Matthes on 250 class

resetjet
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11/30/2016 5:32pm
All heats during day. Three mains 10 lap. Three classes 450sx. 250sx and privateer class.

And/or riders can only compete in one discipline(sx or mx)
yak651
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11/30/2016 5:33pm
kkawboy14 wrote:
How in the world does splitting the series help the privateers?
TeamGreen wrote:
8 races in the East 8 races in the West 1 Final at Vegas That's an 8 race series on a regional basis. Versus the 450s...
8 races in the East
8 races in the West
1 Final at Vegas
That's an 8 race series on a regional basis.

Versus the 450s that travel the ENTIRE 17 race series thru-out the ENTIRE U.S.A.
kkawboy14 wrote:
How does that help the privateers?
I usually agree with pretty much everything you post, but i'm not sure why you don't get how having less races, concentrated in a "region" with "half" of the good riders stuck in the other region wouldn't help a privateer make the show?
KirkChandler
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11/30/2016 5:41pm
Simple solution if you follow the Nascar model. (Xfinity races Saturday/Cup races Sunday)

250s race on Friday Night with a 450 timed qualifying. TV is on Fox Sports 2. Anyone can race. 2 hour program. Smaller purse. East and West.

Declare which championship you are racing for (450/250W/250E).

450s race Saturday night. TV is on Fox Sports 1 or Fox. 2 hour TV program. Anyone can race. Top 250 guys might race both.

Two nights of ticket sales. Two nights of Supercross on TV.
Awood
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11/30/2016 6:23pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 6:24pm
With ticket sales already shitty due almost $50 nosebleeds, i think you'll see a lot more empty stadiums. 1 night racing is way better for the spectator. What are you concerned about? time?

Also, Off topic, when will Feld get their heads out of their ass and run 450 heats first again... Can we talk about them doing that, what, one time? then never running it again? They ran the correct format for ONE RACE, A1 14 i think, where they did 450 heats, 250 heats, 450 semis, 250 semis, 450 LCQ, mains. Now they do 250s first and fuck over the guys in 450 semi 2 going into the LCQ.

The Shop

DonM
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11/30/2016 6:31pm
Awood wrote:
With ticket sales already shitty due almost $50 nosebleeds, i think you'll see a lot more empty stadiums. 1 night racing is way better for the...
With ticket sales already shitty due almost $50 nosebleeds, i think you'll see a lot more empty stadiums. 1 night racing is way better for the spectator. What are you concerned about? time?

Also, Off topic, when will Feld get their heads out of their ass and run 450 heats first again... Can we talk about them doing that, what, one time? then never running it again? They ran the correct format for ONE RACE, A1 14 i think, where they did 450 heats, 250 heats, 450 semis, 250 semis, 450 LCQ, mains. Now they do 250s first and fuck over the guys in 450 semi 2 going into the LCQ.
They run a fucking circus....you never bring the elephants out first....For the record I agree with you Wink
ML512
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11/30/2016 6:37pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 6:38pm
haydos25 wrote:
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with...
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with the best riders they can buy who give them the best chance of winning?

For diehards of the sport we see 450 as the premier class and 250's as a stepping stone, but the cheques for a YZ250F cash just aswell as the ones coming in for a 450. Why wouldn't the bean counters at HQ want people to think they have the best small bore product to sell.

Maybe the answer is a salary cap. 75k per year plus 15k bonus if you win a title maximum. You wanna earn big dollars move to the 450 class. Maybe the manufacturers will have a little more cash left over to throw at extra bikes/riders if they're not spending 200 grand per rider on there factory lites program.

Whether its policeable is another question but its an option
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models.

Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out are insane. Most of the riders wouldn't be able to cover costs for the year if they don't live near the team; practice mechanics, personal travel not paid for by the team, trainer costs, practicing costs, insurance, etc...

