Race gas which one?

mwssquad827
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I know there was a recent thread about this but it didn't answer all my questions. I ran Sunoco 110 cut with non ethanol 91, in my 15 kawi 450. Practice 1st kick started, Moto 1 3-4 kicks, 2nd Moto it was a 10-15 kicks to start! It ran awesome the whole day when racing!! So my question is was it the gas? My buddy says switch to vp u4.4 as Sunoco is trash! It's also a lot cheaper than vp.


Ps I'm getting my valves checked today by the dealer but they said it was also the gas, cuz its leaded!

Pss I'm new to forum so I'll say it myself STFU newbie
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The988
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8/4/2016 10:55am
U4.4 I've heard is hard on your piston. I ran about 10 gallons of it then switched back to VPR. If it's getting harder and harder to start sounds like your valves are starting to go
mwssquad827
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8/4/2016 10:59am
Ya it was time to recheck valves per the dealers service schedule but it started 1-2 kicks before that.
mxb2
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8/4/2016 11:07am
I know there was a recent thread about this but it didn't answer all my questions. I ran Sunoco 110 cut with non ethanol 91, in...
I know there was a recent thread about this but it didn't answer all my questions. I ran Sunoco 110 cut with non ethanol 91, in my 15 kawi 450. Practice 1st kick started, Moto 1 3-4 kicks, 2nd Moto it was a 10-15 kicks to start! It ran awesome the whole day when racing!! So my question is was it the gas? My buddy says switch to vp u4.4 as Sunoco is trash! It's also a lot cheaper than vp.


Ps I'm getting my valves checked today by the dealer but they said it was also the gas, cuz its leaded!

Pss I'm new to forum so I'll say it myself STFU newbie
Vp t4,. Stock motor,mapping. Remap u4.4,pro6,mr12, or renegade mx4,sx4 sx4+.
Team Ideal
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8/4/2016 11:48am
U4.4 and VPR are both leaded also. you don't have to remap for U4.4, but if you want the most gains from it you will benefit from a good map to match the fuel. the lead is not hurting your valves, the dealer has no idea what they're talking about if they're telling you that.

on a side note we've ran Sunoco and VP both, Sunoco is not trash but IMO VP is a better fuel.

The Shop

Skidaddle
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8/4/2016 11:56am
Unless you are a Pro, run 91 gas.

Turn throttle farther than 1/2 way. You'll be surprised. Also, kids on 85s wont pass you so easily.

Gary Bailey used to teach students that.
mwssquad827
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8/4/2016 11:58am
Team Ideal wrote:
U4.4 and VPR are both leaded also. you don't have to remap for U4.4, but if you want the most gains from it you will benefit...
U4.4 and VPR are both leaded also. you don't have to remap for U4.4, but if you want the most gains from it you will benefit from a good map to match the fuel. the lead is not hurting your valves, the dealer has no idea what they're talking about if they're telling you that.

on a side note we've ran Sunoco and VP both, Sunoco is not trash but IMO VP is a better fuel.
Ya they said it gums up my o2 sensor and the higher octane makes the mapping all weird?!?! They also said the lead fuel is good for older model valves but the new machines it's not worth it?!? I dunno I don't really need to run race gas as I'm not fast enough to need more from a 450 but I was told by a old racer buddy I hang with that the race gas burns cleaner and more efficient and will help your motor last longer. Probably say screw it and run non ethanol 91 for my vet class ass
kkawboy14
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8/4/2016 11:58am
T4
mwssquad827
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8/4/2016 12:00pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Unless you are a Pro, run 91 gas. Turn throttle farther than 1/2 way. You'll be surprised. Also, kids on 85s wont pass you so easily...
Unless you are a Pro, run 91 gas.

Turn throttle farther than 1/2 way. You'll be surprised. Also, kids on 85s wont pass you so easily.

Gary Bailey used to teach students that.
mwssquad827
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8/4/2016 12:03pm
Skidaddle wrote:
Unless you are a Pro, run 91 gas. Turn throttle farther than 1/2 way. You'll be surprised. Also, kids on 85s wont pass you so easily...
Unless you are a Pro, run 91 gas.

