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In the end I agree, that single piston front disc brake on the Kawi, means nothing. If they don't change their way of promoting they will continue to loose support.
Jason who started this post with his three year quest to have AHRMA include 1983 & 1984 Kawasaki’s qualify to race with 1984 Yamaha’s and Suzuki’s has decided to become part of the solution. He is running for the AHRMA board of directors, and needs our support.
Please consider voting for JASON COLON as an Eastern regional director.
I have had the opportunity to get to know Jason over the past couple of years. From a random meeting at an MX track, to having dinner together on the road. And then along with another racing buddy we trekked 1,200 miles from Ohio to Houston last fall for the Rio Bravo AHRMA race. Jason and I have also been working together extensively for almost 8 months to develop, plan and schedule the new AHRMA Labor Day event next year at Red Bud.
Jason is uniquely qualified. While I know him as an MX racer he has participated in Cross Country, and Road race events with AHRMA as a member for almost 20 years. He is an active member of the AHRMA Great Lakes Region.
AHRMA’s future is dependent on leadership, and vision, Jason is up to the task.
There is a ballot in the magazine that you received last week. Please complete the ballot and mail it TODAY, before it get lost or forgotten. If we want to develop and ensure the future, we all need to participate in the process.
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It's Christmas time people, lighten up and enjoy yourselves out there. Not every word typed on a forum is done so with the intent to offend others.
All this talk about technology is pretty much BS. Most of us are just fatter, slower versions of our previous selves anyway and "new" 40-year-old technology isn't going to make any difference in that regard. Yeah, I would rather eat pizza and drink beer than train, but I still want to enjoy racing the bike I had when I was 12 without the MAN taking my fun away from me.
And the fact is AHRMA officials with full knowledge let Kawasaki's with disk brakes race at Unadilla each of the last two years, so why the big fuss.
From the outside looking in, it makes 0 sense to not have the limiting factor be the years.
What would of been said in 1983? The Kawi couldn't line up against other 1983 bikes then either?
This serious should aim to reproduce the the era, not pick and choose how it should be represented.
I'm in favor of the only limiting factor being the year.
There is nothing in my recent life that has brought more fun, excitement, new friends, new experiences than AHRMA MX. You will never regret starting to race, you will always regret stopping.
This was me last month at the AHRMA National at Rio Bravo in Houston, #29 got the holeshot....holly shi** batman.
First off let me say I do not have a horse in this race anymore. Seems like my ship has sailed after being hurt in Gainsville in 2 consecutive years, five feet apart. Gatorback does not like me...
A short story... My first AHRMA race was a few moons ago in Ocala. That winter I built a Suzuki 500 & a 250 to assault the old dudes. The 250 was magic, except the VERY poor front brake. The 500 I didn't even try to race it because I felt it was a underpowered pig. With a VERY poor front brake. After winning my class on the 250, I promptly sold both bikes. Then began my love affair with CR's, but that is another story.
Anywhoo, personally I would not care if a disked Kaw lined up beside me. But not for the reason that you might think. If AHRMA allows the disk in the class, this means that I can, and would, "make period modifications" to my drum CR. I would mount up a set of 87 forks & disk and go racing. Not only me but most others would. THIS is why (my guess) that the board keeps voting it down.
Yes, AHRMA is a bunch of old fogies (some, not all) that are trying to keep the vintage scene alive. The problem is the peeps that want to race these machines, with 4 inches of suspension, are too old to race anymore. AHRMA needs to attract new, younger blood, to stay in the game, such as peeps under 50ish. Hence pre modern class is being tried. I hope they, (AHRMA), can survive. The economy is not helping either. That, too, is another topic for another time.
I am building a killer 83 RM250 with a 87 front end. C'mon AHRMA allow me back in the fold, LOL
Stay warm folks,
Stan
#415
You are correct to a point. That point being is that it is been said for many moons that "anybody can go fast down a straight. The race is won in the corners".
Now, if I can hold that throttle on a tad longer coming down the straight and brake a little later, you, the person on a drum has very little chance of contesting for my position, regardless of what speed that we are traveling and given the skill sets are relatively close. That is a fact of life with the disk vs. drum debate. I will also say that the more that you develop your skills at moto, the more apparent that the disk comes into play. I know darn well I would be (have been) faster on a disk. Hands down. Give me a disk over drum anytime.