Secondly, there are only 22 spots in a 450 main event, there aren't going to be many rides beyond that no matter how much you want there to be...
Crush
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11/30/2016 6:37pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 6:39pm
Silliest part of our sport right now is to enter in to the ENTRY class you need to spend gazillions more to be competitive than the BIGDOG class.

RETARDED.

Exasperated by the fact you have half the show, twice the competition and less support. How the feck does that make sense?!
wb173
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11/30/2016 6:41pm
How will the classes be split when electric bikes take over?

wb173
Rexblaster
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11/30/2016 7:19pm
I think the thing is that a sponsor would rather have someone finish 2nd in the 250 class instead of 10th in the 450s. Think about it, no ones gonna choose 10th over 2nd even if the 2nd was in the "lites" class. Theres just as much exposure for a 250 rider vs a 450 rider.
Awood
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11/30/2016 7:26pm
If you make the classes even then it wont be the "entry" class
avidchimp
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11/30/2016 8:08pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 8:10pm
Awood wrote:
With ticket sales already shitty due almost $50 nosebleeds, i think you'll see a lot more empty stadiums. 1 night racing is way better for the...
With ticket sales already shitty due almost $50 nosebleeds, i think you'll see a lot more empty stadiums. 1 night racing is way better for the spectator. What are you concerned about? time?

Also, Off topic, when will Feld get their heads out of their ass and run 450 heats first again... Can we talk about them doing that, what, one time? then never running it again? They ran the correct format for ONE RACE, A1 14 i think, where they did 450 heats, 250 heats, 450 semis, 250 semis, 450 LCQ, mains. Now they do 250s first and fuck over the guys in 450 semi 2 going into the LCQ.
The pricing versus actual racing value has gotten way askew. Remember when it was just the racing that got you excited and not 2+ hours of sponsor mentions and fireworks/flames? I remember stadiums being packed back then. Sold out double headers even.

And this is barely even touching on the fact that the factory's have to justify their investment in the amateur scene, which isn't going to happen if all the "good, title" rides are in the 450 class. I remember my friends getting bikes/parts allowance and travel money to go to the big races back in the day (late 70's 80's), hence the East/West 125 deal. Now some of these kids are in the low 6 figure income range before they even turn pro.

This is one the problems, I.M.H.O.
11/30/2016 8:20pm
haydos25 wrote:
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with...
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with the best riders they can buy who give them the best chance of winning?

For diehards of the sport we see 450 as the premier class and 250's as a stepping stone, but the cheques for a YZ250F cash just aswell as the ones coming in for a 450. Why wouldn't the bean counters at HQ want people to think they have the best small bore product to sell.

Maybe the answer is a salary cap. 75k per year plus 15k bonus if you win a title maximum. You wanna earn big dollars move to the 450 class. Maybe the manufacturers will have a little more cash left over to throw at extra bikes/riders if they're not spending 200 grand per rider on there factory lites program.

Whether its policeable is another question but its an option
ML512 wrote:
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models. Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out...
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models.

Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out are insane. Most of the riders wouldn't be able to cover costs for the year if they don't live near the team; practice mechanics, personal travel not paid for by the team, trainer costs, practicing costs, insurance, etc...

Secondly, there are only 22 spots in a 450 main event, there aren't going to be many rides beyond that no matter how much you want there to be...
Michael, your second point that there are only 22 gates, why, was there not once 40 gates?

Maybe it's time for a bigger field, i know i would like that.
hvaughn88
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11/30/2016 8:28pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 8:29pm
haydos25 wrote:
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with...
Manufacturers sell just as many 250's as they do 450's im sure, perhaps more. Why wouldn't they want to showcase them on the same platform with the best riders they can buy who give them the best chance of winning?

For diehards of the sport we see 450 as the premier class and 250's as a stepping stone, but the cheques for a YZ250F cash just aswell as the ones coming in for a 450. Why wouldn't the bean counters at HQ want people to think they have the best small bore product to sell.

