. Get an attorney to draft something up for you that will protect everything. Also pretty good idea to make it an LLC. Keep it separate from the personal. Having said that i'm a motocrosser and not very smart. Smile
This, put the land under membership control with you as president, make everyone pay membership fee, even one day or annual, and as owner/member, you cannot sue yourself
Kstud756
Posts
8
Joined
1/5/2017
Location
Brownsburg, IN US
1/5/2017 10:27am Edited Date/Time 1/5/2017 10:57am
First post on vital, read this forum often and this topic actually enticed me to create a screen name and join the frey...

Here's food for thought,
I love the idea of people wanting to convert their land into a new place to ride, unfortunately the legal world is changing fast when it comes to liabilities, more over, medical expense recoveries. My background was initially in HR and Finance and now in land development as I own several businesses and have a lot of liability insurance to cover my backside should a customer or his/her "appointees" enter our property and become injured.

It's thru all this that I have learned about a nasty little secret that most insured people don't know about... As a person/rider who has medical or life insurance, and taken all the right steps to sign the release and protect the land owner and/or track where you ride in case you get injured or a spectator gets injured, you are still a huge liability risk to the land owner. The details get very ugly if you read the fine print on most insurance policies, typically it's called a letter or agreement of subrogation. Subrogation is the insurance company's right to go after recouping losses from a lawsuit and/or medical expenses. The nastiest part of all, you can't amend this clause out of the policy, if you try, they simply won't issue a policy to someone without this clause.
The scenerio is this... A guy is racing at a track and gets crossed up and his bike hits a spectator. The spectator is lifelined out of the property, has many diagnostic tests, and ultimately is fine. He signed the track release, the rider signed the track release, and the track was a club membership. Well the insurance company has now incurred a loss of many thousands of dollars, and thru subrogation will file suit on the party that has the highest ability to pay which in most cases is the land owner and not the rider. This is where the insurance companies have side stepped the "club membership" loophole, since they are not a member of the club, they do have the ability to sue anyone in this scenerio to recoup their loss and in which case, all the liability releases and membership fees become worthless to the land owner. In other words, the rider, the land owner, and the injured spectator can all walk into the hearing and testify that not only did they know the risks and join the club and don't wish to file suit... the insurance company is within it's legal rights to file suit on any of those parties behalf in order to recoup it's losses, all thanks to the letter of subrogation.

Obviouly state to state, laws vary greatly and certain states are much more friendly than others. I have no clue about PA, or any other state than Indiana frankly and even then, I'm not an attorney so don't take my info as such. However, there is a way for land owners and businesses to fight the subrogation clauses and that is thru indemnification agreement (hold Harmless agreements) in which the rider and spectator agrees to hold the track harmless in all aspects and in turn agrees to take the responsibility upon themselves. There's no free lunch however, if the same scenerio as above happens but the track has a indemnity agreement, the insurance company could be suing the rider and possibly even the injured (yes his own insurance company is suing him) spectator himself.

At the end of the day, liability in business is the greatest unknown. Sorry this got a little long winded, hopefully provides some insight and can help you protect your property and business if you chose to proceed. I had a really cool old friend when I first started my own business and his advice was simple, "don't ever try and save money on condoms or attorneys, in the end it costs you"

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