Stay warm,
Stan
415
Is AHMRA sanctioned by AMA or government/law?
as I understand there is local and regional clubs that have simpler(better) rules and classes, and sometimes more participants.
why don't you get together and agree about same rules/classes without AHMRA?
why not use same rules/classes as in VMXdN.
They might even listen if they have to compete with an alternative organization..
Here in Sweden we have a little different classes, but not as simple as "only model year"
a 78 Honda CR250 compete with 83 Husky CR250 in Twinshock-class, not sure the Husky have any benefits but its 5yrs difference.
On my 83 Honda cr480 I can have 87 front end with diskbrake in EVO-class, I might even get away with a Suzuki Full Floater rear end mounted on the Honda..
But if I follow the rules strictly I cant compete in Twinshock with a replica of 77 RC500 because its not a production bike, but I am not sure they would stop me if I did..
And here the 83 KX compete in EVO-class against other 83 bikes, but its in same class as a 88-89 CR..
1) Technology does matter, to some more than year, to others less. But a clear distinction needs to be made and universally enforced with a simpler set of rules. It may not be as easy as year vs. one type of technology or another. What do we want to preserve/promote? An exact replication of history, or getting more people on bikes and having a good time? They are not mutually exclusive and I'd say it is a combination of the two. As long as the rules do not give any one competitor such an advantage that makes it impossible for anyone else on the gate to win.
2) Some will look for loopholes regardless of the rules, A full floater rear end on a Honda and a late model CR front end on a Suzuki? Racers will find "creative" interpretations of the rules no matter what. This is what makes motorcycle racing awesome, there is both a machine component and rider component and both must work in harmony to gain an advantage.
However, I personally am not in favor of this sort of wholesale swapping of parts between multiple bikes. If it takes two-to-three bikes to make one racer then there are fewer bikes to go around and eventually fewer competitors as a result. Again, it's less about the technology and more about the opportunity for more people to have access. I also prefer to ride a bike with close to stock components. (I do believe in making the most of those components for a race bike: suspension internals, springs, jetting, maybe an exhaust pipe, tires, cables, etc... all help bring a bike to its potential.) This allows me to understand the good and bad points of a bike for what they were at the time. That way I can appreciate the difference in performance of newer bikes historically. This is just my view/interest, I am by no means a strict preservationist. (My original intent was to expose the hypocrisy of the KX exception in Ultima by pointing out that it is counter to the Mission Statement for AHRMA and the Ultima Class specifically, to showcase period history and the technology evolution of the bikes of that period )
3) Newer bike classes will bring more riders. The regions and the national series should align making it easier to compete at both levels in a fair way. Pre-Modern (1984-89 ish) needs to be both a regional and NATIONAL points paying class. (if this is based on technology i.e. disk or year fine, but this is critical to resolve ASAP)
3A) This topic also opens the door to discussion about the tracks we race on and how they are compatible with our machinery. I am fully aware 4" travel twin shock bikes are not too fun to ride on tracks with steep jump faces and the deep ruts and braking bumps that result from more modern long travel bikes. Scheduling, track prep, and track layout make a big difference in this regard. Working with track operators who understand this difference and are willing to work with the vintage community can allow it to be fun and safe for everyone. To me, it is great to race different bikes of different eras, as a rider it pushes me to understand how to best work with a given bike. Be it a 75, 79, 84, 88 etc. each does something different and is capable of something different. All fun and interesting in their own way and the experience of riding each of these bikes gives me a personal connection to the history of our sport.
4) AMA and AHRMA... This could the topic of a post the length of War and Peace. Suffice to say they are no longer related. AHRMA is the only organization running a Vintage NATIONAL series and it's the only one supported by AHRMA sanctioned Regional racing. As the only National level organization in the game I feel AHRMA has the best chance of unifying and improving vintage motorcycle racing across the country. (AMA VMD is a fun event overall, but the MX portion of the program is poorly planned and dangerous IMO. Not only is the track weak, but the format of the event encourages too many once a year racers on 'barn fresh bikes' willing to win or die for a winner-take-all National Championship...) I do think the AMA's vintage rules package with EVO 1,2,3 shows some promise and is much easier to understand for the majority and many local clubs have something similar.