Maybe the answer is a salary cap. 75k per year plus 15k bonus if you win a title maximum. You wanna earn big dollars move to the 450 class. Maybe the manufacturers will have a little more cash left over to throw at extra bikes/riders if they're not spending 200 grand per rider on there factory lites program.

Whether its policeable is another question but its an option
ML512 wrote:
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models. Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out...
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models.

Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out are insane. Most of the riders wouldn't be able to cover costs for the year if they don't live near the team; practice mechanics, personal travel not paid for by the team, trainer costs, practicing costs, insurance, etc...

Secondly, there are only 22 spots in a 450 main event, there aren't going to be many rides beyond that no matter how much you want there to be...
I'm fully aware I'm gonna get completely skewered for what I'm about to say, but I'm ok with all the money being put towards the top 22 guys in the 450 class. At this level, I wanna see the best of the best, getting paid the best of the best. If that means some of the privateers get clipped...well...I'm sorry. Don't get me wrong, selfishly I'm grateful that we have them, because they are actually some of my favorite riders to follow, but when the level is supposed to be elite, it should be treated as such.

Go ahead guys, pour it on.
Johnny Depp
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11/30/2016 8:47pm Edited Date/Time 11/30/2016 8:48pm
No one is owed a job. No one provides one for me. This sport should be about entertainment 1st, not employment.

The show is confusing and redundant. 250's & 450's is like V8's and V6's. They look, run and sound the same.
We might as well have a class for left and right handed riders.

Quit trimming around the edges and make a real change.

1 class any bike. 4 quarterfinals, 2 semfinals, 1 main. Pro.

Amateur 125's max 18 yrs. 4 regions.
Exhibition Super Minis 2 races per rider.
Matt Wozney
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11/30/2016 9:31pm
I've always wanted to see a format done up for with the top 40 of ALL combined fastest lap times race a featured premiere class - Don't matter what bike size (this is slightly more focused for SX than MX). Bigger purse, more TV time, and overall, more incentive to qualify into the higher paying class.
Calihusky
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11/30/2016 10:25pm
You can say that the teams or the manufacturers or Feld should put money here or not put money there but there's a reason why they invest they way they do. Manufacturers want to showcase their 250 bikes. You can't tell them they can't pay a top rider top dollar to win for them. Mitch sells Pro circuit hop up items that are geared toward 250 bikes. If he wanted to have a 450 team he would. I'm not sure telling him to support a team he doesn't want to would end up positive for the sport. Yes you could take 250s off TV and make it unattractive for Mitch to support but no offense the best racing is currently in 250s.
Should there be changes? Of course but I don't think forcing certain entities to do things is the answer. I think Feld should have higher payouts for both classes. I think it would be in their best interest and in the interest of the sport to do so. However, I don't believe there should be a law that says they have to pay X amount.
haydos25
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11/30/2016 10:30pm
ML512 wrote:
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models. Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out...
The manufacturers sell more 450s than 250s by a decent amount, and that's just in motocross models.

Second off, the salary cap prices your throw out are insane. Most of the riders wouldn't be able to cover costs for the year if they don't live near the team; practice mechanics, personal travel not paid for by the team, trainer costs, practicing costs, insurance, etc...

Secondly, there are only 22 spots in a 450 main event, there aren't going to be many rides beyond that no matter how much you want there to be...
I don't have the luxury of being an insider, what I do know is at the moment the manufacturers are obviously seeing a return on the investment in the lites class, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Fine up the salary cap, I don't care, my point was the principal not the amount. Besides that, if they can't afford a trainer? don't buy one and train yourself. need to live near your employer? Move!! Everyone else in the world does. Or if you wanna get paid the big dollars, do better and step out of the salary controlled class.