Turn throttle farther than 1/2 way. You'll be surprised. Also, kids on 85s wont pass you so easily.

Gary Bailey used to teach students that.
kkawboy14
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8/4/2016 12:07pm
The high octane burns to slow and cold unless you have raised the compression
Crash11
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8/4/2016 12:13pm
There are so many mis-informed people in this industry when it comes to octane rating of the fuel they use. If your engine is still stock, then use the exact octane recommended by the manufacturer. If it is modified, then you will have to do a little trial and error to find out what octane you can get away with before you get knock. You always want the lowest octane you can get that avoids knock. Higher octanes burn slower, so you are actually sacrificing a little power for nothing.

Also, the octane # on the pump is not always what you go by. If your manufacturer specs an octane that is "research method" or "motor method" then you need to deviate from what it says on the pump. Pump gas octane is research + motor / 2. Research method tends to yield about 8-10 higher octane rating than motor. So 91 at the pump is about 96 research method and 86 motor method.

It's good to avoid ethanol because it can cause corrosion to fuel lines and seals.
8/4/2016 12:14pm
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat off of it. No carbon build up and crisp throttle. I run 100LL aviation fuel now for the unlimited shelf life. And it's only $36 for 10 gallons.
Calihusky
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8/4/2016 12:28pm
I've switched from pump gas to VP T4. Bike runs better and crisper. I've found pump gas is not clean and the ethanol gums things up. Only down side is cost but it's worth it to me.
CarlinoJoeVideo
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8/4/2016 12:51pm
T4 is great fuel + a full exhaust and remap is a great addition to any bike. T4 is pretty affordable within the race gas catagory.

With some of the stronger fuels like MR12 you need to drain your tank if your not riding within 3-4 days because it will eat your seals. VP says T4 can stay in the tank for 4 months.
mwssquad827
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8/4/2016 12:56pm
So can you mix 91 and t4 or no benefit at that point??
sozo
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8/4/2016 12:59pm
Jmicmoto13 wrote:
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat...
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat off of it. No carbon build up and crisp throttle. I run 100LL aviation fuel now for the unlimited shelf life. And it's only $36 for 10 gallons.
I believe this is leaded, some bikes can not take lead due to coatings on valve in valve guides...
c0ncEpT
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8/4/2016 1:04pm
I use U4.4 in my bike. With a few degrees of added timing it really makes the bike pull hard all the way to the limiter.
8/4/2016 1:08pm
I stick with 91 pump gas unless I find a station that sells Trick 101. Bike ran awesome on the trick 101 but it still runs plenty fine on 91 pump. Most of us don't need any type of race gas anyways.
Skidaddle
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8/4/2016 1:26pm
So can you mix 91 and t4 or no benefit at that point??
You can mix anything you want. It just dilutes it..

Unless a fuel is oxygenated(In California its Ethanol) whats the point? Remember U4.4E? The E meant Ethanol. Same as Pump gas. U4.4 was MTBE as the Oxygenate

I dont even think they can sell fuels with MTBE as an oxygenate in CA and many other states at all anymore for any use. Alot of other oxygenates are banned in CA also.

Keep in Mind, Ethanol doesn't gum up stuff per se, otherwise EVERY car and motorcycle on the road would be fucked up.
What alcohol does is attract water, and when it sits, thats where problems come from. The water is what causes corrosion.
Everything made since the advent of Ethanol in Fuel is meant to handle ethanol at about a 10% ratio. Flex vehicles are built to obviously handle an 85% concentration.

Any issues with it is very easily mitigated anyway.. Never had a single issue with ethanol ever on anything!




Skidaddle
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8/4/2016 1:31pm
Jmicmoto13 wrote:
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat...
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat off of it. No carbon build up and crisp throttle. I run 100LL aviation fuel now for the unlimited shelf life. And it's only $36 for 10 gallons.
sozo wrote:
I believe this is leaded, some bikes can not take lead due to coatings on valve in valve guides...
Valve seats love lead.
What 4 stroke in the world can't benefit from leaded fuel? Even when not needed, unleaded specific hardened valve seats wont say no to lead.
Zaugg
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8/4/2016 1:44pm
ETS makes pretty good fuel. Couple race teams run it because it's stable and won't boil at lower temps like other fuels.
TeamGreen
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8/4/2016 2:00pm
T4 and VPR should be Pour-n-Go fuels for a 450 MX engine.