Let the "GREEN'S" and the "RED's" play with the YELLOW bikes
All bikes MATTER
ABM
That's tee shirt worthy!
Pit Row
The solution might be something like:
Stock overall disk diameter and mount (no giant floating disks).
Stock sized MC and caliper piston sizes.
Stock sized brake pads to be used (use a stock template to insure compliance).
For example the Ultima class that we are talking about here allows Suzuki RM's up to 1984 model year. So on my 1981 Suzuki RM 125 I have upgraded the front end to a 1984 Suzuki RM250 front end. The forks increase from 37mm to 43mm and it adds a DLS front brake. But everything is legal so long as it is legal under the class rules.
There are also provisions in the basic rules to allow non brand upgrades, ie aftermarket shocks etc. and they MUST be products that were available within the time period of the specific class.
This was never intended to be a wholesale endorsement of the use of disk brakes from any era.
Regarding compliance with the rules: Consistent enforcement of the rules at all Nationals needs to be a priority IMO. Tools such as a measurement templates for brake size, suspensions travel, etc. could be used.
Other tools, such as a AHRMA supplied photo book with detailed pictures of what an eligable stock bike for a given class looks like from each manufacturer would inform tech inspectors about machines they may not be familiar with and create a baseline of knowledge.
No system is perfect, but enforcement of the rules needs to be consistent and as fair as possible. I think the great majority of racers DO NOT want to cheat. We also do not want to feel cheated by seeing our competitors allowed to get away with infractions, whether they are intentional or not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P6QshagNCY
I agree with what you have said above. It is a fact that 10-15% of any organization pulls the weight of said group. Yes Get out there and vote. That is the ONLY way rules will be changed. There are peeps on the board who will never vote a disk in. For any reason. I am surprised that the exhibition class with no rear disk actually made it to the track. I believe this year it goes "mainstream" after the trial period.
There are two points I want to make though. Point one is the classes need restructuring. If you show up at any AVERAGE national, there are many poorly attended classes. I am not going to mention any one class specifically, but when you have 3 or more classes on the line, not being stagger started, those classes have attendance problems. This issue is even worse st the local races. The national race classes should be packed, but it is not. It is time to cut the "fat" out of the programs ( vintage & post vintage).
Point two is the proposed KX disks thrown in with the drums. (PV) As I have stated I have no issue with this. BUT this will open up a Pandora's box of items to be addressed. Namely the rule that states that machines are allowed "period" modifications.
Subpoint one: It is wildly accepted that flatside carbs can be run in the ultima class when that machine never had one to begin with. The 83 RM250 had one, so this allows my 83 CR250 to run one because it was a mod done "back in the day". The RM introduced the flatside & I am allowed to put it on my 83 CR 'cause it was available at that time on another machine.
Subpoint two. You can talk all you want to about allowing the KX into the Ultima class and JUST THE KX can have a disk. Just like the above illustration on the flatside, as soon as you open up the class to the KX disk, that "period" modification will be allowed on other machines in the ultima class. No way to stop that with the rules as they state today. And no way can you just say ONLY the KX can have a disk in the Ultima class, as you would have a mutiny of biblical proportions. Just like the flatside, I want that mod on my CR.
Ok, so I have a third point. You loosely stated that the AHRMA tech crew could measure the disks etc., to keep only those disks that are "allowed" in the class to be in line with the proposed rule change. I have been to many AHRMA nats in my day (PV), and the only thing I have seen them check on my machine is do both brakes work, grips don't slip & that the pegs fold up & return. I think a time or two someone got freaky technical & checked to see if I had slop in the wheel bearings. I am NOT bagging on the tech crew. They have an hour or so to tech in 300 or so machines before practice. Now you want them to measure a disk for compliance? Not to mention if someone has a disk cover on. That is utter suicide to the tech person(s).
I will be the first to let the KX's in the Ultima class. I have no issue with that. My main point on the disk debate that once you open that box you have to let disks to be put on machines that did not come stock with disks. No way to stop that. Just make sure you are prepared for it to happen at tech. Because I am headed to tech with a 83 CR250 with a disk & there will not be a thing AHRMA can do about it (with the current rules in place). I, as well as some others, do not have a problem with this. It will be the competitors that do not have this "period modification" that will be filling out protest papers faster than Opra can down a dozen of Crispy Kremes.
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