Something needs to change when champions are pointing out of a class and being forced to move to another class where there is no money or rides. Deano, Mookie, bogle, weimer would all have paid lites riders if teams were allowed to take em instead of guys like Harrison, Oldenburg, decotis etc. The best riders should be out there no matter what the class
Mit12
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11/30/2016 10:33pm
I think that they need to have the 250s race in arenas and the 450s race in stadiums. Seperate the stepping stone class from the premier class. The way it is now why would the manufactures want to hire more 450 riders at somewhere around twice the rider salary when they can get the more exposure with 2 250 riders? All 250 teams have at least 4 250 riders and only 2 450 guys. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand why there are not enough 450 rides available to riders that point out of the 250 class. The fact that Malcom is without a ride after winning the 250 championship is a huge black eye to the series. Hell he can not even defend his #1 plate! If I was a top 250 rider like say Forkner I would make sure that I had in my contract that if I was to win the 250 championship that I would have at least one year on a 450 guaranteed.
Motodave15
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11/30/2016 11:05pm
Mit12 wrote:
I think that they need to have the 250s race in arenas and the 450s race in stadiums. Seperate the stepping stone class from the premier...
I think that they need to have the 250s race in arenas and the 450s race in stadiums. Seperate the stepping stone class from the premier class. The way it is now why would the manufactures want to hire more 450 riders at somewhere around twice the rider salary when they can get the more exposure with 2 250 riders? All 250 teams have at least 4 250 riders and only 2 450 guys. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to understand why there are not enough 450 rides available to riders that point out of the 250 class. The fact that Malcom is without a ride after winning the 250 championship is a huge black eye to the series. Hell he can not even defend his #1 plate! If I was a top 250 rider like say Forkner I would make sure that I had in my contract that if I was to win the 250 championship that I would have at least one year on a 450 guaranteed.
With that, you would turn the 250fs into the premier class and most spectacular

because you get way more action in 250f's and more drama.. which would sellout those little arenas asap.


you would not sell out a stadium with 450s alone because after the halfway point... somebody would have the title in a strangle hold and the races become boring as paint drying

color me crazy, but the 250fs have been way more exciting unless james is doing some wicked shit in the 450 class.. or somebody is actually putting up a fight like roczen did for a rounds
11/30/2016 11:56pm
Pembroke36 wrote:
I like the idea of the 250's being 17 races as well. But then there is the "too many races" argument. But I still don't get...
I like the idea of the 250's being 17 races as well. But then there is the "too many races" argument. But I still don't get why a rider signs a guy and he has to ride both mx and sx. Why can't there just be sx riders and mx riders and treat it like the two different sports that it is? That would definitely giver more riders jobs and they can focus on their series all year. I know mx riders will get paid less but not all sports are paid equal anyways.
Motocross wouldn't exist anymore
mmcmx
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12/1/2016 12:04am
Its not a support class.
kkawboy14
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12/1/2016 12:37am
TeamGreen wrote:
8 races in the East 8 races in the West 1 Final at Vegas That's an 8 race series on a regional basis. Versus the 450s...
8 races in the East
8 races in the West
1 Final at Vegas
That's an 8 race series on a regional basis.

Versus the 450s that travel the ENTIRE 17 race series thru-out the ENTIRE U.S.A.
kkawboy14 wrote:
How does that help the privateers?
yak651 wrote:
I usually agree with pretty much everything you post, but i'm not sure why you don't get how having less races, concentrated in a "region" with...
I usually agree with pretty much everything you post, but i'm not sure why you don't get how having less races, concentrated in a "region" with "half" of the good riders stuck in the other region wouldn't help a privateer make the show?
I was curious how they felt it helps the privateer if that's the reason for the switch.

I get that the top 10 can only ride 1 series but every other privateer can still ride both, unless that has changed?
kkawboy14
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12/1/2016 12:42am
I like watching the 250s and 450s on the same night because it's cool seeing the 450s go twice as fast as the little bikes on the same track....
kkawboy14
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12/1/2016 12:44am
No one is owed a job. No one provides one for me. This sport should be about entertainment 1st, not employment. The show is confusing and...
No one is owed a job. No one provides one for me. This sport should be about entertainment 1st, not employment.