U4.4 may run a little lean.

As others have said, the fuels w/ higher Ox content will probably need a remap to get the real-performance gains.

T4 and VPR will run waaaay better than pump fuels (91-93). They've got chemistry that you ain't going to find in 91/93 pump fuel.

At Down's Energy, in Corona, they have some pump 100/110 that's a really good deal.

Note: The KTM Demo Rig (The Big Semi) puts T4 in the bikes.

As for "mixing": 1 gallon of pump 91/93 (Chevron or Shell NON Ethanol) and 1 gallon of U4.4 makes a very interesting fuel...that makes for great throttle response for a VERY good price.

TeamGreen
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8/4/2016 2:01pm
Zaugg wrote:
ETS makes pretty good fuel. Couple race teams run it because it's stable and won't boil at lower temps like other fuels.
I've never been around a worse smelling fuel...ever.
8/4/2016 2:03pm
I've ran lots of U4.4, its great gas. I ran many times on my stock Honda 450 before all the parts and when I did put a higher compression piston in... it was clean ad could be..
Try it..youl notice the horsepower and throttle response increase immediately..
YZ125H1
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8/4/2016 2:09pm Edited Date/Time 8/4/2016 2:19pm
Crash11 wrote:
There are so many mis-informed people in this industry when it comes to octane rating of the fuel they use. If your engine is still stock...
There are so many mis-informed people in this industry when it comes to octane rating of the fuel they use. If your engine is still stock, then use the exact octane recommended by the manufacturer. If it is modified, then you will have to do a little trial and error to find out what octane you can get away with before you get knock. You always want the lowest octane you can get that avoids knock. Higher octanes burn slower, so you are actually sacrificing a little power for nothing.

Also, the octane # on the pump is not always what you go by. If your manufacturer specs an octane that is "research method" or "motor method" then you need to deviate from what it says on the pump. Pump gas octane is research + motor / 2. Research method tends to yield about 8-10 higher octane rating than motor. So 91 at the pump is about 96 research method and 86 motor method.

It's good to avoid ethanol because it can cause corrosion to fuel lines and seals.
Your last comment may have been true when ethanol first came out. I'm sure nowadays the seals/lines are compatible with ethanol fuels. I've never had any issues using ethanol just don't let bike sit long and clean carb.

I'm throwing around the idea of trying T2 at some point. T4 seems like a great choice for the 4 strokers on a budget.
kkawboy14
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8/4/2016 2:20pm
Jmicmoto13 wrote:
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat...
Ran 110 Sunoco purple in my 250sx and ran like a champ. Took the top end off and the piston was so clean you could eat off of it. No carbon build up and crisp throttle. I run 100LL aviation fuel now for the unlimited shelf life. And it's only $36 for 10 gallons.
sozo wrote:
I believe this is leaded, some bikes can not take lead due to coatings on valve in valve guides...
Skidaddle wrote:
Valve seats love lead. What 4 stroke in the world can't benefit from leaded fuel? Even when not needed, unleaded specific hardened valve seats wont say...
Valve seats love lead.
What 4 stroke in the world can't benefit from leaded fuel? Even when not needed, unleaded specific hardened valve seats wont say no to lead.
Exactly!

Leaded is just the cheapest way to raise octane.
suzrm144
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Ventura, CA, USA
8/4/2016 2:42pm
Aviation fuel 100 octane
8/4/2016 2:46pm
suzrm144 wrote:
Aviation fuel 100 octane
Can't beat it for the price and it never goes bad.
swtwtwtw
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Apple Valley, CA, USA
8/4/2016 3:31pm
VP makes another oxegenated fuel, HP-101....12 bucks a gallon from my gas wholesaler. It certainly makes a difference even at 50/50 with 91. It does make the bike a bit harder to start "cold", but that is because an already lean circuit is even leaner with the race gas. Otherwise, bike pulls a 1/2 gear higher everywhere on the tracks I ride.
nascarnate326
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Charlotte, MI, USA
8/4/2016 3:31pm
T4 or ethanol free 91.

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