The show is confusing and redundant. 250's & 450's is like V8's and V6's. They look, run and sound the same.
We might as well have a class for left and right handed riders.

Quit trimming around the edges and make a real change.

1 class any bike. 4 quarterfinals, 2 semfinals, 1 main. Pro.

Amateur 125's max 18 yrs. 4 regions.
Exhibition Super Minis 2 races per rider.
If they aren't guaranteed a 450 place then they shouldn't be booted out of the 250s, in my opinion.
Turbojez
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12/1/2016 1:51am
tprice07 wrote:
The Lites class should not be a factory supported endeavor. Now I am ignorant to the cost of running a team but it sure seams like...
The Lites class should not be a factory supported endeavor.

Now I am ignorant to the cost of running a team but it sure seams like the cost of racing 250s would be more expensive than 450s. I believe all the 250 factory teams run east and west already so it isn't eliminating travel.

Is the Lites championship really that prestigious that they are getting a return on their investment?

Is it rider salaries? In recent years some top tier 450 guys have taken no salary.

So how would we convince PC, TLD, Star and Geico to focus on 450s? Cut down the TV time for 250s.
Like this:

MX TV Schedule:
450 Intro/Parade Lap
450MX - 30 min +2
250 MX - 20 min +2
450 MX - 30 min +2

SX TV Schedule:
450 Intro/Parade Lap
450SX Main 1
250SX Main
450SX Main 2

I'll get ripped apart for this but anyhow. While I love watching as much MX SX as possible...the general public is not going to watch 4 hours or motocross. 3/4 of the country isn't going to stay up until midnight to watch a supercross race.

Without appealing to a broader base we will never get major outside sponsors. Without these outside sponsors the sport will not grow to the extent that it could. That means those awesome 250 champs are going to sit without pay or without a ride. Do we really want our athletes living off welfare?

Racing on TV has to be entertainment 100% of the time. Every time the bikes are on the track (on TV) it has to be for money and points. General public does not care about qualifying. They don't care about LCQs. We can still have live coverage on the internet. Let GoPro, Amsoil or Lucas sponsor that.

With shorter TV time, we can get better time slots. That means more exposure. Don't let people tell you the reason we don't have outside sponsors is because the bike isn't a BILLBOARD. We aren't NASCAR. We need to compare ourselves to UFC and NFL. The same people that like to watch someones face get bashed in will love SX and MX. I guess I missed the Budweiser logo on the jerseys of all those football players. Sure they have Nike or Underarmor. If we can grow the exposure of the sport through entertainment value...then those shrouds will be worth 10x as much.

/End Rant
I agree with you, stock 250's nowadays are at least as fast as factory 125's a few years back. 250's became way to "pro". Barely any place for privateer in those ranks, because all the spots are filled with factory supported 250 riders. And let's not even start the conversation on factory 250's engine package vs. privateers' weak-ass-motor. Are there any regulations as to how many riders can a team have under it's tent or can they possibly stack half of the field with their riders given that they had enough money?
mpy
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12/1/2016 2:21am
I also think there should be a bigger difference between the 450 and the 250 class. The 450's should be the "premier" class, but how to achieve this? Well, getting national points for 250 SX is a bad idea, they should get rid of this. This would a very small change, but at least symbolically it would work.

Even though I hate crazy rules like F1 has, but what about limiting the costs somehow for the 250 teams. If there's less sponsorship money needed (lower budget for the teams) in the 250s, maybe more money would go into the 450 class. Maybe some limitations to the engine and suspension. A maximum amount of engines for the whole season?

But also how to market the 450 class as the premier class? A solution is to make that class more desirable for riders, teams & sponsors. No reason to cut down the 250 class, but instead boost the 450's somehow.

downard254
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12/1/2016 2:35am
Well, I haven't read the entire 4 pages here, but I see the 250 class as being almost equal, but only on the national MX scene. In SX, my feel is that it's a 2nd tier class. I also think pushing the supporting teams up to the 450 class will get more teams to drop out. As mentioned earlier, only 22 make the main, and there will be a lot more top level riders and their teams sitting out the nights show. How long will that last before the teams say f it and just drop out.

I had mentioned a while back that it would be interesting if they had a rules change that said no internal engine mods, bolt on mods only. It's no secret that top level teams dump a ton of money into their motors that give them a HP advantage over lower teams and privateers. I think any time you have a class where every ounce of power can be used, and sometimes not having enough power, you really see the talent in the riders ability come out.
freex708
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12/1/2016 2:45am
Right now (in my opinion) the 250 format works perfect.More money for the riders, more riders as well, less injuryies and more exciting for the people..
The problem is the 450...Why not change the format like the other.More factory spots and the most important less injuries and more healthy riders when the outdoors start. Ah! And makeba grand finally in Vegas.
Pd/ I loved wacthing Johnny O' in that 125 and of course bubba in that kawi.
Pirate421
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12/1/2016 3:46am Edited Date/Time 12/1/2016 3:49am
I love the 450 class riders but hate the racing. The last few years I just watch the 250 main and then after half the 450 main it's pretty much over. Follow the leader the whole race. The 450s don't really allow mistakes, get your timing off by a hair just seat bounce and Braap it over the triple. Back in the day with the smaller two strokes forget it, you were rolling that jump. The $$ and equipment is crazy but jump fest mixed with 450s is boring AF. Changing the format of the races won't change that either.

I would like to see more of the top 20 going at it, I thought I'd like it when they brought back the semis but I'm not sure that has helped. The monster cup with the top guys racing the whole night I feel would keep the casual fan engaged more. It's easier to follow than heat,semi LCQ and main. Too many riders to keep track of.
BobPA
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12/1/2016 4:37am
tprice07 wrote:
Interestingly enough, I hadn't read your article when I wrote my little rant above... Looks like we agree on most things. There are a few things...
Interestingly enough, I hadn't read your article when I wrote my little rant above...

Looks like we agree on most things.

There are a few things that I see, maybe, differently than you:

1. There is a difference between growth in the industry vs growth in the actual sport.
- To grow the industry (sell more bikes, gear, goggles, etc) you have to have more local races and places to ride. A lot of great places have either gone under or been shut down for various reasons.
- To grow the sport (sell more Tickets, better sponsors, more viewers/listeners) you have to entertain and inspire interest.

2. We are not, nor will we ever be NASCAR. I hate that the sport is even compared to it. Why? Because I am a part of the mx/sx demographic and I absolutely hate NASCAR. 4 hours of vroom vroom vroom around an oval track is horse crap.

Step back and look at our sport as an outsider. Look at Nascar. Now look at UFC. Take the "athletes". Put Ken Roczen next to Tony Stewart or Jimmy Johnson. Look similar? Now take and put Roczen next to Connor McGregor. Any resemblance in physique? How about intensity? I know Nascar and gruely and takes a lot of endurance...but do you see the driver physically maneuvering the car? Now in UFC do you see athletes actually using their athleticism? How about SX/MX? Of course.

Right now, what does UFC have that we don't? A show. Entertainment value. They aren't showing brackets or tournaments. They are showing the action. That is what we have to do. Show the action.

So how do we become the next UFC? Associate with it. Mock it if you have to. Get Roczen calling McGregor a pussy. I don't really care. In UFC they have man vs man. In SX/MX we have man vs man vs machine. Create and showcase story lines...the Bowers/Webb thing was interesting to a lot of people. Pieck punching Friese got more attention than Dungey winning the most boring championship ever. Let the riders race. What did UFC do that boxing didn't? Everything. Action everywhere. When UFC came out it was the boxing match we all wanted to see but could because of stupid rules.

MX/SX can be the same. Right now Nascar is Boxing and SX/MX can be UFC.

So you want drama and story lines like WWE?

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